The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth
- Thread starter Rowan
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Hence, it is natural for the incarnate Son to develop along with children born of two parents. So there is no issue with Christ developing as a child but being God too.
Peterlag
Active member
I can answer all your questions and none of the Scripture you put in front of me fits with the truth because those Scriptures were poorly translated or taken out of context or not understood in the culture they were written in. The one in john 1:3 is the same God that is in Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is not in either verses. The logos in John is God's wisdom that created. The Lord of the Old testament is God. Jesus was not born yet. So in both verses there's God and God's wisdom. Jesus is not in any of those verses. Your question was never hard for me to answer. I did not respond because you are not going to believe me because in your mind Jesus is God so he must have been in both of those verses.
101G
Well-known member
well you got part of it right, "Christ developed" but 101G see that you're uninformed of God as the Ordinal of himself. so stay just where you are at.
good day.
101G
101G
Well-known member
first, thank you for acknowledging that the person in John 1:3 is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24, which is TRUE. but you say, "that one person is not the Lord Jesus". well if the person in both scriptures is not the Lord Jesus, then who is the "Word" in John 1:1 through John 1:3? your answer please
let's see if what you say is correct. Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." the Lord God here must be the Father, correct? because you said, the Lord Jesus is not yet born correct. OK, good. now in Revelation 1:1 someone sent HIS angel. LISTEN. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
.he, here is a single person that sent his angel to John correct. well the sent angel tells us who sent him, listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." the Lord God sent his angel, correct. the Lord God of the holy prophets. meaning the one whom you calls the God of the OT as well as the GOD of the NT the ONLY GOD, correct. now this, ......... SAME CHAPTER, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
who sent his angel? answer, the Lord God who now we KNOW IS GOD, and the Lord Jesus, (God), said, he sent his angel. now Pete, either the Lord Jesus is the Lord God of the holy prophets as the scripture's states, whom you say is God, or you have two Gods, and by definition that's polytheism. take your pick.
101G.
Your idea is rather enigmatic. I'm not sure which verse says God's Son (Jesus, as part of the Godhead) is an ordinal.
So is 101G saying that Son of God, as part of the Trinity, could not become incarnate and dwell among people while also maturing from childhood into adulthood? Is this that such a task is too difficult for God to plan and undertake?
Peterlag finds it beyond God's capability for sending his Son to be incarnate and be among humanity. It is as if Christ Jesus could no longer be part of the Godhead if he were incarnate -- that Jesus' lack of throwing thunderbolts at the Pharisees means that Jesus is no longer deity.
Peterlag finds it beyond God's capability for sending his Son to be incarnate and be among humanity. It is as if Christ Jesus could no longer be part of the Godhead if he were incarnate -- that Jesus' lack of throwing thunderbolts at the Pharisees means that Jesus is no longer deity.
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Peterlag
Active member
It's not that I don't have answers or can't answer or will not answer you which are some of the ways you put it. It's that I don't care to go through the trouble to try to unravel the mess you tie yourself into. God made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ when He raised him out from among the dead. What you do is find places where the word Lord is used and then say they are the same creature. They are not. Both Jesus and God are called the Lord.
There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God.
101G
Well-known member
First thanks for your reply, and question. it's not hard to understand nor mysterious. Listen to the Scriptures. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
Notice, "OUR" ...... God is ONE ..... LORD. where is the "Lord? in that verse". this is the secret to the ECHAD of God. for the Hebrew term,
ONE: H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258
101G's source for this definition is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. one can go online and view this definition.
but notice definition #2. (as an ordinal) first BINGO there's our answer. not hidden but in plain sight. now the next revelation, "HOW, What, WHEN, and where is this ordinal designation? answer, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
see that term "Beginning?", it's the Hebrew term,
H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
note definition #1the first, in place, time, order or rank. FIRST, Yes, First as in PLACE/OT, FIRST in TIME/OT, FIRST in the Beginning. FIRST in ORDER, (TIME, and PLACE, the OT). and FIRST in RANK, (LORD, because he, Jesus is CREATOR, and MAKER of ALL THINGS, OT, just as Isaiah 44:24 clearly states). and he, (JESUS/GOD), is LAST in (TIME and PLACE, as Lord, Last day/NT), he is LAST in ORDER, NT. LAST (in TIME PLACE, and ORDER, which is this ORDINAL designation you asked about), to REDEEM, and SAVE all that he CREATED and MADE in the Beginning as the LORD/Spirit, RANK Father now in Glorified flesh/Spirit as a man, title Son, the LAST. supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." .... WITH? yes, the same person in the ECHAD of FIRST and LAST, as clearly revealed in the book of Revelation. this is why it was asked, "is the person in John 1:3 the same person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE ALL THINGS", and he is, even Peterlag acknowledge this truth, (thank God for that). just as the First is "WITH" the Last, so also is the WORD, (the Last) is "WITH" God just as John 1:1 clearly states. and as Philippians 2:6 states, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" the ECHAD shows us this EQUALITY of God in a PLURILITY of himself as the "ANOTHER", which in the NEW TESTAMENT at his coming in flesh is clearly identified as the GREEK TERM G243 Allos. which according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words clearly states, [ 1,,G243 G2087 ,allos heteros ] have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort. Please look up these words and KNOW the difference.
and to clearly understand this mystery without doubt Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." in addition to being the FIRST, he is "ALSO" the Last... mystery solved.
so there is no mystery, just READ with the Holy Spirit who is inside of you, and let him guide you in your studies of his Holy Word.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
EXCUSE?
SECOND MISTAKE. #1. God did not ... "MADE JESUS", ..... NOTHING, he Jesus "MADE" HIMSELF LOWER than the angels. Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:" is this the ONE whom you calls the Father? and the scripture you are banking on? well let's see.
Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Now, the revealing scripture, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
if he MADE himself, then he is God almighty the Ordinal Last.
now your Second error, which also answer the first.
#2. "Who raised up Jesus body?" was it God whom many calls the Father, or "did the Lord Jesus raise up his own body?" let the bible answer this.
Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." remember the body is what is raised, because it's the BODY that is DEAD. see James, 2:26. Now knowing this, let the bible answer again. for Peter, (full of the Holy Spirit), on the day of Pentecost, said, "God raised up Jesus right.
now this, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?" John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body." John 2:22 "When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."
now we will see if one is a Christian or not who believe the word of God, especially the words that came for the Lord Jesus himself, his lips. the Lord Jesus said, "HE, HE, HE, will raise up his dead body". now the Lord Jesus cannot LIE, nor the Holy Ghost that was in Peter preaching on the day of Pentecost. so, the Lord Jesus who is God who raise up that body, else the bible lied, (meaning God lied, God forbid), as to who raised up that body. the only conclusion is that Jesus is God.
101G
P.S. Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
now Pete, is this actually two people sitting next to each other, or do RIGHT HAND means, "IN POWER". yes or no.
101G
Well-known member
@Peterlag,
a very simple question, "if God, who you say is the ONLY God, and your God made Jesus a LITTLE lower than the angels. well there is only three entity, a. God, b. the angels, and c. US humans. so if the Lord Jesus was made LOWER than the angels, (b) there is only one position above them... (a) GOD. so by your admission Jesus must be God, and if you still deny this, then by definition you have two Gods. which is polytheism.
101G.
a very simple question, "if God, who you say is the ONLY God, and your God made Jesus a LITTLE lower than the angels. well there is only three entity, a. God, b. the angels, and c. US humans. so if the Lord Jesus was made LOWER than the angels, (b) there is only one position above them... (a) GOD. so by your admission Jesus must be God, and if you still deny this, then by definition you have two Gods. which is polytheism.
101G.
Peterlag
Active member
Jesus was born a little lower than the angels, but became above the angels after his death, resurrection, and exaltation. Now what do you want to talk about?
Peterlag
Active member
There's a whole bunch of verses here. Which one do you want me to comment on?
You don't say anything clearly here. You quote some material out of a lexicon but that is about all. God has always been highest in rank -- being distinct from creation. He also is one numerically. He also is in unity. Christ Jesus is also part of that oneness. Paul even uses that in Gal 3:19-20 to show that nothing like the law intervenes in our direct benefit of the promise since nothing could mediate between God the Father and God the Son. So, you have not made an argument against what I have shared.
101G
Well-known member
Oh yes 101G has. example "Who laid the Foundation of the Earth? God, so was it your one whom you calls the Father, or the Son. and ONLY ONE LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. so which one. and that will answer your question. your answer please.
now if you cannot answer, your statements above are false.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
just comment on this one, " is there a entity higher than God?" no, now, if the Lord Jesus was made lower than the angels, and the angels are lower than God, is the Lord Jesus God yes or no?
101G.
You may have heard of the Shema found in Deut 6:4. God is one. I know it is confusing to our own way of thinking. But we know God who, in the wording of the trinity, is 3 persons but one God. You can speak of individuals of the Godhead or singly of God. Peterlag cannot wrap his mind around that concept.
It should be expected that the revelation of God's essence would be surprising and unexpected. This knowledge is analogical such that have to work with the details scriptures give us.
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Pancho Frijoles
Active member
It is indeed confusing. And we don’t need getting confused.
My respectful call is : Go simple. We worship One Single Person, the True and Only God, the Father.
Sometimes ignorance can be bliss. Other times it can be quite harmful. Many of us are trying to free people from that harm of ignorance about the nature of God. You can keep your ignorance in your conception of a god, but that just shows you do not know the true God.
Scripture shows us that eternal life is knowing God. So, if a person does not know the true God then that person does not have eternal life. The concept is that important.
Pancho Frijoles
Active member
Eternal life is knowing The Father, the Only and True God, and Christ, the One sent by such Only and True God.
Father, the hour has come… This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
(John 17:1, 3)
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