Your Views on The Trinity

[synergy]

This is verse 11. Show me where it says Jesus is God in that verse.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

John 1:1 already says "the Word was God". Not every verse has to explain the entire Bible and entire Universe in itself.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Your Views on The Trinity​

There's Father God, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That covers it nicely.

 

[synergy]

There's no road block and there's no teaching on this subject anywhere in the Bible. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God.

What did the Jews of the OT make of the Theophanies of the Old Testament, in particular when the Word of God came to Jewish Prophets and spoke to them. That's the Pre-Incarnate Word of God:

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

 

[Bobby Walker]

You can't have Jesus be 100 percent one thing and 100 percent something else. That's not mathematically possible. What that would make someone is a 200 percent something.

Don't put God in a box he's not limited by mathematics. Jesus died on the cross was buried and rose again on the third day. To us that's medically And physically impossible. But with Jesus who is God, and knew who he was it was no problem. He's alive forevermore.

 

[mikesw]

The problem is that Christians think because the word logos is used in John 1:1 that it somehow means it's a whole biblical teaching saying that Jesus is God.

Your thinking is reductionistic and appears to lack a comprehensive conception of God. Nor have you offered an alternative sense of God, only one trying to lead others into reductionist isolated interpretation of individual passages. You do this despite claiming to have become an expert on such matters. If you have that expertise, present it all together rather than guerilla warfare tactics. You can start explaining how come the earliest indications are that people worshiped Christ just as the have worshiped the Father.

 

[civic]

What I mean by Essence is Nature.

You are making the cardinal error of equating Person and Nature in your statements. Until and when you recognize that error that you're making, you will always stumble on understanding the Trinity:

So again, God is one in nature and three in persons. One God, Three Persons. Elementary, my dear Watson.

Yes he doesn’t understand the Trinity since he claimed we believe in 3 gods who is one god.

 

[civic]

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!
Man, trinitarians got those Oneness' real good!?​

Nice strawman. One God who is 3 Persons is the Trinity.

You have 1 person that is 3 persons.

Next

 

[mikesw]

The word “form,” which is the Greek word morphē, is often referred to as Christ’s inner nature as God. This is so strongly asserted that in Phil. 2:6 the NIV has “being in very nature God.” The evidence does not support that morphē refers to an “inner essential nature" but rather an outer form.

Vine’s Lexicon has under “form”: “properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual… it does not include in itself anything ‘accidental’ or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation.”a Using lexicons like Vine’s, Trinitarians boldly make the case that the “nature” underlying Jesus’ human body was God. Trinitarian scholars like Vine contrast morphē, which they assert refers to an “inner, essential nature,” with schema, (in Phil. 2:8, and translated “fashion”) which they assert refers to the outward appearance. We admit that there are many Trinitarian scholars who have written lexical entries or articles on the Greek word morphē and concluded that Christ must be God. A Trinitarian wanting to prove his point can quote from a number of them. However, we assert that these definitions are biased and erroneous. In addition, we could not find any non-Trinitarian scholars who agreed with the conclusion of the Trinitarian scholars, while many Trinitarian sources agree that morphē refers to the outward appearance and not an inner nature.

A study of other lexicons (many of them Trinitarian) gives a totally different picture than does Vine’s Lexicon. E. W. Bullinger gives morphē a one-word definition, “form. The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphē, “form, outward appearance, shape.”c Gerard Kittel, TDNT, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphē and schema are often interchangeable. Robert Thayer, in his well-respected lexicon, has under morphē, “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance.” Thayer says that the Greeks said that children reflect the appearance (morphē) of their parents, something easily noticed in every culture. Thayer also notes that some scholars try to make morphē refer to that which is intrinsic and essential, in contrast to that which is outward and accidental, but says, “the distinction is rejected by many.”

The meaning of words is a bit cyclical. To some degree you are noting that while at the same time disregarding that point. The words involve a bit of the external meaning -- the usage in other places. They also take on the essence of meaning from their particular usage in a context. Thus far you have not made sense of using the concept of form, as meaning"external appearance." How does Jesus have the external appearance like God? you have you not explained what that might signify. All you are doing so far is guerilla warfare tactics.

 

[7xLightray]

you almost state the trinity better this time but I don't think you quite have the right sense.
Beyond that, you get goofy in your characterization of the Trinity and then of some odd view you have .. You hardly can be blamed for the limited knowledge if you are just approaching this topic casually. But that is where so much error comes in, namely an unqualified interpreter trying to present a repeated misconception.

This is the second time you have said, I got it wrong without telling me what it is. That was still a very general statement, how would you ever correct someone like that? You did not even care to tell me what I supposedly got wrong in your view, or, and then to correct me on what I supposedly got wrong in your view!

Explain in your view, how bowing down and worshiping three persons, each of which are God on their own, are not bowing down to three Gods, and worshipping three Gods? Staying within reality, of course!

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!
Man, trinitarians got those Oneness' real good!?

Three persons judging, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three judges judging!
Three persons ruling, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three kings ruling!
Three persons forgiving sin, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three Gods forgiving sin!​

All (that I know of), or if not then most, trinitarians teach, only God can forgive sins. Who, or what, forgives? Is it a thing/(God) that forgives? Or, is it a person/(God) that forgives? In this context God refers to the person! So, "God" does refer to the person, not substance!

..Anyhow, it matters not since you do not present a comprehensive view of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, nor do you address critical verses..

Who's comprehensive view? I know my view is explained all through this thread. And when it comes to the Trinity, I know there are a few different views.
What critical verses did I not address!? Please, do tell me, cause if I did I want to clear that up! But, I know no one has addressed my critical verses (John 17:3 is only one of them). If you wish to keep yourself honest, and from being hypocritical then answer this (which has been lingering for some time now)..

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.​

1. Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
2. Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, because Jesus said he did not send himself! John 7:28-29; 8:42.
3. Jesus said this is what eternal life looks like for all of eternity, knowing only two, the Father and the Son, just the two persons!
Three witnesses, in one verse, against the Trinity! In the most important prayer, which includes the First most important commandment Mark 12.

So, go ahead and keep yourself from sin by explaining this verse, for I have been waiting a long time for this to be answered by any!

 

[mikesw]

This is the second time you have said I got it wrong, without telling me what it is. That was still a very general statement, how would you ever correct someone like That? You did not even care to tell me what I supposedly got wrong in your view, or, and then to correct me on what I supposedly got wrong in your view!

Explain in your view, how bowing down and worshiping three persons, each of which are God on their own, are not bowing down to three Gods, and worshipping three Gods? Staying within reality, of course!

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!
Man, trinitarians got those Oneness' real good!?

Three persons judging, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three judges judging!
Three persons ruling, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three kings ruling!
Three persons forgiving sin, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three Gods forgiving sin!​

All (that I know of), or if not then most, trinitarians teach, only God can forgive sins. Who, or what forgives? Is it a thing/(God) that forgives? Or is it a person/(God) that forgives?



Who's comprehensive view? I know my view is explained all through this thread. And when it comes to the Trinity, I know there are a few different views.
What critical verses did I not address!? Please, do tell me, cause if I did I want to clear that up! But, I know no one has addressed my critical verses (John 17:3 is only one of them). If you wish to keep yourself honest, and from being hypocritical then answer this (which has been lingering for some time now)..

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.​

1. Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
2. Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, because Jesus said he did not send himself! John 7:28-29; 8:42.
3. Jesus said this is what eternal life looks like for all of eternity, knowing only two, the Father and the Son, just the two persons!
Three witnesses, in one verse, against the Trinity! In the most important prayer, which includes the First most important commandment Mark 12.

So, go ahead and keep yourself from sin by explaining this verse, for I have been waiting a long time for this to be answered by any!

If someone offers a better concept of God than the Trinitarian doctrine, that concept can be debated and taken as the preferred doctrine. Until then, people have to avoid guerilla war tactics in their effort to dismiss the Trinitarian conception.

 

[7xLightray]

What I mean by Essence is Nature.

You are making the cardinal error of equating Person and Nature in your statements. Until and when you recognize that error that you're making, you will always stumble on understanding the Trinity:

So again, God is one in nature and three in persons. One God, Three Persons. Elementary, my dear Watson.

Can you point out exactly where I was equating Person and Nature? Cause I don't understand Person and Nature that way!

Three persons forgiving sin, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three Gods forgiving sin!

All (that I know of), or if not then most, trinitarians teach, only God can forgive sins. Who, or what, forgives? Is it a thing/(God) that forgives? Or, is it a person/(God) that forgives? In context God refers to the person! So, "God" does mean person, not substance, or a thing!

 

[7xLightray]

If someone offers a better concept of God than the Trinitarian doctrine, that concept can be debated and taken as the preferred doctrine. Until then, people have to avoid guerilla war tactics in their effort to dismiss the Trinitarian conception.

That is not true, you are making up you own doctrine here. You don't have to know someone else doctrine to defend yours. Someone that corrects another should always..
2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

I already put my doctrine out there! It's in this thread! But briefly, The Father is the only true God, Jesus is the literal son of God, and the spirit (Holy Spirit) of God is what God is, not who God is. And spirit can come out of God's mouth. The word is God, and God is spirit. Joh 6:63 ..The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. The word is living and eternal, the spirit is living and eternal, for God is living and eternal, and whatever comes out of God is living and eternal.

Point out exactly were I hit and ran!? This is exactly what trinitarians are known for "guerilla war tactics", you just did it, and Projected, and I can show this by Post #449 and #450, you did not answer my verse, which was the three witnesses against the Trinity in John 17:3. And you are not telling me what verses I am not answering! If you really have complete patience and care, you would answer my questions, and you would tell me what I did not answer, if you were sincere.

 

[synergy]

Can you point out exactly where I was equating Person and Nature? Cause I don't understand Person and Nature that way!

Your nature is what you have in common with others. You as a person is what distinguishes you as an individual. The same with God. God's nature, which is one, is what is in common with each God Person, which are 3 Persons in total.

Three persons forgiving sin, whether they all be in one substance, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three Gods forgiving sin!

Nope. God's nature is one, not three. God does not possess 3 natures, He possess one nature.

All (that I know of), or if not then most, trinitarians teach, only God can forgive sins. Who, or what, forgives? Is it a thing/(God) that forgives? Or, is it a person/(God) that forgives? In context God refers to the person! So, "God" does mean person, not substance, or a thing!

It is God the Father who forgives, as does God the Son. The usage of the "the Father" phrase denotes the Person, as does "the Son" phrase. So it's a Person who forgives, not a nature.

 

[Peterlag]

The meaning of words is a bit cyclical. To some degree you are noting that while at the same time disregarding that point. The words involve a bit of the external meaning -- the usage in other places. They also take on the essence of meaning from their particular usage in a context. Thus far you have not made sense of using the concept of form, as meaning"external appearance." How does Jesus have the external appearance like God? you have you not explained what that might signify. All you are doing so far is guerilla warfare tactics.

I was not trying to teach about form. I was only pointing out that you believe it's inner and I believe it's outer. There's just way too much biblical data that makes no sense if we believe in the trinity. Like for example the holy spirit. Where does that fit in? We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus”in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

Your thinking is reductionistic and appears to lack a comprehensive conception of God. Nor have you offered an alternative sense of God, only one trying to lead others into reductionist isolated interpretation of individual passages. You do this despite claiming to have become an expert on such matters. If you have that expertise, present it all together rather than guerilla warfare tactics. You can start explaining how come the earliest indications are that people worshiped Christ just as the have worshiped the Father.

In your mind they are guerilla warfare tactics. In my mind you are on offense and me on defense. I'm trying to switch that by adding a bit of my own thoughts.

 

[Peterlag]

Don't put God in a box he's not limited by mathematics. Jesus died on the cross was buried and rose again on the third day. To us that's medically And physically impossible. But with Jesus who is God, and knew who he was it was no problem. He's alive forevermore.

I cannot use reason and logic when conversing with you because you can just say God can do anything and I knew you were going to say that as I was writing it.

 

[Obadiah]

I love how he doctrine of the Trinity defines God as being one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, coexistent, consubstantial persons; they are three distinct persons sharing one unified singularity of one essence. I like to say, the three-persons aspect defines who God is, while the one essence defines what God is. He is three in one.

 

[Peterlag]

What did the Jews of the OT make of the Theophanies of the Old Testament, in particular when the Word of God came to Jewish Prophets and spoke to them. That's the Pre-Incarnate Word of God:

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

It's outside of my understand how you can read the word "God" and see "Jesus" because when I look at the two verses you just quoted I only see the English word God.

 

[Peterlag]

John 1:1 already says "the Word was God". Not every verse has to explain the entire Bible and entire Universe in itself.

You accused me of not responding to Hebrews and when I take it one verse at a time you go back to John. Well, may I introduce some data on Hebrews...

Hebrews 2:10-11 teaches that we are “brothers” of Jesus and “sons of God” and Jesus is never ashamed to call us such. Hebrews is making a distinction between God and Jesus that is very important and that we lose if we think Jesus is God. We would be “brothers of God” if that were the case, but we clearly are not that. A Trinitarian explanation is that we are brothers of the man part of Jesus, but that is adding to the text. The Bible nowhere says or implies anything like that. In John 14:12 Jesus told his disciples that “whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do.” If Jesus was God, then his statement would be a commission for us to do greater works than God—which is not possible. Jesus would have had to have the attributes of God if he was God, and most theologians agree that some of God’s attributes are unoriginated,self-existent, immortal, all wise, all good, all-powerful and omnipresent. But Jesus had none of those attributes.

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

 

[Peterlag]

If someone is 100% husband and 100% father does that make him "200% something"? Obviously, there's something wrong in your logic.

There's a difference between being a 100 percent Father and a 100 percent man. One is a title and the other is an identity.