Your Views on The Trinity

[mikesw]

For visitors to the thread that might like a clearer picture of some details of the Trinity (on some issues raised here) ...

Christ Jesus is one of the triune Godhead. The identifier as God tends to refer to the Father but the video on the Granville Sharp Rule is showing me that Christ Jesus is often stated also as God. So there can always be more proofs of his divinity that we might think in our own reading. Christ Jesus is mentioned distinctly since his incarnation was as God's message to humanity. Thus, we have had witnesses who saw God among us, both in standard human flesh and in resurrected state. It is also through Jesus that our lives are reconciled with the Godhead. Consequently Christ Jesus has a name above all names and is our way to see a relationship with God via humanness -- that Christ Jesus is a priest who has known our weaknesses. We can identify with him as he also identifies with us. We know God understands us. As such, Paul mentions God and Christ Jesus so that the Son is glorified so humanity may hear of him and be reconciled.
I think my intuition on this will prove useful and accurate. Anything short of these concepts tends to miss what God has done and miss the triune nature of God.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

For visitors to the thread that might like a clearer picture of some details of the Trinity (on some issues raised here) ...

Christ Jesus is one of the triune Godhead. The identifier as God tends to refer to the Father but the video on the Granville Sharp Rule is showing me that Christ Jesus is often stated also as God. So there can always be more proofs of his divinity that we might think in our own reading. Christ Jesus is mentioned distinctly since his incarnation was as God's message to humanity. Thus, we have had witnesses who saw God among us, both in standard human flesh and in resurrected state. It is also through Jesus that our lives are reconciled with the Godhead. Consequently Christ Jesus has a name above all names and is our way to see a relationship with God via humanness -- that Christ Jesus is a priest who has known our weaknesses. We can identify with him as he also identifies with us. We know God understands us. As such, Paul mentions God and Christ Jesus so that the Son is glorified so humanity may hear of him and be reconciled.
I think my intuition on this will prove useful and accurate. Anything short of these concepts tends to miss what God has done and miss the triune nature of God.

A clear picture always helps.

The concept of the Trinity has emerged as a touchstone of truth, a non-negotiable article of Christian orthodoxy. However, it has been a source of controversy throughout church history, and there remains much confusion about it to this day, with many people misunderstanding it in very serious ways.

Some people think that the doctrine of the Trinity means that Christians believe in three gods. This is the idea of tritheism, which the church has categorically rejected throughout its history. Others see the Trinity as the church’s retreat into contradiction. For instance, I once had a conversation with a man who had a PhD in philosophy, and he objected to Christianity on the grounds that the doctrine of the Trinity represented a manifest contradiction—the idea that one can also be three—at the heart of the Christian faith. Apparently this professor of philosophy was not familiar with the law of non-contradiction. That law states, “A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship.”

When we confess our faith in the Trinity, we affirm that God is one in essence and three in person. Thus, God is one in A and three in B. If we said that He is one in essence and three in essence, that would be a contradiction. If we said He is one in person and three in person, that also would be a contradiction. But as mysterious as the Trinity is, perhaps even above and beyond our capacity to understand it in its fullness, the historic formula is not a contradiction.
R.C. Sproul

 

[7xLightray]

Yes to the question .

God is One Being who is Tri- Personal. Christ claimed to be God and affirmed the Holy Spirit is God as did the Apostle’s who also affirmed the deity of the Son and Holy Spirit.

So you do understand basic understanding! So, now you should understand why I stated this then..

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!​

..because our basic understanding is that three persons ruling as king, are three kings, and three persons that are human, are three humans. And Trinity doctrine goes against that basic understanding. So, no wonder there are those who question that doctrine, because it does not make sense to them. So, it lays in the hands of the trinitarian to explain away, with clarity and patience, this contradiction. Standing up for the faith, but no trinitarian has done that. And this is why trinitarians respond with, "The greatness of God is beyond human understanding, that's why we don't understand how three persons only make one God, but after we go to be with the Lord we will!"

Do you hold to this, the Father is God all on His own, the Son is God all on His own, and the Holy Spirit is God all on His own? Just from that statement alone one reads three Gods, or understands three Gods.

And, I have no idea what your last sentence was for? Not unless it was because I had to show why I was not a binitarian, but that still does not make sense as to why you text that last sentence.

 

[civic]

So you do understand basic understanding! So, now you should understand why I stated this then..

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!​

..because our basic understanding is that three persons ruling as king, are three kings, and three persons that are human, are three humans. And Trinity doctrine goes against that basic understanding. So, no wonder there are those who question that doctrine, because it does not make sense to them. So, it lays in the hands of the trinitarian to explain away, with clarity and patience, this contradiction. Standing up for the faith, but no trinitarian has done that. And this is why trinitarians respond with, "The greatness of God is beyond human understanding, that's why we don't understand how three persons only make one God, but after we go to be with the Lord we will!"

Do you hold to this, the Father is God all on His own, the Son is God all on His own, and the Holy Spirit is God all on His own? Just from that statement alone one reads three Gods, or understands three Gods.

And, I have no idea what your last sentence was for? Not unless it was because I had to show why I was not a binitarian, but that still does not make sense as to why you text that last sentence.

No One God who is 3 Persons, not 3 gods.

 

[civic]

The One body has many members/ persons

The One cluster has many grapes

The One Church has many persons

The One God has 3 Person

The 2 shall become One in marriage.

You don’t understand how One can be plural as demonstrated in many ways in scripture. God even uses plural pronouns such as Us , Our and We.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

The One body has many members/ persons

The One cluster has many grapes

The One Church has many persons

The One God has 3 Person

The 2 shall become One in marriage.

You don’t understand how One can be plural as demonstrated in many ways in scripture. God even uses plural pronouns such as Us , Our and We.

"One Is the Loneliest Number" That changes when you get saved, you become a member of the body of Christ. And you'll never be alone again.
It's a good thing.

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:19-20

 

[7xLightray]

No One God who is 3 Persons, not 3 gods.

Ya I know, that's the Trinity doctrine, but not a reality that humans understand.
Did you want to answer my questions though?

 

[synergy]

We are taught from creation (Rom 1:20), that three persons having the same nature are still three humans. So, three Divine Persons, having the same divine nature, are still three Divine Gods. This is a basic understanding of persons, and how we understand the world, and communicate. And you are turning this upside-down, and saying this is not true of God, so, how does the nature of God make three persons one God?

You failed to prove how my statements were "upside-down" in any shape, form, or even direction.

Three persons ruling as a God, are three Gods. It is the same as three persons ruling as a king are three kings. This is how humans understand this. So, you are going out side of that basic understanding, and need to explain how three persons make one God?

Now you're going outside of the realm of the Nature/Person subject matter by appealing to Kings. Sorry, that is as pure a strawman as they come.

 

[7xLightray]

The One body has many members/ persons

The One cluster has many grapes

The One Church has many persons

The One God has 3 Person

The 2 shall become One in marriage.

You don’t understand how One can be plural as demonstrated in many ways in scripture. God even uses plural pronouns such as Us , Our and We.

Yes, but each person is a being all on their own.
Yes, but each grape is a grape all on their own.
Yes, but each person is a being all on their own.
Yes, but each person is God all on their own (Even stated in a Trinity creed, whether you may agree with this creed, or not, even these well versed trinitarians stated it that way).
Yes, but each person is a being all on their own.

Yes, they are all plural.

What you did here does not answer the reality of three persons which each are a teacher, are three teachers. In reality, not the Trinity doctrine, but in reality, from what we know and understand, three persons which each are God, are three Gods. Though, I know the Trinity doctrine disagrees with this reality, this understanding.

Yes, absolutely agree with this statement "God even uses plural pronouns such as Us , Our and We." But pay close attention to the back and forth of Plurals and Singulars.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us [Plural] make man in our [Plural] image, after our [Plural] likeness. And let them [Plural] have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [Singular] own image, in the image of God he [Singular] created him [Singular]; male and female [Plural] he [Singular] created them [Plural].
And man was made in God's image! How was man made? Geneses 2:22-23. And man was made in God's image!
Adam is not Eve, and Eve is not Adam, yet, Adam is Eve, and Eve is Adam! For Eve was taken out of Adam, made out of the same, made into a woman, but are now two beings from the one man. Made in God's image!

Now, who, or what, is the only person, or thing, in Gen. chapter 1 that God could be speaking of, or to? There is only one, the spirit of God. And what does it say of the spirit of God in Isa. 40:18-22? It says the spirit of God is God's image! Now there is more (like Isa. 40:18 which says, to whom, or what, would you liken and compare; and more), but to keep this Post short, and depending on how you receive this, I can continue with this in next Post, if you like.

 

[7xLightray]

You failed to prove how my statements were "upside-down" in any shape, form, or even direction.

Now you're going outside of the realm of the Nature/Person subject matter by appealing to Kings. Sorry, that is as pure a strawman as they come.

It's right there, I explained it.
What is happening here is you are failing to step out of this doctrine, and apply reality. And fail to understand my point.
No I'm sticking to reality, not kings.

 

[synergy]

It's right there, I explained it.
What is happening here is you are failing to step out of this doctrine, and apply reality. And fail to understand my point.
No I'm sticking to reality, not kings.

We are all human. Singular. As in the Greek. Prove that we're not. You didn't because you can't. So stick to the topic, stop with your subject divergence of Kings, dispense with your strawmen, and face reality. Is that possible for you?

 

[Peterlag]

Click on the link:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/your-views-on-the-trinity.1805/post-99509

You asked me who came to Shemaiah and Nathan. The Word of God. So what are we talking about?

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

 

[Peterlag]

That's because only after did the Word of God become flesh as Jesus. See verse 14. John 1:1 takes nothing away from that fact.

Here we go again with that strawman.You sound like a record player whose needle is stuck.

How does a "self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans" align with Rev 19:11-16 that depicts the Word of God as a Person? Since when is a "self-expression... reason, purpose and plans" ever referred to as a "He"? The main identifying factor of a cult is its dirt poor understanding of English Grammar.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

I don't get how a straw-man applies to what I write and I don't understand the broken record. I am responding to 9 different posts every time I turn on the computer so I never remember who I told what. When I see the same John 1:1 that you folks like to put in front of me many times is when I give the same response.

 

[synergy]

You asked me who came to Shemaiah and Nathan. The Word of God. So what are we talking about?

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

The Word of God has a distinct presence and personal communication capabilities. This proves that the Word of God is a distinct Person. The Trinity is a fact supported by the entire NT, and OT. Case Closed.

 

[synergy]

I don't get how a straw-man applies to what I write and I don't understand the broken record. I am responding to 9 different posts every time I turn on the computer so I never remember who I told what. When I see the same John 1:1 that you folks like to put in front of me many times is when I give the same response.

Since you offer no counterargument to what I presented then it's case closed that the Word of God is a Person. The Trinity is a fact supported by the entire New Testament.

 

[civic]

I don't get how a straw-man applies to what I write and I don't understand the broken record. I am responding to 9 different posts every time I turn on the computer so I never remember who I told what. When I see the same John 1:1 that you folks like to put in front of me many times is when I give the same response.

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do myown will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

 

[civic]

Continued:

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

 

[civic]

And we have more about the Son who is God/ Eternal and Creator

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

 

[civic]

I don't get how a straw-man applies to what I write and I don't understand the broken record. I am responding to 9 different posts every time I turn on the computer so I never remember who I told what. When I see the same John 1:1 that you folks like to put in front of me many times is when I give the same response.

Pros in John 1:1

NT:4314
89.112 NT:4314† ‎pros: a marker of association, often with the implication of interrelationships - 'with, before.' ‎ei)rh/nhn e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have peace with God' Rom 5:1; ‎kai\ o( lo/go$ h@n pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'the Word was with God' John 1:1; ‎parrhsi/an e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have confidence before God' 1 John 3:21.

Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies- Louw and Nida Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament

The Word is also seen has having eternally coexisted with a specific person called God (Greek, ton theon-the God, with the definite article implying that John has a specific person in mind). The term pros implies that not only is there a distinction between the Word and God, but that the Word is also personal. The Word is not just an impersonal attribute existing in the mind of God, but is a distinct person who has coexisted with God from eternity:

"John's use of the preposition pros 'with' is significant. It implies that the Father and the Son had an intimate as well as eternal relationship. Lenski explains:

The preposition pros, as distinct from heos, para,and sun, is of the greatest importance... The idea is that of presence and communion with a strong note of reciprocity. The Logos, then, is not an attribute inferring in God, or a power emanating from him, but a person in the presence of God and turned in loving, inseparable communion toward God and God turned equally toward him. He was another and yet not other than God.

John 17:5

The above coincides perfectly with John 17:5 where we read Jesus saying He was with ( para ) in relationship together, alongside the Father sharing the same Glory that is Gods alone before the Creation.

Strong's Concordance
para: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Original Word: παρά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: para
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ah')
Definition: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Usage: gen: from; dat: beside, in the presence of; acc: alongside of.

Thayers Greek Lexicon
para- with the genitive; and as in Greek prose writings always with the genitive of a person, to denote that a thing proceeds from. the side or the vicinity of one, or from one's sphere of power, or from one's wealth or store, Latina, ab; German von ... her, von neben; Frenchde chez; (English from beside, from);

b. with, i. e. in one's house; in one's town; in one's society: ξενίζεσθαι (which see), Acts 10:6; Acts 21:16; μένειν, of guests or lodgers, John 1:39 (); ; Acts 9:43; Acts 18:3, 20 (R G); f; ἐπιμένειν, Acts 28:14 L T Tr WH; καταλύειν, Luke 19:7(Demosthenes, de corona § 82 (cf. Buttmann, 339 (292))); ἀριστᾶν, Luke 11:37; ἀπολείπειν τί, 2 Timothy 4:13; παρά τῷ Θεῷ, dwelling with God, John 8:38; equivalent to in heaven, John 17:5

 

[101G]

The word “form,” which is the Greek word morphē, is often referred to as Christ’s inner nature as God. This is so strongly asserted that in Phil. 2:6 the NIV has “being in very nature God.” The evidence does not support that morphē refers to an “inner essential nature" but rather an outer form.

ERROR, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" is God a Spirit? let the bible speak, John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
is God outward nature Spirit?

, (in Phil. 2:8, and translated “fashion”) which they assert refers to the outward appearance.

and that outward appearance is flesh/the body,G4976 σχῆμα schema (schee'-ma). but Phil 2:6 said, G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') inner.

A study of other lexicons (many of them Trinitarian) gives a totally different picture than does Vine’s Lexicon. E. W. Bullinger gives morphē a one-word definition, “form.

so, what is God's "Form?", and 101G means the Ordinal FIRST "Form", your answer please.


101G.