I, on the other hand, see the name "Word of God" in those verses. Do tell me who this Word of God is, who came to Nathan and Shemaiah and was speaking to them?
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Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
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Maurice
Member
God the Plurality –
Elohim God emphasizes His unique character in the Universe, His role as the only LORD, the only Creator. This emphasis does not, however, exclude a plurality within that unity.
The Scriptures are full of implications that the One God is more than one Person, beginning with the very first verse of the Bible Genesis 1:1 5.
The Bible opens with seven words, using 28 letters in the Hebrew: “Beresheet bara Elohim et hashamayimve’et ha’arets.”
This is an important, exciting verse. The ancient Hebrew writers recognized that the word beresheet, “in the beginning,” meant the beginning of time and space, not just the beginning of matter and energy.
That’s a contemporary insight from the point of view of modern physics even though it was first recorded n the Hebrew Talmudic tradition by Nachmanides in the 12th century.
The word “created” in this verse is bara, a word that emphasizes creation from nothing. According to the Parity Principle in physics, all particles have a counter-particle; electrons are balanced by positrons, neutrinos are countered by antineutrinos. These particle-antiparticle pairs destroy each other on contact, shooting off gamma rays as they do, and it’s as though the Universe were built out of “nothing” split into combination pairs.
The Charge Parity is approximate and not perfectly symmetrical here from our vantage point, otherwise the matter-antimatter pairs would utterly annihilate each other and we would all soon cease to exist. We were created out of nothing when God—bara—called it all into existence.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3 This brings us to the word Elohim, a noun that takes the plural “Im” ending but uses verbs conjugated in the singular.
The word for “god” in Hebrew is elor eloah, and the plural form is Elohim. The noun and verb have to agree in most languages, often more rigorously than in the English. Elohim is plural, and yet, the word bara is a singular verb. In fact, every place Elohim occurs in reference to the God of Israel, we find the grammatical error of a plural noun used with a singular verb.
When we understand the Hebrew grammar it becomes apparent that we have a situation that throws us off within the first few words of Genesis. If we look carefully, we can gain a subtle insight about the nature of this God who created the worlds from nothing. The Hebrew plural of this one God surfaces in a number of places even through the English translation.
However, it could also imply something about God’s own plurality within one Being. “Let Us” And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.’” Genesis 1:26 Notice that it says here, “God said, ‘Let us…’” Who is God talking to?
Some theologians suggest that He could have been talking to the angels, but the angels didn’t participate in the Creation itself. Job 38:7 tells us the sons of God shouted for joy when God stretched the foundations of the Earth, but the first chapter of Hebrews makes a clear distinction between God’s work as Creator and the position of angels as ministering spirits. What’s more, human beings were not made in the image of angels. Yet, in Genesis 1, God says, “Let us make man in Our image.”
Let’s go over to Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve are about to be expelled from Eden: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil…Genesis 3:22
Again, God speaks of Himself in the plural. This happens often enough that we should not dismiss it as just an idiom, or a figure of speech or a rhetorical convenience. We should notice the consistent pattern that’s been given us.
From an old file on my computer.
Elohim God emphasizes His unique character in the Universe, His role as the only LORD, the only Creator. This emphasis does not, however, exclude a plurality within that unity.
The Scriptures are full of implications that the One God is more than one Person, beginning with the very first verse of the Bible Genesis 1:1 5.
The Bible opens with seven words, using 28 letters in the Hebrew: “Beresheet bara Elohim et hashamayimve’et ha’arets.”
This is an important, exciting verse. The ancient Hebrew writers recognized that the word beresheet, “in the beginning,” meant the beginning of time and space, not just the beginning of matter and energy.
That’s a contemporary insight from the point of view of modern physics even though it was first recorded n the Hebrew Talmudic tradition by Nachmanides in the 12th century.
The word “created” in this verse is bara, a word that emphasizes creation from nothing. According to the Parity Principle in physics, all particles have a counter-particle; electrons are balanced by positrons, neutrinos are countered by antineutrinos. These particle-antiparticle pairs destroy each other on contact, shooting off gamma rays as they do, and it’s as though the Universe were built out of “nothing” split into combination pairs.
The Charge Parity is approximate and not perfectly symmetrical here from our vantage point, otherwise the matter-antimatter pairs would utterly annihilate each other and we would all soon cease to exist. We were created out of nothing when God—bara—called it all into existence.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3 This brings us to the word Elohim, a noun that takes the plural “Im” ending but uses verbs conjugated in the singular.
The word for “god” in Hebrew is elor eloah, and the plural form is Elohim. The noun and verb have to agree in most languages, often more rigorously than in the English. Elohim is plural, and yet, the word bara is a singular verb. In fact, every place Elohim occurs in reference to the God of Israel, we find the grammatical error of a plural noun used with a singular verb.
When we understand the Hebrew grammar it becomes apparent that we have a situation that throws us off within the first few words of Genesis. If we look carefully, we can gain a subtle insight about the nature of this God who created the worlds from nothing. The Hebrew plural of this one God surfaces in a number of places even through the English translation.
However, it could also imply something about God’s own plurality within one Being. “Let Us” And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.’” Genesis 1:26 Notice that it says here, “God said, ‘Let us…’” Who is God talking to?
Some theologians suggest that He could have been talking to the angels, but the angels didn’t participate in the Creation itself. Job 38:7 tells us the sons of God shouted for joy when God stretched the foundations of the Earth, but the first chapter of Hebrews makes a clear distinction between God’s work as Creator and the position of angels as ministering spirits. What’s more, human beings were not made in the image of angels. Yet, in Genesis 1, God says, “Let us make man in Our image.”
Let’s go over to Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve are about to be expelled from Eden: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil…Genesis 3:22
Again, God speaks of Himself in the plural. This happens often enough that we should not dismiss it as just an idiom, or a figure of speech or a rhetorical convenience. We should notice the consistent pattern that’s been given us.
From an old file on my computer.
There's no mutual exclusiveness between God and man for Christ.
I never mentioned the Book of Hebrews in our conversations, let alone accuse you of not responding to it. You are free to comment on it as much as you desire to do so.
civic
Well-known member
As we know the book of Hebrews supports Christ is God in 1:8-12.
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Well, then what probably happened is I responded to someone and you responded to my responds to him. I don't see John 1 saying that Jesus is God. I see the verse talking about the logos. And on that I write...
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
Peterlag
Well-known member
There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:
- Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
- Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
- Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
- Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
- Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
- Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
- “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
- “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
Peterlag
Well-known member
May I have the verse?
That's because only after did the Word of God become flesh as Jesus. See verse 14. John 1:1 takes nothing away from that fact.
Here we go again with that strawman.You sound like a record player whose needle is stuck.
How does a "self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans" align with Rev 19:11-16 that depicts the Word of God as a Person? Since when is a "self-expression... reason, purpose and plans" ever referred to as a "He"? The main identifying factor of a cult is its dirt poor understanding of English Grammar.
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
your theory of the deity is rather sparse and hardly approaching a comprehensive understanding. Also "literal son" is not clear in any world.
I could answer questions but you would just complain about the answers because of your guerilla warfare approach. Have you never checked into those verses before? you can watch a video if you like
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7xLightray
Member
How so? I was comparing reality to the Trinity doctrine, so that is not strawman, but that is, you creating a strawman!
Is this statement true, or not: "Three human persons ruling as king are three human kings ruling"?
Are you saying I have one person that is three persons? How so? I have two persons, so I have no idea what you mean by that?
civic
Well-known member
So are you a binitarian ?
7xLightray
Member
Are you saying God's nature makes three persons one God?
Me and my neighbor have the same nature, but we are not one human, but we are two humans.
Humans have the same nature, but we are not one human, but are known as humans, plural.
Three persons having the same nature, are still three humans!
Three persons having the same nature, are still three God's!
Three persons having the same nature, are still three God's!
7xLightray
Member
I did not ask what is a Person and Nature. My question was "Can you point out exactly where I was equating Person and Nature?" Because, you accused me of "equating Person and Nature." So, I do not want to offend, and my desire is to be sincere and to clear this up.
Just for understanding: How does human nature make three persons one human? I does not!
So, can you explain how does God's nature make three persons one God?
What does God mean to you when saying, the Father is a person, and God means...? What? A nature, a substance, a what?
I'm saying that God's nature is common to 3 Persons who are 1 God by nature.
It's perfectly ok to say you are both human. That's more in line with the Greek term anthropos (singular) because Greek is much more concise than English when it comes understanding nature and person.
Three persons, having the same nature, are still human.
Three Divine Persons, having the same divine nature, are still God.
7xLightray
Member
Will you answer my question? Is this statement true, or not: "Three human persons ruling as king are three human kings ruling"?
No, I am not a binitarian.
For some reason you're not grasping the concept of "after it's own kind" God the Father is the only true God, and Jesus is His literal son born man, equal to! This is one God, and one man. This man existed in the form of God, and was the word that came out of God when God spoke everything into existence, and is the breath of God that was breathed into Adam, give light/life to everyone coming into the world. In that sense Jesus is my God! And in that sense Christ was before all, and in all.
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7xLightray
Member
My theory of the deity of the Father and Son, are understood through creation, as per Rom. 1:20.
What verses, and why?
7xLightray
Member
We are taught from creation (Rom 1:20), that three persons having the same nature are still three humans. So, three Divine Persons, having the same divine nature, are still three Divine Gods. This is a basic understanding of persons, and how we understand the world, and communicate. And you are turning this upside-down, and saying this is not true of God, so, how does the nature of God make three persons one God?
Three persons ruling as a God, are three Gods. It is the same as three persons ruling as a king are three kings. This is how humans understand this. So, you are going out side of that basic understanding, and need to explain how three persons make one God?
civic
Well-known member
Yes to the question .
God is One Being who is Tri- Personal. Christ claimed to be God and affirmed the Holy Spirit is God as did the Apostle’s who also affirmed the deity of the Son and Holy Spirit.
