The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[dwight92070]

That's correct.
If the Bible presents the Holy Spirit as a separate being or entity from God, the Holy Spirit is not God.
We could say it is a Manifestation of God. Or a power, acting through the human. A power to understand, to speak, to act.
That's why the allusions to the Holy Spirit almost always imply an action executed by a prophet, a believer, Jesus Himself, etc.

There are many other similar terms.

The Spirit of God. The Love of God. The Grace of God. The Word of God, etc.

I could say "The grace of God freed me from the prison of sin and made me a new person", without implying that The Grace of God is a personal being separate from God who is at the same time God.

This must be the corrupt influence of Bahai. I cannot believe you came to this conclusion. What will you believe next? That if the Father is mentioned separately from God, that the Father, also, is not God?

I had hoped that you would see the folly of thinking that, since Jesus is mentioned separately from God, that he cannot be God.

Without any doubt, the Holy Spirit is God, even though He is mentioned separately from God many times in scripture.

Without any doubt, the Father is God and Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is not an "it". The Holy Spirit is a "He" or "Him".

This is why I said that you are obsessed with your own made - up idea that if Jesus is mentioned separately from God, that Jesus cannot be God.
In fact you have put so much faith in that deception, that now even the Holy Spirit cannot be God.

Instead of being made free, you are going further into darkness.

 

[dwight92070]

Matthew 6:24 Jesus said "No one can serve two masters; ... You cannot serve God and wealth."

Jesus is saying that you can't make wealth your "God" and then claim at the same time to worship the true God. In other words, you can only have ONE God.

Elijah told the people of Israel "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him."

We could also say "If the Father is God, follow Him, but if Jesus is God, follow Him."

Yet Jesus claims to be our Master and Lord.

The apostle Peter said "There will also be false teachers among you ... even denying the Master who bought them ..." 2 Peter 2:1
Obviously, he's speaking of Jesus, who bought them with His own blood.

Jude, the half-brother of Jesus said "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed ... who turn the grace of God into licentiousness and deny our ONLY MASTER and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
Not only does Jude claim that Jesus is our Master, but he also says that Jesus is our ONLY MASTER.

So how can Jesus be our ONLY Master, if God the Father is our ONLY Master?

There's only one way. We must recognize that Jesus IS God.

"Exhibit R" Both God the Father and Jesus are our ONLY Master. But Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. Therefore Jesus IS God.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho, I thought we were going through the letters. You didn't change your mind, did you?
I believe we were going through the books of Timothy.

1 Timothy 1:15 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all."

Do you understand that Paul is speaking GLOBALLY here?

You and I did not "come into this world" in the same sense that Jesus did - yes, we were born into the world. But the world, to us, was not the planet Earth. The world to us was an awareness of our mother and father and our siblings, our home, and all of our local environment.

Of course, Jesus experienced all of that too but, unlike us, he was aware that His true Father was God, even at the age of twelve. Also, unlike us, He was aware that His mission was the entire planet, not just Israel. How do we know that? Because He came to "save sinners", which would include all of mankind, past, present, and future. He didn't just come for the sake of Israel alone, although He was specifically sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Matthew 15:24

Not only that, but if He came to save sinners, then He Himself COULD NOT BE A SINNER. A sinner cannot save another sinner. So we see that Jesus was MORE THAN just a man, and His mission was TO SAVE ALL OF MANKIND. Otherwise He too would have been a sinner.

Given all of that, we can see that when Jesus came into the world, we can rightfully ask "Where was He before He came into the world?"
Jesus Himself gives us the answer "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." John 16:28

"Exhibit S" "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." 1 Timothy 1:15 No one who is a sinful man can save billions of people, past, present, and future - from their sins. But Jesus DID JUST THAT! Therefore, Jesus IS God.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho, you wanted someone to accept your challenge of going through the letters in the New Testament. Well I accepted that challenge, but once again, you haven't responded in over 4 days. So are you doing this or not? You said that you might have 48 or 72 hour intervals. Well, it's been over 103 hours.

 

[dwight92070]

Okay, I guess Pancho wasn't serious about going through all the letters in the New Testament. I can see where that might be discouraging for him, since every one of them clearly displays that Jesus IS God.

 

[Runningman]

...every one of them clearly displays that Jesus IS God.

Example please.

 

[dwight92070]

Example please.

Where have you been? I've given 19 examples in this thread, starting on page 14 #278, with "Exhibit A". My latest example was "Exhibit S", #503 on this page, page 26. I call them "exhibits" like evidence in a courtroom. By quickly scanning through my posts during that time period, you can easily locate them. You can view all 19 of them and I'm sure there will be more forthcoming, because the New Testament is chock full of evidence of Jesus being God.
The question is whether one chooses to believe the scripture or not.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Where have you been? I've given 19 examples in this thread, starting on page 14 #278, with "Exhibit A". My latest example was "Exhibit S", #503 on this page, page 26. I call them "exhibits" like evidence in a courtroom. By quickly scanning through my posts during that time period, you can easily locate them. You can view all 19 of them and I'm sure there will be more forthcoming, because the New Testament is chock full of evidence of Jesus being God.
The question is whether one chooses to believe the scripture or not.

I think I have refuted each one of the exhibits you have kindly brought to the Forum.
I hold my ground that each and every of your exhibits does not show (let alone "prove") that Jesus is God.
In contrast, the number of verses that present God and Jesus as separate being is overwhelming... not just arithmetically, and qualitatively, as I have included the words from Jesus Himself.

So, I propose to you to let our readers think.
Certainly, when I have the time, I can go through the rest of the letters.
The ones discussed, like Romans, OVERWHELMINGLY show that Paul thought in God and Jesus as separate beings.
Pay attention: I am not saying the Father and Jesus, a distinction that we both agree on. I am saying God and Jesus.

 

[dwight92070]

You have been gone for 11 days now. And your still obsessed with Jesus and God being mentioned separately, which proves nothing. I showed you that the Holy Spirit and God are also mentioned separately in approximately the same number of verses - over 200. I said that going by your reasoning, then the Holy Spirit also cannot be God.
I thought that that would clearly show you that separate mentions of Jesus and God, means nothing - because we know clearly that the Holy Spirit is indeed God. But you surprised me and actually said that because of what I researched about the Holy Spirit, you actually now believe that the Holy Spirit, too, is not God.
Don't blame me. I never said or even implied that the Holy Spirit is not God.
Such separation of names proves nothing.

 

[dwight92070]

Actually, you haven't even addressed most of my exhibits. And the ones that you have - you have not provided any scriptural proof negating them, only your opinion about them.

[Pancho} Pay attention: I am not saying the Father and Jesus, a distinction that we both agree on. I am saying God and Jesus.

Well, if we both agree that the Father is God and God is the Father, then any distinction between the Father and Jesus is also fair game.

 

[Runningman]

The question is whether one chooses to believe the scripture or not.

Let's see if you will.

Pancho, I thought we were going through the letters. You didn't change your mind, did you?
I believe we were going through the books of Timothy.

1 Timothy 1:15 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all."

Do you understand that Paul is speaking GLOBALLY here?

You and I did not "come into this world" in the same sense that Jesus did - yes, we were born into the world. But the world, to us, was not the planet Earth. The world to us was an awareness of our mother and father and our siblings, our home, and all of our local environment.

Your conclusion suggests that Jesus is not an omnipresent god like the Father is. You said he came into the world so he was completely absent in the world then? Scripture says God was already in the world, but you're saying he "came into the world."

John 1
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

Coming into the world sounds like a way of just saying Jesus was born.

Of course, Jesus experienced all of that too but, unlike us, he was aware that His true Father was God, even at the age of twelve. Also, unlike us, He was aware that His mission was the entire planet, not just Israel. How do we know that? Because He came to "save sinners", which would include all of mankind, past, present, and future. He didn't just come for the sake of Israel alone, although He was specifically sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Matthew 15:24

Not only that, but if He came to save sinners, then He Himself COULD NOT BE A SINNER. A sinner cannot save another sinner. So we see that Jesus was MORE THAN just a man, and His mission was TO SAVE ALL OF MANKIND. Otherwise He too would have been a sinner.

Given all of that, we can see that when Jesus came into the world, we can rightfully ask "Where was He before He came into the world?"
Jesus Himself gives us the answer "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." John 16:28

Not cut and dry. People come from God and Scripture who are not God.

John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John.

"Exhibit S" "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." 1 Timothy 1:15 No one who is a sinful man can save billions of people, past, present, and future - from their sins. But Jesus DID JUST THAT! Therefore, Jesus IS God.

Jesus isn't God according to Scripture. John 3:16,17 says God sent His Son to save "through" him. Therefore the primary savior is God, not Jesus. They work together without being the same savior or the same person.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You have been gone for 11 days now. And your still obsessed with Jesus and God being mentioned separately, which proves nothing.

Why then do you think they are mentioned separately over and over?
I would like to know your opinion, my brother.

I showed you that the Holy Spirit and God are also mentioned separately in approximately the same number of verses - over 200. I said that going by your reasoning, then the Holy Spirit also cannot be God.

I agree. my brother. The Holy Spirit is not God. That's why it is mentioned separately from God.

 

[101G]

The Holy Spirit is not God. That's why it is mentioned separately from God.

my Brother, is not the Holy Spirit the Comforter, who is the Advocate? let's see, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

Advocate :G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
and is not the Lord Jesus the Christ the Comforter who came in flesh and blood? see Luke 2:25. and here in John 14:16 ANOTHER.... G243 ALLOS, a numerical difference, First/Last, but the same "SORT" Spirit, Root/Offspring comforter will come.

101G.

 

[101G]

To all,
The Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE PERSON who is called GOD, the Spirit. and his Titles are Father/LORD/First/Beginning/Alpha/Root. and he, God in flesh is, Son/Lord/End/Omega/Offspring. the H259 ECHAD in the OT is the same description G243 ALLOS in the NT.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

Biblical citation needed for the above.

 

[dwight92070]

Let's see if you will.

Your conclusion suggests that Jesus is not an omnipresent god like the Father is. You said he came into the world so he was completely absent in the world then? Scripture says God was already in the world, but you're saying he "came into the world."

John 1
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

Coming into the world sounds like a way of just saying Jesus was born.



Not cut and dry. People come from God and Scripture who are not God.

John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John.

Jesus isn't God according to Scripture. John 3:16,17 says God sent His Son to save "through" him. Therefore the primary savior is God, not Jesus. They work together without being the same savior or the same person.

You're very confused, as I said, because you don't want to believe the scriptures. Typical Watchtower Society propaganda, thinking they alone have the truth.

 

[dwight92070]

Why then do you think they are mentioned separately over and over?
I would like to know your opinion, my brother.

I agree. my brother. The Holy Spirit is not God. That's why it is mentioned separately from God.

I am not your brother. How could I be when you claim to be of the BaHai religion? I am a brother to those who believe and obey Jesus, not BaHai. You don't even believe that the Holy Spirit is God. You are not my brother. Christianity doesn't mix with BaHai or any other religion.

 

[Runningman]

You're very confused, as I said, because you don't want to believe the scriptures. Typical Watchtower Society propaganda, thinking they alone have the truth.

Do you think you have the truth?

 

[dwight92070]

No offense meant, just speaking the truth.

 

[dwight92070]

Do you think you have the truth?

Yes, I do, but the church we attend acknowledges that we are not the only church that has the truth. There are many churches who have the truth. We don't all agree on every issue, and that's okay, but there are some issues that are essential to agree on - and I think the Deity of Jesus is one of them. Does that mean that I think you are lost? No, not necessarily, but again this is a major doctrine.
By the way, if I didn't think I had the truth, I would believe something else, right?
Do you think I am lost?