Your Views on The Trinity

[Adherent]

We know that not everyone worships God the Father plus the fact that there are religions which deny that God is a “father” in any sense whatsoever or who do believe that the “Father” is an exalted man with a male body. The same is true for those who deny that the Father is a separate Person from the Son and the Spirit.

Just as it is possible to preach “another” Jesus, it is also possible to be guilty of preaching “another” Father.
4 For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received and welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!
2 Cor. 11:4
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Gal. 1:8

For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
Matt. 24:24

Until someone defines what he means by “the Father,” it cannot be assumed that he is referring to the first Person of the Holy Trinity.

Today, some of the radicals most powerful attacks on God the Father come from the religion of Islam, from the radical feminist, from liberalism, from Mormonism, and from various other religious movements.

 

[mikesw]

We know that not everyone worships God the Father plus the fact that there are religions which deny that God is a “father” in any sense whatsoever or who do believe that the “Father” is an exalted man with a male body. The same is true for those who deny that the Father is a separate Person from the Son and the Spirit.

Just as it is possible to preach “another” Jesus, it is also possible to be guilty of preaching “another” Father.
4 For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received and welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!
2 Cor. 11:4
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Gal. 1:8

For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
Matt. 24:24

Until someone defines what he means by “the Father,” it cannot be assumed that he is referring to the first Person of the Holy Trinity.

Today, some of the radicals most powerful attacks on God the Father come from the religion of Islam, from the radical feminist, from liberalism, from Mormonism, and from various other religious movements.

Like any other term we use, it has been necessary to be clearer. I could not just speak of the divinity of Christ. I had to add that his divinity is in the Godhead.

 

[101G]

The doctrine of the Trinity

The subject for this study is the doctrine of the Trinity, a most important doctrine in the Scripture. Now, let me simply point out that this doctrine is indeed found in the Word of God. We

player.lightcast.com

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

this is a spirit not to believe. because as he said everyone believe Genesis 1:1... good, but did not God said in Isaiah 44:24 HE WAS "ALONE". "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

now, if God was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", then there is no other Person, or Person(s) with him. for the term "ALONE" destroys any trinity. for "ALONE" means, having no one else present ... HELLO, think people.

101G.

 

[Keiw1]

@Keiw1 Watch this video ................................................. and learn

I already know truth on the matter. God = the Father=YHVH(Jehovah)

 

[MTMattie]

I already know truth on the matter. God = the Father=YHVH(Jehovah)

No you do not.

The third chapter of Exodus describes the encounter between Moses and God about the Lord’s name: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, “I AM has sent me to you”’” (Exodus 3:13–14, NASB).

The phrase I am who I am in the Hebrew is YHWH, often translated as “LORD,” “Yahweh,” or “Jehovah,” and is referred to in theology as the tetragrammaton (“a word having four letters”). The literal translation of the term is “I be that I be,” a statement that makes reference to God’s self-existence—He is not dependent upon anything else for His existence.

One of the foundational Christian doctrines is that Jesus is God. He is the Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh described in Exodus 3. This teaching can be difficult to grasp because the Bible also says there is only one God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The Bible’s claim that only a single God exists is called monotheism. The doctrine of Jesus being God does not mean that more than one God exists (polytheism) or that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity equates to there being three gods (tritheism) or that there is one God who represents Himself as one person in three different ways or modes (modalism).

Instead, Christianity teaches that there is one God who exists in triune fashion as three Persons within one God, i.e., one “what” but three “who’s”; a plurality of Persons who are one in essence. Referencing the depth of this doctrine, A. W. Tozer writes, “Our sincerest effort to grasp the incomprehensible mystery of the Trinity must remain forever futile, and only by deepest reverence can it be saved from actual presumption. We cover our deep ignorance with words, but we are ashamed to wonder, we are afraid to whisper ‘mystery’” (The Knowledge of the Holy, p. 18).

The Bible affirms the Son of God’s place in the Godhead in both the Old and New Testaments. One passage affirming the Son’s deity in the Old Testament is Psalm 2: “The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, ‘Let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!’ . . . Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!” (Psalm 2:1–3, 12, NASB).

In the New Testament, Jesus affirms His deity in many places. In His general teachings, He refers to Himself in the same way God is described in the Old Testament and does the same in twenty of His parables. Examples include the following:


God in the Old Testament
I AM (Exodus 3:14–15; Isaiah 48:12)
The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
The Light (Psalm 27:1)
The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezekiel 36:9)
First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)

Jesus’ Reference to Himself
I AM (John 8:58)
The Shepherd (John 10:11)
The Light (John 8:12)
The Rock (Matthew 7:24)
Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18)
Judge of all (John 5:22)
The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1)
Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31)
The Sower (Matthew 13:3–9)
First and the Last (Revelation 1:17–18)

Jesus said many things that equated Himself with Yahweh: “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9) and “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). He asked God, “Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). He said, “My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working” (John 5:17).

In addition, Jesus accepted worship nine times in the gospels, forgave sins, and commanded His disciples to pray in His name. Jesus never said—as other prophets did—“Thus says the Lord”; rather, Jesus said, “I say,” and commanded His disciples to baptize in His name.

The New Testament writers also refer to Jesus as God many times (e.g., Matthew 3:16–17; John 1:1–3,14; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:5–8, 9–11; Colossians 1:16–19; 2:9–10; 1 Timothy 6:15; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:8; 13:8; Revelation 1:8, 17; 2:8; 17:14; 19:16; 21:6; 22:13).

In conclusion, the teaching of Scripture is that Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the I AM, the God of the Old Testament. (From Got Questions_)

 

[Keiw1]

No you do not.

The third chapter of Exodus describes the encounter between Moses and God about the Lord’s name: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, “I AM has sent me to you”’” (Exodus 3:13–14, NASB).

The phrase I am who I am in the Hebrew is YHWH, often translated as “LORD,” “Yahweh,” or “Jehovah,” and is referred to in theology as the tetragrammaton (“a word having four letters”). The literal translation of the term is “I be that I be,” a statement that makes reference to God’s self-existence—He is not dependent upon anything else for His existence.

One of the foundational Christian doctrines is that Jesus is God. He is the Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh described in Exodus 3. This teaching can be difficult to grasp because the Bible also says there is only one God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The Bible’s claim that only a single God exists is called monotheism. The doctrine of Jesus being God does not mean that more than one God exists (polytheism) or that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity equates to there being three gods (tritheism) or that there is one God who represents Himself as one person in three different ways or modes (modalism).

Instead, Christianity teaches that there is one God who exists in triune fashion as three Persons within one God, i.e., one “what” but three “who’s”; a plurality of Persons who are one in essence. Referencing the depth of this doctrine, A. W. Tozer writes, “Our sincerest effort to grasp the incomprehensible mystery of the Trinity must remain forever futile, and only by deepest reverence can it be saved from actual presumption. We cover our deep ignorance with words, but we are ashamed to wonder, we are afraid to whisper ‘mystery’” (The Knowledge of the Holy, p. 18).

The Bible affirms the Son of God’s place in the Godhead in both the Old and New Testaments. One passage affirming the Son’s deity in the Old Testament is Psalm 2: “The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, ‘Let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!’ . . . Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!” (Psalm 2:1–3, 12, NASB).

In the New Testament, Jesus affirms His deity in many places. In His general teachings, He refers to Himself in the same way God is described in the Old Testament and does the same in twenty of His parables. Examples include the following:


God in the Old Testament
I AM (Exodus 3:14–15; Isaiah 48:12)
The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
The Light (Psalm 27:1)
The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezekiel 36:9)
First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)

Jesus’ Reference to Himself
I AM (John 8:58)
The Shepherd (John 10:11)
The Light (John 8:12)
The Rock (Matthew 7:24)
Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18)
Judge of all (John 5:22)
The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1)
Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31)
The Sower (Matthew 13:3–9)
First and the Last (Revelation 1:17–18)

Jesus said many things that equated Himself with Yahweh: “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9) and “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). He asked God, “Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). He said, “My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working” (John 5:17).

In addition, Jesus accepted worship nine times in the gospels, forgave sins, and commanded His disciples to pray in His name. Jesus never said—as other prophets did—“Thus says the Lord”; rather, Jesus said, “I say,” and commanded His disciples to baptize in His name.

The New Testament writers also refer to Jesus as God many times (e.g., Matthew 3:16–17; John 1:1–3,14; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:5–8, 9–11; Colossians 1:16–19; 2:9–10; 1 Timothy 6:15; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:8; 13:8; Revelation 1:8, 17; 2:8; 17:14; 19:16; 21:6; 22:13).

In conclusion, the teaching of Scripture is that Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the I AM, the God of the Old Testament. (From Got Questions_)

Catholicism put-i am that i am in the OT. The Hebrew scholars say that statement translates-i will be what i will be. You are mislead by Catholicism translating. He told Moses his name was either-YHWH or YHVH= Jehovah.

 

[mikesw]

Catholicism put-i am that i am in the OT. The Hebrew scholars say that statement translates-i will be what i will be. You are mislead by Catholicism translating. He told Moses his name was either-YHWH or YHVH= Jehovah.

You still push that stupid idea that JWs and Unitarians push, namely that Roman Catholics are deceiving the world when the concept of Christ Jesus in the Godhead preceded that idea. The real message is that Christians from the beginning recognized the deity of Christ. So you should be saying that Christians misperceived Christ as divinity in the Godhead, even in Paul's letters. They even changed it so the scriptures in the hands of Jews was changed to testify to two powers in heaven. But some people, JWs and Unitarians, have found a new concept that denies the testimony of scripture because they have a special diminished view of Christ that they want to share with everyone. That is how bad your argument is.

 

[Runningman]

You still push that stupid idea that JWs and Unitarians push, namely that Roman Catholics are deceiving the world when the concept of Christ Jesus in the Godhead preceded that idea. The real message is that Christians from the beginning recognized the deity of Christ. So you should be saying that Christians misperceived Christ as divinity in the Godhead, even in Paul's letters. They even changed it so the scriptures in the hands of Jews was changed to testify to two powers in heaven. But some people, JWs and Unitarians, have found a new concept that denies the testimony of scripture because they have a special diminished view of Christ that they want to share with everyone. That is how bad your argument is.

This is a very bad argument. Have you ever heard of the first council of Nicaea or the Nicene creed? The Trinitarian philosophy was hashed out amid a time Christianity was becoming the dominant religion in the Roman empire, but still deeply divided on theological and religious grounds.

There were many pagan religions with their pantheon of gods the Arians with their Biblical God and the Trinitarians with their non-biblical god that they claim is Biblical.

The purpose of all of this was to standardize the books of what would become the Bible, create something palatable for pagans, and satisfy the Trinitarians and keep the Scriptures just vague enough so as to not deify a human so as to not send the Christians into full blown riot mode.

It was all extremely political and divisive, but that is where the pagan concept of the Trinity came from; it is not in Scripture, hence the formation of creeds to explicitly explain and describe. Trinitarian gods and compound gods of the sort have been in circulation since antiquity. All you need to do is study the historical and Biblical concept of YHWH to know how the Jews and Christians understand Him accurately.

This passage doesn't involve anyone else aside from the Father, YHWH.

Isaiah 45 (KJV)
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Keiw1]

You still push that stupid idea that JWs and Unitarians push, namely that Roman Catholics are deceiving the world when the concept of Christ Jesus in the Godhead preceded that idea. The real message is that Christians from the beginning recognized the deity of Christ. So you should be saying that Christians misperceived Christ as divinity in the Godhead, even in Paul's letters. They even changed it so the scriptures in the hands of Jews was changed to testify to two powers in heaven. But some people, JWs and Unitarians, have found a new concept that denies the testimony of scripture because they have a special diminished view of Christ that they want to share with everyone. That is how bad your argument is.

Jeromes vulgate was translated from a different Latin version that was corrupt to start with. He as well removed Gods name= recorded history facts.
Here is Jesus' view--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--
Paul teaches-1Cor 8:6-There is one God to all=the Father.= an inspired bible writer.

 

[MTMattie]

Catholicism put-i am that i am in the OT. The Hebrew scholars say that statement translates-i will be what i will be. You are mislead by Catholicism translating. He told Moses his name was either-YHWH or YHVH= Jehovah.

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה You translate this. Its Hebrew... I am sure you have your means to accomplish that.

Since Moses wrote Exodus, knowing the dates of his lifetime provides a starting point for determining when the book was written. Moses lived between 1520 and 1400 BC, so the composition of Exodus occurred during that 120-year period.

There WAS NO Pope, or Catholic alive until well after c. 1430 years after Moses was dead and Jesus also was crucified.

So the translation from the above COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE BY A CATHOLIC THEN. And the translations below would NOT have been influenced by the RCC.

I AM in different languages – Ex. 3:14

Is it likely that all Hebrew and Theology scholars across the globe, all made a huge translation error?

2 Mos. 3:14 Gud sade till Mose: “Jag är den Jag Är.” Och han sade vidare: “Så skall du säga till Israels barn: Jag Är har sänt mig till er.” (SFB)
14 Gud sade till Mose: »Jag är den jag är.» Och han sade vidare: »Så skall du säga till Israels barn: ‘Jag är’ har sänt mig till eder. (1917)
14 Og Gud sa til Moses: Jeg er den jeg er ; og han sa: Så skal du si til Israels barn: “Jeg er” har sendt mig til eder. (Det norsk bibelselskap 1930)
14 Þá sagði Guð við Móse: “Ég er sá, sem ég er.” Og hann sagði: “Svo skalt þú segja Ísraelsmönnum: ,Ég er` sendi mig til yðar.” Icelandic Bible
14 Alors Dieu dit à Moïse:—Je suis celui qui est. Puis il ajouta: Voici ce que tu diras aux Israélites: Je suis m’a envoyé vers vous. (La Bible du Semeur)
14 Dieu dit à Moïse: Je suis celui qui suis. Et il ajouta: C’est ainsi que tu répondras aux enfants d’Israël: Celui qui s’appelle «Je suis» m’a envoyé vers vous. Nouvelle Edition de Genève – NEG1979
14 Y respondió Dios a Moisés: YO SOY EL QUE SOY. Y dijo: Así dirás a los hijos de Israel: YO SOY me envió a vosotros. Reina-Valera 1960
14 Dios dijo a Moisés:— Soy el que soy.Y añadió:— Esto responderás a los israelitas: “Yo soy” me envía a ustedes. La Palabra (Hispanoamérica)
14 Gud svarede Moses: “Jeg er den, jeg er!” Og han sagde: “Således skal du sige til Israeliterne: JEG ER har sendt mig til eder!” (Dette er Biblen på dansk)
14 Dio disse a Mosè: «Io sono colui che sono!». Poi disse: «Dirai agli Israeliti: Io-Sono mi ha mandato a voi». (Conferenza Episcopale Italiana)
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” (ESV)
14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Geneva Bible)
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. (KJV)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[c]I AM has sent me to you.’” (NASB)
14 And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH-YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you. (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’” (NIV)
14 Gott sprach zu Mose: “Ich bin, der ich bin!“ Und er sprach: So sollst du zu den Kindern Israel sagen:“Ich bin“, der hat mich zu euch gesandt. (Schlachter 1951)
14 “Zijn naam is: Ik ben Die Ik ben“, was het antwoord. “Zeg maar tegen hen: ‘Ik Ben’ heeft mij gestuurd! (Het Boek, NL)
14 Respondeu Deus a Moisés: EU SOU O QUE SOU. Disse mais: Assim dirás aos olhos de Israel: EU SOU me enviou a vós. (João Ferreira de Almeida Atualizada)
14 God said to Moshe, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be],” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’ (Complete Jewish Bible)

We all get that you hold a great disdain for anything Catholic.

Be glad Martin Luther steps up with his 95 Theses nailed to the church door.

I have issues with him. I have issues with John Calvin.

I do not have issues with a thorough research into translations .

And the jury is still out as to where Frankie plays a role in end times..... For it is indicated.

Get your facts straight and quit saying it was that church.

That church is the one that was originally started by Peter....And Peter was the one appointed by Jesus.

So if you are so against it... you best get down on your knees to Jesus and beg forgiveness because it was not
the church that said having a personal relationship with Jesus doing the translations... It was not the church who is currently saying all religions lead to God translating either.

Over the generations things have worsened... I agree... but you act like it was the RCC church that nailed Jesus to the cross.... It was not.

Study to show thyself approved.... 2 Tim 2:15 and you are lacking in that

‎

 

[Keiw1]

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה You translate this. Its Hebrew... I am sure you have your means to accomplish that.

Since Moses wrote Exodus, knowing the dates of his lifetime provides a starting point for determining when the book was written. Moses lived between 1520 and 1400 BC, so the composition of Exodus occurred during that 120-year period.

There WAS NO Pope, or Catholic alive until well after c. 1430 years after Moses was dead and Jesus also was crucified.

So the translation from the above COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE BY A CATHOLIC THEN. And the translations below would NOT have been influenced by the RCC.

I AM in different languages – Ex. 3:14

Is it likely that all Hebrew and Theology scholars across the globe, all made a huge translation error?



We all get that you hold a great disdain for anything Catholic.

Be glad Martin Luther steps up with his 95 Theses nailed to the church door.

I have issues with him. I have issues with John Calvin.

I do not have issues with a thorough research into translations .

And the jury is still out as to where Frankie plays a role in end times..... For it is indicated.

Get your facts straight and quit saying it was that church.

That church is the one that was originally started by Peter....And Peter was the one appointed by Jesus.

So if you are so against it... you best get down on your knees to Jesus and beg forgiveness because it was not
the church that said having a personal relationship with Jesus doing the translations... It was not the church who is currently saying all religions lead to God translating either.

Over the generations things have worsened... I agree... but you act like it was the RCC church that nailed Jesus to the cross.... It was not.

Study to show thyself approved.... 2 Tim 2:15 and you are lacking in that

‎

The translating all occurred in the 4th century by the religion that came out of Rome=Catholicism.
Peter served the Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHVH(Jehovah) as did Jesus and EVERY bible writer, thus Catholicism was not the religion Jesus began.

 

[Tranquil]

As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).

He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).

He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).

The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).

Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My LORD and my God!” (John 20:26–29).

Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).

The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’ ” (John 1:48 NKJV).

Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).

He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.


Doug Batchelor, The Trinity

 

[MTMattie]

The translating all occurred in the 4th century by the religion that came out of Rome=Catholicism.
Peter served the Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHVH(Jehovah) as did Jesus and EVERY bible writer, thus Catholicism was not the religion Jesus began.

You mean the one Jesus said to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.... That GOD????????????????????

Again... 3 in 1.

Im sensing a theme.... aren't you?

I gave you the original language and asked that you translate because YOU said you do your own translations.

Now here is an opportunity to show us all the "RIGHT" way

As to what Jesus did or did not start.... He DID start it with Peter. And Peter, try to deny as much as you can was the RCC churches
first POPE. 1st Century when all the gospels of the new testament were being written.

I dont care that you insist the 4th century translations are wrong.

I want you to post right here... not at another link... what you translate those early verses to be saying that were written
in the 1st century.... give or take 5 or 10 years

 

[Runningman]

As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).

If Jesus pre-existed as God then that would contradict Scripture and mean that Jesus changed. Jesus is a man, was always a man, will always be a man. No way around this.

Hebrews 13 (NIV)​

8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

Revelation 1:8 isn't about Jesus being the Almighty. If you will check the context, Revelation 1:4-8, you should see the following:

Jesus isn't "Him who is and who was and who is to come" therefore he isn't the Lord God Almighty. Case closed.

Revelation 1​

4John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:​

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.​

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.​

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).

Those don't say Jesus is himself eternal life, but rather eternal life is something that can be found in him. Furthermore, Jesus didn't inherently have life in himself or the authority to give eternal life, but rather those are privileges granted to him by the Father. The Father is the Only True God.

​

John 17 (NIV)​

2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.​

​

John 5 (NIV)​

26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. ​

​

Eternal life was something revealed by or manifested in Jesus. The Word of life, or eternal life, is a thing, not a person. It's something someone can have by knowing the Only True God and Jesus (John 17:3)

1 John 1 (NIV)​

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.​

He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).

That is not Jesus in Rev. 1:8. Please see what I said above.

He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).

Jesus did not create all things. The grammar of John 1:2,3 proves that the God the Word was with is the Creator, not the Word being the Creator.

John 1 (NIV)​

2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.​

This supports that fact that ALL THINGS are from the Father, not Jesus.

The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).

In Psalm 45:6, this same line of text appears, and it's used to refer to a human with a queen. When the writer of Hebrews transferred to concept to Jesus it was not their intention to say Jesus is God, but since capitalization didn't exist in the Hebrew and Greek, just making it capitalized gives the wrong impression.

Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).

Scripture says Jesus and "men" were given this authority to forgive sins. Means Jesus and the other men didn't inherently have this power, but it was given to them. Means it was not a Jesus exclusive.

Matthew 9 (KJV)​

6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.​

Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My LORD and my God!” (John 20:26–29).

Being bowed down to as the son of God doesn't mean Jesus accepted worship as God. Being Son of God doesn't mean Jesus is God. There are many sons of God who are not God. Many examples of kings or people of status accepting or giving worship in the Bible without it meaning they were accepting it as God.

Jesus is never given the kind of spirit and truth worship reserved only for God in Scripture.

True worshippers only worship the Father. This proves Jesus is not God.

John 4 (NIV)​

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”​

Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).

Hebrews 1:6 proves Jesus isn't YHWH. YHWH said He is the only God.

Isaiah 45 (NIV)​

5I am the Lord, and there is no other;​

apart from me there is no God.​

I will strengthen you,​

though you have not acknowledged me,​

The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’ ” (John 1:48 NKJV).

Scripture already teaches what is in the heart of man. This is something everyone can know.

Jeremiah 17 (NIV)​

9The heart is deceitful above all things​

and beyond cure.​

Who can understand it?​

Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).

This doesn't teach that Jesus is omnipresent. Jesus will have a physical return to earth in the future. He isn't here yet.

Revelation 1 (NIV)​

7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”​

and “every eye will see him,​

even those who pierced him”;​

and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”​

He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

The Father gave Jesus that authority so he didn't inherently have it.

John 17 (NIV)​

2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.​

Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.

Jesus does not fit the definitions of God.

There are dozens of names, titles, qualities, and statuses that Jesus doesn't share with God.

Doug Batchelor, The Trinity

At your service,
Brother Runningman, One God and Father of all, over all, the only true God.

 

[mikesw]

If Jesus pre-existed as God then that would contradict Scripture and mean that Jesus changed. Jesus is a man, was always a man, will always be a man. No way around this.

Hebrews 13 (NIV)​

8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

wow. a verse that is supposed to warn people for not assuming a different Jesus than was originally preached. but you don't just become a follower of a false Jesus, you become a teacher of a false Jesus. Although you are mildly right in noting that Jesus will always retain that incarnate aspect of his being, you fail to recognize he is the same person as he is before Abraham. You are so fixated on a corrupt interpretation that you fail to see this is not saying yester-eternity, only yesterday. The writer is telling them to hold to avoid diverse and strange teachings. To the true Christian, this also means not to take a Unitarian heresy to heart. But you have made this the goal of your life. You even want to take on the world to prove your heresy.

 

[Runningman]

wow. a verse that is supposed to warn people for not assuming a different Jesus than was originally preached. but you don't just become a follower of a false Jesus, you become a teacher of a false Jesus. Although you are mildly right in noting that Jesus will always retain that incarnate aspect of his being, you fail to recognize he is the same person as he is before Abraham. You are so fixated on a corrupt interpretation that you fail to see this is not saying yester-eternity, only yesterday. The writer is telling them to hold to avoid diverse and strange teachings. To the true Christian, this also means not to take a Unitarian heresy to heart. But you have made this the goal of your life. You even want to take on the world to prove your heresy.

All I see is you're denying Hebrews 13:8 because it debunks your concept of Jesus. You have a lot of explaining to do if you think God changes or that, contrary to what Hebrews 13:8 says, you believe Jesus wasn't always a human descended from Adam. You have the cart in front of the horse in this case. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a human, which is partially the point. Jesus was always a man in God's foreknowledge, will always be the human messiah, and is currently a man right now.

Numbers 23 (NIV)
19God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

[MTMattie]

All I see is you're denying Hebrews 13:8 because it debunks your concept of Jesus. You have a lot of explaining to do if you think God changes or that, contrary to what Hebrews 13:8 says, you believe Jesus wasn't always a human descended from Adam. You have the cart in front of the horse in this case. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a human, which is partially the point. Jesus was always a man in God's foreknowledge, will always be the human messiah, and is currently a man right now.

Numbers 23 (NIV)
19God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Flesh and Blood Jesus could not have been before Genesis.

Why?

Then he would have been first man and not the couple in Gen 1 or Adam and Eve in Gen 2.

The biblical argument for the pre-existence of Jesus is certainly multi-faceted.

Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.”

In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God.

The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this fact at various points throughout the Gospels and Epistles.

In addition, Jesus’ own actions reveal His divine identity and, as a consequence, His pre-existence.

But not as a man.

 

[mikesw]

All I see is you're denying Hebrews 13:8 because it debunks your concept of Jesus. You have a lot of explaining to do if you think God changes or that, contrary to what Hebrews 13:8 says, you believe Jesus wasn't always a human descended from Adam. You have the cart in front of the horse in this case. Jesus didn't pre-exist as a human, which is partially the point. Jesus was always a man in God's foreknowledge, will always be the human messiah, and is currently a man right now.

Numbers 23 (NIV)
19God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

You are exactly right. All you can see is very awkward interpretations not only of Heb 13:8 but also of the proper explanation of it. Then you pull up Num 23 as if God incarnate would be a liar. Are you not even able to tell the difference between what God was saying in the Exodus and what he did through his Incarnate Son 2000 years ago? That is utterly astounding. You make a universal rule as if it were limiting God's ability to send his Son incarnate among the people. You have a weak perception of God's ability. If you do not perceive God even being able to send his Son, I think you are not only off doctrinally speaking.

 

[David Koberstein]

You are exactly right. All you can see is very awkward interpretations not only of Heb 13:8 but also of the proper explanation of it. Then you pull up Num 23 as if God incarnate would be a liar. Are you not even able to tell the difference between what God was saying in the Exodus and what he did through his Incarnate Son 2000 years ago? That is utterly astounding. You make a universal rule as if it were limiting God's ability to send his Son incarnate among the people. You have a weak perception of God's ability. If you do not perceive God even being able to send his Son, I think you are not only off doctrinally speaking.

He is definitely off.

 

[mikesw]

Flesh and Blood Jesus could not have been before Genesis.

Why?

Then he would have been first man and not the couple in Gen 1 or Adam and Eve in Gen 2.

The biblical argument for the pre-existence of Jesus is certainly multi-faceted.

Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.”

In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God.

The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this fact at various points throughout the Gospels and Epistles.

In addition, Jesus’ own actions reveal His divine identity and, as a consequence, His pre-existence.

But not as a man.

Amazing. I guess I did not keep it in mind that runningman has been arguing against Jesus being incarnate ahead of creation. I agree in a limited sense that the Son did not exist in physical form (as incarnate) until the first-century, but of course he existed from eternity as the Son.