The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

Rowan

Active member
Some people think that the doctrine of the Trinity means that Christians believe in three gods. This is the idea of tritheism, which the church has categorically rejected throughout its history. Others see the Trinity as the church’s retreat into contradiction.

I once Read a book by a man who had a PhD in philosophy, and he objected to Christianity on the grounds that the doctrine of the Trinity represented a manifest contradiction—the idea that one can also be three—at the heart of the Christian faith. Apparently this professor of philosophy was not familiar with the law of non-contradiction.

That law states, “A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship.” When we confess our faith in the Trinity, we affirm that God is one in essence and three in person. Thus, God is one in A and three in B. If we said that He is one in essence and three in essence, that would be a contradiction. If we said He is one in person and three in person, that also would be a contradiction. But as mysterious as the Trinity is, perhaps even above and beyond our capacity to understand it in its fullness, the historic formula is not a contradiction.

So before I can make a thread about the Trinity, I think my OP Should be about unity, because the word Trinity means “tri-unity.” Behind the concept of unity is the biblical affirmation of monotheism. The prefix mono means “one or single,” while the root word theism has to do with God. So, monotheism conveys the idea that there is only one God.

Many unbiblical positions can be traced back to a misunderstanding of the nature of God. God has revealed to us in His Word some aspects of His nature. If we are to have a correct understanding of God, then we must accept what God has said about Himself. This is why the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine. Many people deny what the Bible says about God’s nature, and instead place their faith in a god they have produced from their own imagination – a god that is easier to understand. The problem is, an imaginary god cannot save you. Only the real God can. And the real God is Triune. But what does the Trinity actually mean, and does the Bible really teach this doctrine?

Here is what R. C. Sproul Teaches on the trinity:

The “Trinity” is a term we use as a short-hand way of referring to several doctrines pertaining to the nature of God. Succinctly stated, these doctrines are as follows:

1. There is one and only one God. That is, there is exactly one all-powerful, all-knowing being we call “God” or “the Lord” or by the Hebrew name “Yahweh.”

2. There are three co-equal persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3. The three persons of God are each fully God and are eternally distinct from each other. In other words, the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, nor is the Son the Spirit, but each is fully God and this has always been that way and will always be that way.

Any position that denies one or more of these doctrines is, by definition, a non-trinitarian position. This is crucial because when people argue against the Trinity, most of the time they do not understand the Trinity. Their arguments are actually arguments against a misrepresentation of the Trinity: a straw-man fallacy. For example, some people seem to have the impression that the Trinity is teaching that there are three gods. But this is not so. In fact, I have heard people argue against the Trinity on the basis that the Bible teaches that there is only one God (monotheism) in passages such as Deuteronomy 6:4. But of course, the Trinity affirms monotheism; it is the first doctrine of the Trinity!

The word “trinity” stems from the prefix “tri” meaning “three,” and “unity” meaning “one.” Hence, there is a one-ness aspect of God, and a three-ness aspect of God. The one-ness aspect of God is His being or His nature. There is one all-powerful being. (A moment’s reflection reveals that logically there can be only one all-powerful being.) However, this one being is comprised of three persons defined in terms of their relationship to each other. It should be clear that a person is not the same as a being. A rock has “being” because it exists. But it is not a person.

So the sense in which God is one is different from the sense in which God is three. Perhaps a simplistic way to put it is this: God is one “what” and three “who’s.” This is a crucial distinction because people who don’t understand the Trinity often assert that the concept is contradictory. They say “God can’t be both one and three because that is a contradiction.” But a contradiction is to assert both A and not-A at the same time and in the same sense. If I said “God is (only) one being and God is three beings,” then that would be a contradiction. And if I said, “God is (only) one person and also three persons in the same sense,” then that too would be a contradiction. But neither of these assertions is the Trinity. There is no contradiction in asserting that God is one in one sense (being/nature), and three in a different sense (persons). It may be counter-intuitive or contrary to our preferences or expectations. But it violates no principle of logic.

Indeed, many things in nature are one in one sense, and more than one in a different sense. The physical universe is one universe, but it is three in terms of components: space, time, and matter. Furthermore, there is only one space, but space is three in terms of dimensions (height, width, and depth). Time is one dimension but with three aspects: past, present, and future. There is nothing contradictory or absurd in recognizing that something can be one in one sense, and three in a different sense. Note that I am not saying that the above examples are exactly like the Trinity.[1] But they do demonstrate the irrationality of asserting that something cannot possibly be one in one sense and more than one in an entirely different sense. The Lord has provided us with a universe of counterexamples.

The church itself is an example of one “what,” but more than one “who.” The universal church consists of all those who have been saved by Jesus. The one church is comprised of many persons. This example isn’t exactly like the divine Trinity because each person in the church is not “the church,” whereas each person of the Trinity is fully God. But it does illustrate a familiar example of one “what” with more than one “who.”

Some might ask, “But can you show me an analogy that is just like the divine Trinity?” No. There are many three-in-ones, but none are exactly like God. And there is a good reason for this. God is unique (Isaiah 46:9). He alone is one divine being consisting of three eternally distinct persons who are fully God. There is nothing besides God that is just like God. Deal with it. You can either humbly accept what God has said about Himself, or you can make up your own idol that is easier to understand. (But your idol cannot save you from your sins.)

So what then do we mean by the “persons” of the Trinity? We might initially think of a “person” in terms of a physical body, but God is a an omni-present spirit. He doesn’t have a physical body.[2] So this isn’t what we mean. Rather, we use the term “person” to speak of the personal relationships within the one being who is God. There is love and communication between the three persons who are God (John 5:20, Genesis 1:26). Each person has a particular role in the redemption of God’s people (John 6:44, 3:5). Each is a distinct witness to the events of history (John 5:31-37).

You might say, “But I don’t fully understand the nature of God.” But would you expect a finite being to be able to fully understand the infinite mind and uncreated nature of the eternal God? God doesn’t expect or require us to fully comprehend his nature (Deuteronomy 29:29). But He does require us to have faith that He is who and what He claims to be. And He Himself gives us such faith as He wills (Hebrews 12:2).

Some critics assert, “But the term ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible.” That’s true. But it is utterly irrelevant to the truth of the doctrine. After all, there are many modern terms not found in the Bible that nonetheless describe biblical principles. For example, God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything. The word “omniscient” isn’t found in most English Bibles. But the principle that God knows everything is definitely taught (Psalm 147:5). Even the term “Christianity” is not found in the Bible, but does that make “Christianity” unbiblical? Of course not! The term “monotheism” is not found in the Bible. But the Bible does endorse the principle that there is only one God – that’s monotheism.

R. C. Sproul, What Is the Trinity?​

 
The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons:

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” Ephesians 4:4–6
 
Almost all of the Scriptures used by those who reject the trinity to portray Jesus as a “lesser god” spring from a basic failure to understand the incarnation. Jesus, God the Son, laid aside or veiled the full dimension of His divinity when He came to earth. How else could He live as God among men?

“God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich” 2 Corinthians 8:9

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:5–8

We also clearly see that before and after His incarnation, Jesus beams again with undimmed divine glory. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” John 17:5

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor” Hebrews 2:9
 
Addressing the OP.

if God was three persons, one question. "is the Person in John 1:3 "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", is the same one Person in Isaiah 44:24 "WHO MADE ALL THINGS".

PLEASE NOTE: the Person in Isaiah 44:24 WHO MADE ALL THINGS is "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". and the term "ALONE" means having no one else present. so that means this person in Isaiah 44:24 didn't go thru anyone. .... he was "BY .... HIMSELF".

so, is this the same one person? yes or no.

101G.
 
Addressing the OP.

if God was three persons, one question. "is the Person in John 1:3 "WHO MADE ALL THINGS", is the same one Person in Isaiah 44:24 "WHO MADE ALL THINGS".

PLEASE NOTE: the Person in Isaiah 44:24 WHO MADE ALL THINGS is "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". and the term "ALONE" means having no one else present. so that means this person in Isaiah 44:24 didn't go thru anyone. .... he was "BY .... HIMSELF".

so, is this the same one person? yes or no.

101G.
I believe He is the same Person, and yet at the same time, they are distinct Persons. If the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. then it is a contradiction to say that they are not each other. If A=X, and B=X, and C=X, then A=B=C. Or the Father is the Son Who is the Holy Spirit, yet at the same time, they are distinct from each other.
The scripture clearly illustrates this:
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a son who will be born to us, of course Jesus, the Son of God. Yet the same verse says "His name will be called 'Eternal Father'. So the Son is the Father and yet at the same time, the Son is distinct from the Father. I know, humanly speaking (which is the only way we can speak), this is a contradiction. But where does it say, that our "definition" of God, cannot contradict itself? Naturally speaking, that may be true, but we're not speaking about Someone who is natural here. He is supernatural.

Paul calls God (the Father) our Savior in Titus 1:3, 2:10, and 3:4. But, at the same time, he calls Jesus Christ our Savior in Titus 1:4, 2:13, and 3:6.
So if the Father is our Savior and Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is our Savior, then the Father must be the Son, and yet, at the same time, He is distinct from the Son.

2 Corinthians 3:17 - "Now the Lord is the Spirit ..." We know God the Father is called "Lord", so God the Father is the Spirit, according to this verse. We also know that Jesus, the Son, is also called "Lord", so He too is the Spirit, according to this verse. So the Father is the Holy Spirit and the Son of God is also the Holy Spririt. Therefore the Father is the Son, and yet, at the same time, He is distinct from the Son.

I know that this does not line up with the classic understanding of the Trinity, but it does line up with the Scripture.
 
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I believe He is the same Person, and yet at the same time, they are distinct Persons.
(smile), now that's INTRESTING. please tell us how one person is distinct from his OWN-SELF?
If the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
that's three ... "GODS".
If A=X, and B=X, and C=X, then A=B=C.
NO, you have three separates' X's. again, THREE Gods.
Or the Father is the Son Who is the Holy Spirit, yet at the same time, they are distinct from each other.
ERROR again, Father is the Title of the Holy Spirit. and Son is the Title of the Holy Spirit. NOTE: the Holy Spirit which is the YACHID in the STATE of the ECHAD as ONE, as in Father/First, and Son/Last. this is just too easy.
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a son who will be born to us, of course Jesus, the Son of God. Yet the same verse says "His name will be called 'Eternal Father'. So the Son is the Father and yet at the same time, the Son is distinct from the Father.
(SMILE), Lol, ........... LISTEN, a Child. (flesh, bone, and blood), is BORN. now LISTEN CAREFULLY. Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

Now, A. if "he" came into the world, by a body that was prepared for him, is he the body that was prepared? THINK BEFORE YOU ANSWER.
so, B. the Body, the Son of God, (the flesh, the Bone, and Blood... that was BORN), is not the HE, (the Spirit, the Son of Man). for he, (the Son of Man), came into the world by that body that was prepared/made. so, 101G ask, "is God prepared/made? no. 101G know you're not that ignorant.
the Son is distinct from the Father.
HOW? 101G will suggest, only if you can grasp this understanding. the only distinction is in "TIME", PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK".... (Smile). just as the Term Beginning in Genesis 1:1, and John 1:1 clearly states.
I know, humanly speaking (which is the only way we can speak), this is a contradiction. But where does it say, that our "definition" of God, cannot contradict itself?
do God change? is he not the same yesterday, today, and forever more?
Naturally speaking, that may be true, but we're not speaking about Someone who is natural here. He is supernatural.
correct, see all the above.
Paul calls God (the Father) our Savior in Titus 1:3, 2:10, and 3:4. But, at the same time, he calls Jesus Christ our Savior in Titus 1:4, 2:13, and 3:6.
So if the Father is our Savior and Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is our Savior, then the Father must be the Son, and yet, at the same time, He is distinct from the Son.
(smile), you are the contradiction. for the Lord JESUS is God, in the ECHAD of First, and Last. as said titles are not separate and distinct person, but one PERSON in the ECHAD as said which is a DIVERSITY, which I A. Believe, and B. Teach. Understand, the Diversity 101G speak of is nothing but the ECHAD of God that is clearly stated throughout the bible.
2 Corinthians 3:17 - "Now the Lord is the Spirit ..." We know God the Father is called "Lord", so God the Father is the Spirit, according to this verse. We also know that Jesus, the Son, is also called "Lord", so He too is the Spirit, according to this verse. So the Father is the Holy Spirit and the Son of God is also the Holy Spririt. Therefore the Father is the Son, and yet, at the same time, He is distinct from the Son.
please get that separate and distinct nonsense out of your mind.... let's set a new paradigm. instead of separate and distinct, THINK EQUALLLY SHARE "of" the Spirit. this will answer all your question. as in the 2 Corinthians 3:17 above. or 101G John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 same one person question..... and the List go on, and on with this EQUAL SHARE understanding and knowledge.
so, from now on think EQUAL SHARE, which answer you separate and distinct but only ONE PERSON... (smile). quit beating your head against the Stone. wake up and smell the coffee of the Word of God. look, just give this understanding, "EQUAL SHARE" a chance. then determine if this is the correct answer to God's plurality. 101G is convinced, it has answered all my question about God plurality.
I know that this does not line up with the classic understanding of the Trinity, but it does line up with the Scripture.
Good, the bible is the STANDARD. believe the bible. as 101G stated. "the person in John 1:3, (the Son), is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24."

all 101G ask is, just consider, EQUAL SHAREING of oneself VS the Separate and Distinct.

101G.

.
 
When we confess our faith in the Trinity, we affirm that God is one in essence and three in person.
then you still have three gods. and here's why..... if God is one ESSENCE, question, "How much of that ONE ESSENCE was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') ? because, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" (if Equal and was G2758 κενόω kenoo), so how much of that one Essance was G2758 κενόω kenoo?) because, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

so ..... 1/3 of that ONE ESSANCE G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') ? for the second person to come in flesh, or was all of the one Essance G2758 κενόω kenoo.

no reputation: G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

101G
 
I believe He is the same Person, and yet at the same time, they are distinct Persons.
Yes, which is correct. at least you're Earnest. 101G gives you that. so you took the first step of TRUTH, now you need to know How and WHY he is the Echad or the "Diversity" of himself in flesh.

101G.
 
The Trinity is the touchstone of truth, a non-negotiable article of Christian orthodoxy. The word Trinity means “tri-unity, God the Father is divine, God the Son is divine, and God the Holy Spirit is divine.

Paul tells us:

Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Corinthians 8:1–6)

Paul ascribes deity to Christ. He distinguishes between the Father and the Son, and he notes that all things are “from” the Father and “through” Christ, and that we exist “for” the Father and “through” the Son. Clearly, Paul is equating the Father and the Son in terms of Their divinity.
There are many passages in the New Testament that ascribe deity to Christ and to the Holy Spirit
 
The term "By" and "Through" are the same thing. as in Isaiah 44:24 and Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" or

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

NOW, Colossians 1:16 the New International Version 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

through only was used for by

101G.
 
Some people think that the doctrine of the Trinity means that Christians believe in three gods. This is the idea of tritheism, which the church has categorically rejected throughout its history. Others see the Trinity as the church’s retreat into contradiction.

I once Read a book by a man who had a PhD in philosophy, and he objected to Christianity on the grounds that the doctrine of the Trinity represented a manifest contradiction—the idea that one can also be three—at the heart of the Christian faith. Apparently this professor of philosophy was not familiar with the law of non-contradiction.

That law states, “A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship.” When we confess our faith in the Trinity, we affirm that God is one in essence and three in person. Thus, God is one in A and three in B. If we said that He is one in essence and three in essence, that would be a contradiction. If we said He is one in person and three in person, that also would be a contradiction. But as mysterious as the Trinity is, perhaps even above and beyond our capacity to understand it in its fullness, the historic formula is not a contradiction.

So before I can make a thread about the Trinity, I think my OP Should be about unity, because the word Trinity means “tri-unity.” Behind the concept of unity is the biblical affirmation of monotheism. The prefix mono means “one or single,” while the root word theism has to do with God. So, monotheism conveys the idea that there is only one God.

Many unbiblical positions can be traced back to a misunderstanding of the nature of God. God has revealed to us in His Word some aspects of His nature. If we are to have a correct understanding of God, then we must accept what God has said about Himself. This is why the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine. Many people deny what the Bible says about God’s nature, and instead place their faith in a god they have produced from their own imagination – a god that is easier to understand. The problem is, an imaginary god cannot save you. Only the real God can. And the real God is Triune. But what does the Trinity actually mean, and does the Bible really teach this doctrine?

Here is what R. C. Sproul Teaches on the trinity:

The “Trinity” is a term we use as a short-hand way of referring to several doctrines pertaining to the nature of God. Succinctly stated, these doctrines are as follows:

1. There is one and only one God. That is, there is exactly one all-powerful, all-knowing being we call “God” or “the Lord” or by the Hebrew name “Yahweh.”

2. There are three co-equal persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3. The three persons of God are each fully God and are eternally distinct from each other. In other words, the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, nor is the Son the Spirit, but each is fully God and this has always been that way and will always be that way.

Any position that denies one or more of these doctrines is, by definition, a non-trinitarian position. This is crucial because when people argue against the Trinity, most of the time they do not understand the Trinity. Their arguments are actually arguments against a misrepresentation of the Trinity: a straw-man fallacy. For example, some people seem to have the impression that the Trinity is teaching that there are three gods. But this is not so. In fact, I have heard people argue against the Trinity on the basis that the Bible teaches that there is only one God (monotheism) in passages such as Deuteronomy 6:4. But of course, the Trinity affirms monotheism; it is the first doctrine of the Trinity!

The word “trinity” stems from the prefix “tri” meaning “three,” and “unity” meaning “one.” Hence, there is a one-ness aspect of God, and a three-ness aspect of God. The one-ness aspect of God is His being or His nature. There is one all-powerful being. (A moment’s reflection reveals that logically there can be only one all-powerful being.) However, this one being is comprised of three persons defined in terms of their relationship to each other. It should be clear that a person is not the same as a being. A rock has “being” because it exists. But it is not a person.

So the sense in which God is one is different from the sense in which God is three. Perhaps a simplistic way to put it is this: God is one “what” and three “who’s.” This is a crucial distinction because people who don’t understand the Trinity often assert that the concept is contradictory. They say “God can’t be both one and three because that is a contradiction.” But a contradiction is to assert both A and not-A at the same time and in the same sense. If I said “God is (only) one being and God is three beings,” then that would be a contradiction. And if I said, “God is (only) one person and also three persons in the same sense,” then that too would be a contradiction. But neither of these assertions is the Trinity. There is no contradiction in asserting that God is one in one sense (being/nature), and three in a different sense (persons). It may be counter-intuitive or contrary to our preferences or expectations. But it violates no principle of logic.

Indeed, many things in nature are one in one sense, and more than one in a different sense. The physical universe is one universe, but it is three in terms of components: space, time, and matter. Furthermore, there is only one space, but space is three in terms of dimensions (height, width, and depth). Time is one dimension but with three aspects: past, present, and future. There is nothing contradictory or absurd in recognizing that something can be one in one sense, and three in a different sense. Note that I am not saying that the above examples are exactly like the Trinity.[1] But they do demonstrate the irrationality of asserting that something cannot possibly be one in one sense and more than one in an entirely different sense. The Lord has provided us with a universe of counterexamples.

The church itself is an example of one “what,” but more than one “who.” The universal church consists of all those who have been saved by Jesus. The one church is comprised of many persons. This example isn’t exactly like the divine Trinity because each person in the church is not “the church,” whereas each person of the Trinity is fully God. But it does illustrate a familiar example of one “what” with more than one “who.”

Some might ask, “But can you show me an analogy that is just like the divine Trinity?” No. There are many three-in-ones, but none are exactly like God. And there is a good reason for this. God is unique (Isaiah 46:9). He alone is one divine being consisting of three eternally distinct persons who are fully God. There is nothing besides God that is just like God. Deal with it. You can either humbly accept what God has said about Himself, or you can make up your own idol that is easier to understand. (But your idol cannot save you from your sins.)

So what then do we mean by the “persons” of the Trinity? We might initially think of a “person” in terms of a physical body, but God is a an omni-present spirit. He doesn’t have a physical body.[2] So this isn’t what we mean. Rather, we use the term “person” to speak of the personal relationships within the one being who is God. There is love and communication between the three persons who are God (John 5:20, Genesis 1:26). Each person has a particular role in the redemption of God’s people (John 6:44, 3:5). Each is a distinct witness to the events of history (John 5:31-37).

You might say, “But I don’t fully understand the nature of God.” But would you expect a finite being to be able to fully understand the infinite mind and uncreated nature of the eternal God? God doesn’t expect or require us to fully comprehend his nature (Deuteronomy 29:29). But He does require us to have faith that He is who and what He claims to be. And He Himself gives us such faith as He wills (Hebrews 12:2).

Some critics assert, “But the term ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible.” That’s true. But it is utterly irrelevant to the truth of the doctrine. After all, there are many modern terms not found in the Bible that nonetheless describe biblical principles. For example, God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything. The word “omniscient” isn’t found in most English Bibles. But the principle that God knows everything is definitely taught (Psalm 147:5). Even the term “Christianity” is not found in the Bible, but does that make “Christianity” unbiblical? Of course not! The term “monotheism” is not found in the Bible. But the Bible does endorse the principle that there is only one God – that’s monotheism.

R. C. Sproul, What Is the Trinity?​

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.
 
There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.
It is an anachronism to think that Roman Catholics existed in the first century. You should avoid anachronism in your argument against the triune nature of God. People were worshiping Jesus from the earliest record of the church. Even the time before Christ has Jews discussing the two powers of heaven -- essentially finding God sending God to act among the people. (I am lax on the language here.)
I do acknowledge that the Trinitarian doctrine represents the best fashion we can understand God so far -- mainly by excluding the explanations of the the divinity of Christ and the Spirit that do not fit with scripture. If someone comes out with a better understanding, it would make sense to take on that conception of the Godhead. Just put out your best overall argument.
 
It is an anachronism to think that Roman Catholics existed in the first century. You should avoid anachronism in your argument against the triune nature of God. People were worshiping Jesus from the earliest record of the church. Even the time before Christ has Jews discussing the two powers of heaven -- essentially finding God sending God to act among the people. (I am lax on the language here.)
I do acknowledge that the Trinitarian doctrine represents the best fashion we can understand God so far -- mainly by excluding the explanations of the the divinity of Christ and the Spirit that do not fit with scripture. If someone comes out with a better understanding, it would make sense to take on that conception of the Godhead. Just put out your best overall argument.
I just tell the truth... A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
I just tell the truth... A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
History is fine. The creeds were refined as they various confessions were found insufficient to exclude people that held to an unacceptable belief. It is like lawyers learning how to add more and more clauses to contracts when they find out people are going around the protections intended.
Additionally (as edited in later), it seems people are unsettled by the slow development of the creeds. This just reflects that people have limitations and sometimes take awhile to work out issues and reduce confusion. God allows humans to work out their understanding of him. This is like God letting people in their teens and twenties to take care of newborns and young children.
 
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History is fine. The creeds were refined as they various confessions were found insufficient to exclude people that held to an unacceptable belief. It is like lawyers learning how to add more and more clauses to contracts when they find out people are going around the protections intended.
I’m one of those who rely solely on scripture as my primary source which is the inspired truth. The creeds are not inspired and are secondary sources. That’s my take on it anyways. I think many of the creeds have good intentions but they were not inspired.
 
I’m one of those who rely solely on scripture as my primary source which is the inspired truth. The creeds are not inspired and are secondary sources. That’s my take on it anyways. I think many of the creeds have good intentions but they were not inspired.
Sure. the creeds are to help know that others are not sneaking in just to ridicule what people of that creed follow. There can be exceptions allowed where someone is investigating an aspect of the creed -- if talking about professors of a seminary for example. Of course, the more extensive a creed is the greater chance of adding less certain beliefs.
 
History is fine. The creeds were refined as they various confessions were found insufficient to exclude people that held to an unacceptable belief. It is like lawyers learning how to add more and more clauses to contracts when they find out people are going around the protections intended.
Additionally (as edited in later), it seems people are unsettled by the slow development of the creeds. This just reflects that people have limitations and sometimes take awhile to work out issues and reduce confusion. God allows humans to work out their understanding of him. This is like God letting people in their teens and twenties to take care of newborns and young children.
What are creeds?
 
There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible.
here is that teaching. Genesis 49:8 "Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee." Genesis 49:9 "Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?" Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Genesis 49:11 "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:" Genesis 49:12 "His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk."
Shiloh: H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.
Root(s): H7951

and is it not the RISEN MESSIAH that brings salvation? now let's see this teaching clearly in the OT. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." is not his "OWN ARM" him? yes, now read Isaiah chapter 53 and see who is HIS, HIS, HIS, Own ARM........ :cool:

101G.
 
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