Your Views on The Trinity

[civic]

I know Jesus is not God and that it was the Catholics who invented such a concept having picked it up in part from the Pagans. But it's you I'm not sure if I want to debate since you are already Catholic.

No it came long before they made it an official doctrine. Many of the early ECF's taught the Son and Holy Spirit were God in their writings.

 

[101G]

How does this verse say Jesus is God in the flesh?

Matthew 19:4
And he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he (God) which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"

Jesus, and Jesus the "CHRIST".... know the differences. First Jesus, (THE CHRIST), God in Flesh. scripture. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Emmanuel: G1694 Ἐμμανουήλ Emmanouel (em-ma-nou-el') n/p.
1. God with us.
2. Emmanuel, a name of Christ.
[of Hebrew origin (H6005)]
KJV: Emmanuel

H6005 עִמָּנוּאֵל `Immanuw'el (im-maw-noo-ale') n/p.
1. (meaning) with us (is) God.
2. (person) Immanuel, a type name of Isaiah's son.
[from H5973 and H410 with a pronominal suffix inserted]
KJV: Immanuel.
Root(s): H5973, H410

Scripture, Immanuw'el. Isaiah 8:5 "The LORD spake also unto me again, saying," Isaiah 8:6 "Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;" Isaiah 8:7 "Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:" Isaiah 8:8 "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel." O Immanuel is the "LORD", notice all caps. now, Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." BINGO, see Matthew 1:23. NOW... knowing that God is in the flesh, how is he "Lord" while in that flesh.... answer. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

so, by being found in NATURAL FLESH as the H259 "ECHAD", or the diversity of himself, he was
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

Oh the beauty of the ECHAD.

conclusion: so in Matthew 19:4 in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v. 1. to make empty. STATE, in the ECHAD, he (God), the equal share of himself in flesh as a man. is the WITNESS OF GOD as Spirit, the Ordinal First/Father of his own self, (Remember he, God, is now speaking by his Son), see Hebrews 1, which is ONE of the two witness in Revelation 11) is now testifying of God in the ECHAD of himself from the beginning. Oh this is Just too easy.

Now listen carefully. "Jesus the Christ MADE NOTHING IN THE BEGINNING ...... but the Lord JESUS did". did you get that? did you understood that? .... (smile). Oh man this is just too easy not to be understood.

now, if you have any questions just ask.

101G.

 

[Quintus5]

ERROR. if what you said is true, then answer, "Who raised up the Lord Jesus body?" was it GOD whom you calls the Father, or was it the Lord Jesus himself? your answer please.

101G.

1. God the Father Raised Jesus:
   • Acts 2:24: "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."
   • Romans 6:4: "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
   • 1 Peter 1:21: "Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God."
2. The Holy Spirit Raised Jesus:
   • Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."
3. Jesus raised Jesus:John 2:19-21 (ESV):"Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews then said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But he was speaking about the temple of his body."

 

[mikesw]

I know Jesus is not God and that it was the Catholics who invented such a concept having picked it up in part from the Pagans. But it's you I'm not sure if I want to debate since you are already Catholic.

if you are not part of the catholic church, you are of some non-biblical religion. Paul was part of the catholic church and so was Barnabas. And Paul demonstrates viewing Christ as part of the Godhead in Rom 3:19-20. To me, this is the only way Rom 3:19-20 makes sense. see https://berean-apologetics.communit...-the-shema-in-light-of-christs-divinity.1593/

 

[mikesw]

1. God the Father Raised Jesus:
   • Acts 2:24: "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."

The wording is interesting in Acts 2:24. For most people it seems quite possible for death to keep a hold on us. With Christ's divinity, it would not make sense for death to keep its hold on him. It is a complicated scenario where Christ was present in Paradise but is body was still buried. Yet, even his body had to be raised (or he had to be raised) sort of for his sake but more for our sake.

 

[mikesw]

No it came long before they made it an official doctrine. Many of the early ECF's taught the Son and Holy Spirit were God in their writings.

Isn't it possible that no one thought or believed in the divinity of Christ (as part of the Godhead) but some single person came in with that trinity theory and forced everyone to accept that as final doctrine? Ok. I'm just pointing out unlikely scenario. I note and affirm what civic said.

 

[civic]

Isn't it possible that no one thought or believed in the divinity of Christ (as part of the Godhead) but some single person came in with that trinity theory and forced everyone to accept that as final doctrine? Ok. I'm just pointing out unlikely scenario. I note and affirm what civic said.

I don’t think they thought in terms of “ Trinity “ but they did in terms of God being plural. The claims of Jesus left no doubt as to His equality with God and that He claimed to be God many times and the Jews knew it and tried stoning Him for blasphemy on many occasions.

 

[mikesw]

I don’t think they thought in terms of “ Trinity “ but they did in terms of God being plural. The claims of Jesus left no doubt as to His equality with God and that He claimed to be God many times and the Jews knew it and tried stoning Him for blasphemy on many occasions.

Sorry. I was conflating councils. The earlier ones were to resolve differences on the nature of Christ's divinity.

 

[civic]

Sorry. I was conflating councils. The earlier ones were to resolve differences on the nature of Christ's divinity.

ditto

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus, and Jesus the "CHRIST".... know the differences. First Jesus, (THE CHRIST), God in Flesh. scripture. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Emmanuel: G1694 Ἐμμανουήλ Emmanouel (em-ma-nou-el') n/p.
1. God with us.
2. Emmanuel, a name of Christ.
[of Hebrew origin (H6005)]
KJV: Emmanuel

H6005 עִמָּנוּאֵל `Immanuw'el (im-maw-noo-ale') n/p.
1. (meaning) with us (is) God.
2. (person) Immanuel, a type name of Isaiah's son.
[from H5973 and H410 with a pronominal suffix inserted]
KJV: Immanuel.
Root(s): H5973, H410

Scripture, Immanuw'el. Isaiah 8:5 "The LORD spake also unto me again, saying," Isaiah 8:6 "Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;" Isaiah 8:7 "Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:" Isaiah 8:8 "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel." O Immanuel is the "LORD", notice all caps. now, Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." BINGO, see Matthew 1:23. NOW... knowing that God is in the flesh, how is he "Lord" while in that flesh.... answer. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

so, by being found in NATURAL FLESH as the H259 "ECHAD", or the diversity of himself, he was
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

Oh the beauty of the ECHAD.

conclusion: so in Matthew 19:4 in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v. 1. to make empty. STATE, in the ECHAD, he (God), the equal share of himself in flesh as a man. is the WITNESS OF GOD as Spirit, the Ordinal First/Father of his own self, (Remember he, God, is now speaking by his Son), see Hebrews 1, which is ONE of the two witness in Revelation 11) is now testifying of God in the ECHAD of himself from the beginning. Oh this is Just too easy.

Now listen carefully. "Jesus the Christ MADE NOTHING IN THE BEGINNING ...... but the Lord JESUS did". did you get that? did you understood that? .... (smile). Oh man this is just too easy not to be understood.

now, if you have any questions just ask.

101G.

Are you telling me a name makes you God? I know a few Spanish baseball players who have the name Jesus and I can tell you right now that neither of them are the Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

In the Koine Greek NT, λογος/λογω is for the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ, ρημα/ρηματι is for the spoken word, and λογον is for the written/recorded/memorized/spoken word.

If one is not careful with Koine Greek then he ends up making a total mess of things.

John 1:14 mentions λογος who is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ. The Word of God is clearly described as a Person in Rev 19:11-16, which you conveniently skipped over.

I don't conveniently skip over. I post what I post. If you want my take on some other Scripture feel free to ask.

 

[synergy]

I don't conveniently skip over. I post what I post. If you want my take on some other Scripture feel free to ask.

Do you believe that λογος in John 1:1 and John 1:14 is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ? The proof of that is Rev 19:11-16 that clearly depicts the λογος as a Divine Person, not just a "wisdom, plan or purpose of God".

 

[Peterlag]

Do you believe that λογος in John 1:1 and John 1:14 is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ? The proof of that is Rev 19:11-16 that clearly depicts the λογος as a Divine Person, not just a "wisdom, plan or purpose of God".

I can't read your mind. What proof are you referring to?

 

[mikesw]

I can't read your mind. What proof are you referring to?

you did not have to read his mind. he stated it. Maybe you are trying to disassociate every mention of logos so that the logos as a person in Rev 19 is no longer the logos in John 1. But we cannot read your mind.

 

[101G]

Are you telling me a name makes you God? I know a few Spanish baseball players who have the name Jesus and I can tell you right now that neither of them are the Christ.

LOL, no..... NATURE, listen and Learn. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
the "Form" of God is his "NATURE", you should have known that. now the coming in flesh as the diversity of himself, verse 7. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

do you understand now?

101G.

 

[synergy]

you did not have to read his mind. he stated it. Maybe you are trying to disassociate every mention of logos so that the logos as a person in Rev 19 is no longer the logos in John 1. But we cannot read your mind.

Exactly! I could not state it any clearer and more concisely what @Peterlag is refusing to acknowledge and is in fact disassociating himself from.

 

[7xLightray]

has anyone around here attempted a cohesive and detailed explanation of a non-trinitarian view of Christ, the Spirit and the Father?
There is a guy trying to present such a view at theos.org but it does not sound any better than the trinitarian concept

Yes! And it straightens out the Bible, as any other writen book reads straightforward. And I have found no contradiction in my doctrine, and no one else has ever shown error in my doctrine.

 

[7xLightray]

civic #326 replying to mikesw #325

has anyone around here attempted a cohesive and detailed explanation of a non-trinitarian view of Christ, the Spirit and the Father?

Well there is not one in my opinion. They either deny the deity of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit or like with oneness/ Modalism make them one person wearing different masks.

Really, coming from the duck and hide from tuff questions guy, and who has not shown error in my doctrine.

1) Did I deny the deity of the literal Son of God. No! Which, being a son that came forth out of God the Father and becoming flesh/body, actually makes Him a literal Son of God, equal to God! The difference is Trinity says, the word/person is from the one God, and the body is from Mary, from the earth, human, and therefore both deity and human. And my doctrine says, the word/breath/spirit is from the one God, and became the flesh/body of Christ, which produced the person that came forth out of Mary, and grew up as a human, from an infant, knowing nothing, as all us humans do, and therefore both deity and human.

2) Did I deny the person of the Holy Spirit? Yes, and No! No, in the sense that Jesus Christ is the spirit/word, by which first became the flesh/body of the Son, that produced the person (the spiritual man, not a earthly man (1 Cor. 2:14 backed up by 1 Cor. 2:11-16 we receive the spirit of Christ, His mind (the spiritual man)); and God the Father is spirit. And Yes, in the sense that the Holy Spirit is God's breath/spirit/word/wisdom/power/life which comes forth out of Him, which God breathed into Adam (Jn. 1:1,4,9), and sent on Pentecost, and sends into every believer, which is only a taste. The greatness and power of God's breath/word "for the weakness of God is stronger than men."

 

[7xLightray]

Well there is not one in my opinion. They either deny the deity of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit or like with oneness/ Modalism make them one person wearing different masks.

Oneness make three persons into one person!
And what does a trinitarian do?
Make three Gods into one God!
Man, trinitarians got those Oneness' real good!?​

 

[synergy]

civic #326 replying to mikesw #325



Really, coming from the duck and hide from tuff questions guy, and who has not shown error in my doctrine.

1) Did I deny the deity of the literal Son of God. No! Which, being a son that came forth out of God the Father and becoming flesh/body, actually makes Him a literal Son of God, equal to God! The difference is Trinity says, the word/person is from the one God, and the body is from Mary, from the earth, human, and therefore both deity and human. And my doctrine says, the word/breath/spirit is from the one God, and became the flesh/body of Christ, which produced the person that came forth out of Mary, and grew up as a human, from an infant, knowing nothing, as all us humans do, and therefore both deity and human.

2) Did I deny the person of the Holy Spirit? Yes, and No! No, in the sense that Jesus Christ is the spirit/word, by which first became the flesh/body of the Son, that produced the person (the spiritual man, not a earthly man (1 Cor. 2:14 backed up by 1 Cor. 2:11-16 we receive the spirit of Christ, His mind (the spiritual man)); and God the Father is spirit. And Yes, in the sense that the Holy Spirit is God's breath/spirit/word/wisdom/power/life which comes forth out of Him, which God breathed into Adam (Jn. 1:1,4,9), and sent on Pentecost, and sends into every believer, which is only a taste. The greatness and power of God's breath/word "for the weakness of God is stronger than men."

Can you briefly enumerate how your doctrine is different than the classical Trinitarian doctrine which is based on the Eucumenical Councils?