Your Views on The Trinity

[Tranquil]

If Jesus pre-existed as God then that would contradict Scripture and mean that Jesus changed. Jesus is a man, was always a man, will always be a man. No way around this.

Hebrews 13 (NIV)​

8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

Revelation 1:8 isn't about Jesus being the Almighty. If you will check the context, Revelation 1:4-8, you should see the following:

Jesus isn't "Him who is and who was and who is to come" therefore he isn't the Lord God Almighty. Case closed.

Revelation 1​

4John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:​

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.​

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.​

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

Those don't say Jesus is himself eternal life, but rather eternal life is something that can be found in him. Furthermore, Jesus didn't inherently have life in himself or the authority to give eternal life, but rather those are privileges granted to him by the Father. The Father is the Only True God.

​

John 17 (NIV)​

2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.​

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John 5 (NIV)​

26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. ​

​

Eternal life was something revealed by or manifested in Jesus. The Word of life, or eternal life, is a thing, not a person. It's something someone can have by knowing the Only True God and Jesus (John 17:3)

1 John 1 (NIV)​

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.​

That is not Jesus in Rev. 1:8. Please see what I said above.


Jesus did not create all things. The grammar of John 1:2,3 proves that the God the Word was with is the Creator, not the Word being the Creator.

John 1 (NIV)​

2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.​

This supports that fact that ALL THINGS are from the Father, not Jesus.



In Psalm 45:6, this same line of text appears, and it's used to refer to a human with a queen. When the writer of Hebrews transferred to concept to Jesus it was not their intention to say Jesus is God, but since capitalization didn't exist in the Hebrew and Greek, just making it capitalized gives the wrong impression.


Scripture says Jesus and "men" were given this authority to forgive sins. Means Jesus and the other men didn't inherently have this power, but it was given to them. Means it was not a Jesus exclusive.

Matthew 9 (KJV)​

6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.​

Being bowed down to as the son of God doesn't mean Jesus accepted worship as God. Being Son of God doesn't mean Jesus is God. There are many sons of God who are not God. Many examples of kings or people of status accepting or giving worship in the Bible without it meaning they were accepting it as God.

Jesus is never given the kind of spirit and truth worship reserved only for God in Scripture.

True worshippers only worship the Father. This proves Jesus is not God.

John 4 (NIV)​

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”​

Hebrews 1:6 proves Jesus isn't YHWH. YHWH said He is the only God.

Isaiah 45 (NIV)​

5I am the Lord, and there is no other;​

apart from me there is no God.​

I will strengthen you,​

though you have not acknowledged me,​

Scripture already teaches what is in the heart of man. This is something everyone can know.

Jeremiah 17 (NIV)​

9The heart is deceitful above all things​

and beyond cure.​

Who can understand it?​

This doesn't teach that Jesus is omnipresent. Jesus will have a physical return to earth in the future. He isn't here yet.

Revelation 1 (NIV)​

7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”​

and “every eye will see him,​

even those who pierced him”;​

and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”​

The Father gave Jesus that authority so he didn't inherently have it.

John 17 (NIV)​

2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.​

Jesus does not fit the definitions of God.

There are dozens of names, titles, qualities, and statuses that Jesus doesn't share with God.


At your service,
Brother Runningman, One God and Father of all, over all, the only true God.

Genesis 1:1 says that “God created the heavens and the earth.” Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe. It's a Trinity thing.

 

[David Koberstein]

Genesis 1:1 says that “God created the heavens and the earth.” Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe. It's a Trinity thing.

Yes it is. Thank you (Toda Raba) for your response. Shalom

 

[MTMattie]

You are exactly right. All you can see is very awkward interpretations not only of Heb 13:8 but also of the proper explanation of it. Then you pull up Num 23 as if God incarnate would be a liar. Are you not even able to tell the difference between what God was saying in the Exodus and what he did through his Incarnate Son 2000 years ago? That is utterly astounding. You make a universal rule as if it were limiting God's ability to send his Son incarnate among the people. You have a weak perception of God's ability. If you do not perceive God even being able to send his Son, I think you are not only off doctrinally speaking.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Runningman]

Genesis 1:1 says that “God created the heavens and the earth.” Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe. It's a Trinity thing.

In Colossians 1:16... is Jesus a human in this context? (Colossians 1:15-20)

 

[mikesw]

In Colossians 1:16... is Jesus a human in this context? (Colossians 1:15-20)

What is your confusion? Maybe if you read the posts by Christians here you might understand what is happening here.
The obvious recognition is that Jesus is not just limited to human. We just came to know his physical incarnation through scripture. Nothing else has made better sense.
The problem you seem to have is that you try to reflect the human situation of Jesus back before the incarnation. In your case you need to basically accept the observations of other people about this pre-existence of Christ to compensate for your weaknesses.

Is the problem you are having just that you cannot imagine God being able to intervene in his creation in whatever way he wants? There is some generally recognized limit on God. Namely, God is limited in his actions based on the commitments of his promises. Beyond that, God can do what he has planned in the fashion he planned it.

 

[Tranquil]

In Colossians 1:16... is Jesus a human in this context? (Colossians 1:15-20)

Jesus is one Person, fully God and fully man. This is what is called the hypostatic union. Jesus has two natures—one human and one divine—that cannot be separated. For all of time, He will be the "God-man" both fully human and fully God, two distinct natures contained in one Being.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Your Views on The Trinity​

God is ONE. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's enough, I'll ask for details later (if I even have to).

 

[TomL]

In Colossians 1:16... is Jesus a human in this context? (Colossians 1:15-20)

What human do you know of whom it may be stated

Colossians 1:16 (LEB) — 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him,

 

[Keiw1]

As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).

He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).

He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).

The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).

Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My LORD and my God!” (John 20:26–29).

Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).

The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’ ” (John 1:48 NKJV).

Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).

He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.


Doug Batchelor, The Trinity

Psalm 110:1- quoted at Matt 22:44= The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord( Jesus) sit at MY right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.--- see MY and I = not Jesus. As well one CANNOT sit at their own right hand.

 

[mikesw]

Psalm 110:1- quoted at Matt 22:44= The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord( Jesus) sit at MY right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.--- see MY and I = not Jesus. As well one CANNOT sit at their own right hand.

So you are ignorant of what the Father and the Son can do within the Godhead, so you use that to deny who Christ is. You think God is made in your image instead of you being made in God's image.

 

[TomL]

Psalm 110:1- quoted at Matt 22:44= The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord( Jesus) sit at MY right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.--- see MY and I = not Jesus. As well one CANNOT sit at their own right hand.

Um It is a fallacy to hold trinitarians argue that Jesus and the Father are the same person

 

[Runningman]

You are exactly right. All you can see is very awkward interpretations not only of Heb 13:8 but also of the proper explanation of it. Then you pull up Num 23 as if God incarnate would be a liar. Are you not even able to tell the difference between what God was saying in the Exodus and what he did through his Incarnate Son 2000 years ago? That is utterly astounding. You make a universal rule as if it were limiting God's ability to send his Son incarnate among the people. You have a weak perception of God's ability. If you do not perceive God even being able to send his Son, I think you are not only off doctrinally speaking.

Your argument is that Jesus isn't the same yesterday, today, and forever. Well, Jesus is still a man in heaven and God isn't. When you going to be honest?

1 Timothy 2 (KJV)
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is one Person, fully God and fully man. This is what is called the hypostatic union. Jesus has two natures—one human and one divine—that cannot be separated. For all of time, He will be the "God-man" both fully human and fully God, two distinct natures contained in one Being.

Colossians 1:15-20 proves Jesus isn't the invisible God and that he was a human that died on the cross. God didn't create literally "all things" through a human, but rather created "all things" in the church through Jesus. God was with Jesus giving him the teachings, miracle power, authority, gospel, etc. Jesus is a prophet and through the words God gave to Jesus, God created the spiritual frame work in heaven and earth that composes the church. Jesus is also created..

Read it again and see if you get it now.

Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[Runningman]

What is your confusion? Maybe if you read the posts by Christians here you might understand what is happening here.
The obvious recognition is that Jesus is not just limited to human. We just came to know his physical incarnation through scripture. Nothing else has made better sense.
The problem you seem to have is that you try to reflect the human situation of Jesus back before the incarnation. In your case you need to basically accept the observations of other people about this pre-existence of Christ to compensate for your weaknesses.

Is the problem you are having just that you cannot imagine God being able to intervene in his creation in whatever way he wants? There is some generally recognized limit on God. Namely, God is limited in his actions based on the commitments of his promises. Beyond that, God can do what he has planned in the fashion he planned it.

Colossians 1:15-20 talks about Jesus being a created human. Pretty hard to be a creator when you're completely incapable of doing that. Why do you think that Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the image of God? That means he isn't God. Is the Father ever called the image of God? No?

 

[mikesw]

Your argument is that Jesus isn't the same yesterday, today, and forever. Well, Jesus is still a man in heaven and God isn't. When you going to be honest?

1 Timothy 2 (KJV)
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It is nice you quote Jesus as part of the trinity. Did you have an argument that you want to make against scripture?

My argument is that scripture shows that one of the Trinity was incarnate per scripture. We know him as Jesus. Which part of scripture have you chosen to deny today?

 

[mikesw]

Reply

Colossians 1:15-20 talks about Jesus being a created human. Pretty hard to be a creator when you're completely incapable of doing that. Why do you think that Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the image of God? That means he isn't God. Is the Father ever called the image of God? No?

I cannot believe you still don't understand that passage.

 

[Runningman]

It is nice you quote Jesus as part of the trinity. Did you have an argument that you want to make against scripture?

My argument is that scripture shows that one of the Trinity was incarnate per scripture. We know him as Jesus. Which part of scripture have you chosen to deny today?

If Jesus has always been the same then he never incarnated. He would have already been a man. Do you remember when Jesus said he is a man who descended from heaven? (hint: it's in John 3 and 6) Catching on yet?

 

[Runningman]

I cannot believe you still don't understand that passage.

Seems we are remembering this differently. I remember teaching you guys the truth, you all rejecting it, you all telling me your story, which is false, then nothing changed. Now I will press forward repeating the same truth. What did you expect to happen? Dude, go ahead and forget the idea of me converting to Protestantism or something like that. LoL that will never happen. Ever. I have already seen too much to know better.

 

[mikesw]

If Jesus has always been the same then he never incarnated. He would have already been a man. Do you remember when Jesus said he is a man who descended from heaven? (hint: it's in John 3 and 6) Catching on yet?

I've caught on. You have not understood any of the passages you quote. Jesus is the Son of God who descended from heaven and was born among men. God in flesh dwelt among mankind. I guess you have not heard that.

 

[mikesw]

Seems we are remembering this differently. I remember teaching you guys the truth, you all rejecting it, you all telling me your story, which is false, then nothing changed. Now I will press forward repeating the same truth. What did you expect to happen? Dude, go ahead and forget the idea of me converting to Protestantism or something like that. LoL that will never happen. Ever. I have already seen too much to know better.

I'm not totally giving up on you coming to Christ, but it seems more unlikely to happen day by day. I'm not here to convert you to Christ, only God has the possibility of changing your nature as the opportunity may come to you in the future.
So far you have had to corrupt the understanding of each passage you have shared. It is probably some spiritual battle acting against you.