The Trinity made easy

Pancho Frijoles said:
The New Testament is full of sentences where Jesus and the Father are placed together in the same sentence, and the title "God" goes always to the Father, not to Jesus. We can see that later on.
In this passage, the evangelist makes Thomas praise Jesus, as Lord, and also praised God, YHWH, who had risen Him from the dead.
This interpretation is compatible with two robust evidences:
  1. Jesus had just said that His God was the same God of his apostles.
  2. The apostles preached that God the God of Israel (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) had raised Jesus from dead.
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Sorry. The subject in this case is clearly Jesus. Everyone's focus here is clearly the risen Jesus. You are altering the grammar used (changing the subject) and is a violation of grammar.
Pancho Frijoles said:
That verse is important for the topic of preexistence, not for the topic of Jesus deity. Preexistence is not deity.
The expression "I Am" pronounced by Jesus cannot be taken from the context of everything Jesus had said about who he was. He was the One sent by his Father, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Son of Man, the Door, the Way, the Good Shepherd, etc .
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Preexistence is a mark of deity. How many people do you know that have pre-existed before their earthly life? Oh, I forgot. You must believe in Hindu preexistence. If so, that explains your view. That is not a Biblical Christian view.
Pancho Frijoles said:
In addition, even if Jesus was referring to the burning bush, Stephan says that it was an angel, a Messenger from God, who talked to Moses from the burning bush (Acts 7:30). So, even if Jesus was referring to be part of that particular event, he was reminding everyone his role as a Messenger from God.
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That Angel also declared that He is the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So, there is more than just a typical Angel here. I'll do some research and get back to you


30 “And when forty years had passed, an Angel [a]of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, ‘I am the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses trembled and dared not look.
 
mikesw said:
You keep on uttering incoherent ideas. I thought you studied this stuff. Maybe you heard "the Word/Logos became flesh." But you like to make it seem that John 1 is about Greek philosophy or something in a way unrelated to Christ. So far your view is a mystery not yet worth solving.
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I will take that as a No. The word "incarnation" is not in the Bible.
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
In addition, even if Jesus was referring to the burning bush, Stephan says that it was an angel, a Messenger from God, who talked to Moses from the burning bush (Acts 7:30). So, even if Jesus was referring to be part of that particular event, he was reminding everyone his role as a Messenger from God.
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Here is an excellent presentation on the Theophanies (the Pre-Incarnate Manifestations of Christ) in the OT:

 
Peterlag said:
God is not a Word that it could become flesh. If it could then the Catholics would be splashing water on babies in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. and the Word.
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I'm just telling you what that word meant that you couldn't find in the Bible. I believe it was "incarnate." The Word became Jesus and it is He in whose name we are baptized. Including the Father and the Spirit. Not Jesus without the Father and Spirit inside of Him. We are baptized by all three as ONE.
 
civic said:
God is a Trinity of persons, a Tri-Unity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are the one God. Each Person has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are qualities or characteristics of personhood. The Trinity is in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance, essence, nature or being. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Jesus, the Son, is one Divine Person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also Divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.

The word "person" is used to describe the three of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three Persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

What is so hard to understand about God being Triune? The Father is not the the Son. The Son is not the the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. God is a Tri-Unity of 3 Persons who are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not three gods nor is the Trinity three beings. We call them "Persons" because each one of Them have a will, speak, teach, love, receive praise, prayer, share the same Glory, etc. These are all characteristics of person-hood. They are of one substance, nature, essence or Being. You cannot have the Father without the Son, the Son without the Father, The Son without the Holy Spirit or you would not have the God according to Scripture, you would have a false god or what is known as an idol.

Lets discuss

hope this helps,
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Jesus said--John 17:3=The one who sent him=Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

When ones teachers do not match Jesus=RUN FROM THEM.
 
Keiw1 said:
Jesus said--John 17:3=The one who sent him=Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

When ones teachers do not match Jesus=RUN FROM THEM.
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Jesus is speaking against the Pagan Greek Polytheists. The Pagan Greeks were not Trinitarians. Learn some history. Run away from teachers who despise history.
 
charismaticlady said:
I'm just telling you what that word meant that you couldn't find in the Bible. I believe it was "incarnate." The Word became Jesus and it is He in whose name we are baptized. Including the Father and the Spirit. Not Jesus without the Father and Spirit inside of Him. We are baptized by all three as ONE.
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John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
 
Peterlag said:
John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
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Everybody knows that Jesus was born. What you don't know about is the Theophanies of the Pre-Incarnate Jesus in the Old Testament. See a video about that in the following link:

 
Peterlag said:
John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
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I agree with that. However, you must remember that the Word that was the basis for Christ Jesus was eternal and part of God. As I recall it was the downgrading of the Word to "a god" that has separated us because God wrote "Thou shall have no other gods before me. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." They are one.
 
Peterlag said:
Boy you really dug your heels into this trinity thing. I fear I cannot help you.
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Kind of like saying :

You really dig your heels into the Unitarian thing. I fear only God is capable of helping you.

It’s best to present your best argument from scripture with your view of God and give biblical reasons why you reject the response from a trinitarian. The problem in most cases is on both sides there are presuppositions we bring into the argument and in doing so we assume “ the text is not saying what you think it’s saying , but what I believe its saying “.

In doing so we discount the other persons view and deny the text is saying x,y, z.

For example we read the Word was God. All things were created by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. He is before all things. In reading this we see He is responsible for creation ( in the beginning, the same as Gen 1:1).

This Word became flesh , a man John 1:14- abd we beheld His Glory. This alludes to the Shekinah Glory in the OT Tabernacle. It literally means He( the Word who was God) tabernacled among us and we beheld His glory full of Grace and Truth.

But if one comes to the text with a bias( Jesus is not God) then you will refuse to see the meaning of the text and what the author is trying to communicate to his audience. The entire book of John is filled with examples of the Son claiming to be God and equal with the Father. They tried killing Him several times for these claims. For you being a mere man make yourself out to be God.

hope this helps !!!
 
charismaticlady said:
I agree with that. However, you must remember that the Word that was the basis for Christ Jesus was eternal and part of God. As I recall it was the downgrading of the Word to "a god" that has separated us because God wrote "Thou shall have no other gods before me. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." They are one.
Click to expand...
“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” The consistent theme throughout the book of John is that Jesus reveals God the Father to the world. This simple truth demonstrates that Jesus is someone different from God. Many Trinitarian believers see equivalence between Jesus and God in the Gospel of John, however the author seeks to show how Jesus reveals the Father, not how Jesus is the Father. Knowing this helps us understand what Jesus means by phrases like, “whoever has seen me has seen the Father,” (John 14:9) and “I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me” (John 14:11). Neither of these phrases states that Jesus is the Father, nor should they be understood that way. Rather, these verses, when properly seen in light of the rest of the Gospel, demonstrate that God was working so powerfully through Jesus and Jesus was demonstrating God’s character so clearly that when one looked at Jesus, it was as if you were looking at the Father.
 
Peterlag said:
“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” The consistent theme throughout the book of John is that Jesus reveals God the Father to the world. This simple truth demonstrates that Jesus is someone different from God. Many Trinitarian believers see equivalence between Jesus and God in the Gospel of John, however the author seeks to show how Jesus reveals the Father, not how Jesus is the Father. Knowing this helps us understand what Jesus means by phrases like, “whoever has seen me has seen the Father,” (John 14:9) and “I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me” (John 14:11). Neither of these phrases states that Jesus is the Father, nor should they be understood that way. Rather, these verses, when properly seen in light of the rest of the Gospel, demonstrate that God was working so powerfully through Jesus and Jesus was demonstrating God’s character so clearly that when one looked at Jesus, it was as if you were looking at the Father.
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Trinitarians don’t believe He is the Father but distinct as a Divine Person. They are One but not each other. So we can affirm He came to reveal the Father and His will without a problem in our theology.
 
civic said:
Kind of like saying :

You really dig your heels into the Unitarian thing. I fear only God is capable of helping you.

It’s best to present your best argument from scripture with your view of God and give biblical reasons why you reject the response from a trinitarian. The problem in most cases is on both sides there are presuppositions we bring into the argument and in doing so we assume “ the text is not saying what you think it’s saying , but what I believe its saying “.

In doing so we discount the other persons view and deny the text is saying x,y, z.

For example we read the Word was God. All things were created by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. He is before all things. In reading this we see He is responsible for creation ( in the beginning, the same as Gen 1:1).

This Word became flesh , a man John 1:14- abd we beheld His Glory. This alludes to the Shekinah Glory in the OT Tabernacle. It literally means He( the Word who was God) tabernacled among us and we beheld His glory full of Grace and Truth.

But if one comes to the text with a bias( Jesus is not God) then you will refuse to see the meaning of the text and what the author is trying to communicate to his audience. The entire book of John is filled with examples of the Son claiming to be God and equal with the Father. They tried killing Him several times for these claims. For you being a mere man make yourself out to be God.

hope this helps !!!
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It was my last statement to him. I really feel I cannot be of help to him.
 
Peterlag said:
It was my last statement to him. I really feel I cannot be of help to him.
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It’s true with everyone who draws a line in the sand regardless of which side one is on in the debate.

I was a hard nosed Calvinist for many decades and debated it daily online. Not until God opened up my eyes and I started asking honest questions about God was I led out of that theological system of thought. No one could tell me otherwise before that because I had my presuppositions I defended at all costs.
 
civic said:
It’s true with everyone who draws a line in the sand regardless of which side one is on in the debate.

I was a hard nosed Calvinist for many decades and debated it daily online. Not until God opened up my eyes and I started asking honest questions about God was I led out of that theological system of thought. No one could tell me otherwise before that because I had my presuppositions I defended at all costs.
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I have been mad for 10 years since I found out my teachers were wrong.
 

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