The Trinity made easy

[praise_yeshua]

We all know your best shot is to play word games; to contrive an oddly worded question in the hopes of the desired answer.

A pregnant woman is one person.

If you are breathing for 2 people or eating for 2 people, it does not make you 2 people.

Per the Shema, God is one, alone. No translation says God is 3-in-1.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Does Jesus Christ perfectly reflect the Father?

 

[Johann]

Theophany.......

Correct-not Christophany-Theophany of the pre-existent Messiah

1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Johann.

 

[civic]

Correct-not Christophany-Theophany of the pre-existent Messiah

1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Johann.

lol a Christophany is the pre incarnate Son appearing to men in the O.T.

 

[Wrangler]

Does Jesus Christ perfectly reflect the Father?

Yes. Like a mirror, he reflects that which is not him.

My turn to ask a question.

Have you ever wondered why there is always a pesky OF regarding Jesus’ relationship to God - servant, lamb, word, son - rather than ever IS God? What do you suppose it means?

 

[atpollard]

lol a Christophany is the pre incarnate Son appearing to men in the O.T.

That is a controversial definition. Merriam-Webster, for example, restricts Christophany to post-ascension appearances (like the Road to Damascus). Whether the “Angel of the Lord” is Christ or merely “God” is debated among scholars, making “Theophany” always correct in the OT and “Chrisophany” subject to debate when applied to the OT.

[Personally, I like OT Christophany for events like the fourth man in the fire in Daniel. However, I have to admit that it is less “cut and dry” than the “Road to Damascus”.]

 

[civic]

That is a controversial definition. Merriam-Webster, for example, restricts Christophany to post-ascension appearances (like the Road to Damascus). Whether the “Angel of the Lord” is Christ or merely “God” is debated among scholars, making “Theophany” always correct in the OT and “Chrisophany” subject to debate when applied to the OT.

[Personally, I like OT Christophany for events like the fourth man in the fire in Daniel. However, I have to admit that it is less “cut and dry” than the “Road to Damascus”.]

No a Christophany is the appearenace of Christ in the O.T. A Theophany is the appearance of God in the O.T.

I can make the biblical case they are one in the same since Christ is God and the Father never appeared to anyone. No man has seen the Father except the Son and no one has heard His voice according to Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

No a Christophany is the appearenace of Christ in the O.T. A Theophany is the appearance of God in the O.T.

I can make the biblical case they are one and the same since Christ is God and the Father never appeared to anyone. No man has seen the Father except the Son and no one has heard His voice according to Jesus.

I just checked several dictionaries and mentioned what they said.
I got no dog in that fight.

Why couldn’t the Pillar of Fire be the HS? Why the Son?

 

[civic]

I just checked several dictionaries and mentioned what they said.
I got no dog in that fight.

Why couldn’t the Pillar of Fire be the HS? Why the Son?

oh the pillar of fire is not the Father or the Son. I'm specifically talking about the Angel of the Lord who is called YHWH numerous times and worshiped.

 

[atpollard]

oh the pillar of fire is not the Father or the Son. I'm specifically talking about the Angel of the Lord who is called YHWH numerous times and worshiped.

Then which OT Theophany offers salvation from sin and MUST be a Christophany?

 

[Wrangler]

no one has heard His voice according to Jesus.

This must be taken figuratively for God spoke to Moses, to the people who exited Egypt who were terrified of his voice, at Jesus’ baptism and the transfiguration.

 

[civic]

This must be taken figuratively for God spoke to Moses, to the people who exited Egypt who were terrified of his voice, at Jesus’ baptism and the transfiguration.

No Jesus said no man has seen the Father or heard His voice

 

[Wrangler]

No Jesus said no man has seen the Father or heard His voice

Right, which must mean not figuratively heard his voice - meaning not understood - since I cited numerous instances of people actually hearing God's voice.

Don't just say no. I did not ask a yes or no question. Address the fact that numerous people heard God's voice and reconcile that with Jesus' comment.

 

[Johann]

From what I can tell, trinitarians have a working monopoly on Circular Reasoning but I admit it is not necessarily exclusive to them.

Let's do a little test. Is God one or three?

@Wrangler

"In the beginning" This reflects Genesis 1:1 and is also used in 1 John 1:1 as a reference to the incarnation. It is possible that 1 John was a cover letter to the Gospel. Both deal with Gnosticism.

John 1:1-5 is an affirmation of Jesus Christ's divine pre-existence before creation (cf. John 1:15,30; 8:56-59; 16:28; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:6-7; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3; 10:5-9 quotes Ps. 40:6-8).

In the NT Jesus is described as

a new creation, not marred by the Fall (i.e., Gen. 3:15 fulfilled for mankind)
a new conquest (Promised Land)
a new exodus (fulfilled prophecy)
a new Moses (law giver)
a new Joshua (cf. Heb. 4:8)
a new water miracle (cf. Hebrews 3-4)
new manna (cf. John 6)
and so many more, especially in Hebrews.



"was" (thrice)

This is an IMPERFECT TENSE (cf. John 1:1,2,4,10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This TENSE is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. John 8:57-58; 17:5,24; 2 Cor. 8:9; Col. 1:17; Heb. 10:5-9).

It is contrasted with the AORIST TENSES of John 1:3 (i.e., creation), 6 (i.e., John the Baptist, and 14 (i.e., the incarnation).

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

"with God"

"With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations. The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.



"the Word was God" This VERB is IMPERFECT TENSE as in John 1:1a. There is no ARTICLE (which identifies the SUBJECT, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and John 1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. John 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1).

Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1 John 4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.


The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in John 1:1; 5:18; 10:30,34-38; 14:9-10; and 20:28, while their distinct persons are emphasized in John 1:2,14,18; 5:19-23; 8:28; 10:25,29; 14:11,12,13,16.

The Beloved Disciple's Memoirs and Letters: The Gospel of John, 1, 2 and 3 John

Bible commentary on the Gospel and letters of John, by Dr. Bob Utley, retired professor of hermeneutics.

www.freebiblecommentary.org

You cannot run around this.
Johann

 

[civic]

Right, which must mean not figuratively heard his voice - meaning not understood - since I cited numerous instances of people actually hearing God's voice.

Don't just say no. I did not ask a yes or no question. Address the fact that numerous people heard God's voice and reconcile that with Jesus' comment.

Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wrangler]

He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.

LOL. Except Jesus has a body and God does not. Except Jesus was born and God was not. Except Jesus died and God did not. Except Jesus submitted to the will of God and God did not submit to the will of Jesus. The absurdity of your claim is such that only a trinitarian could believe it.

You cannot run around this.

LOL. When you say, "God the Father" keep in mind that there is no other God. The name of God is YHWH. Our relationship to him is that of children.

It's so funny how you keep proving yourself wrong. In a thread called making the trinity easy, you resort to writing numerous paragraphs.

 

[Wrangler]

Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

A question does not actually reconcile situation. Are you denying that God spoke to Moses?

 

[Johann]

hope this helps !!!

YHWH (יהוה)
Seen, yet not seen.

Not seen.
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
...“you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
(ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את-פני כי לא-יראני האדם וחי)
...and while my glory passes by... but my face shall not be seen.”

Yet seen
Exodus 33:11 Thus YHWH (יהוה) used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
(וגבר יהוה אל-משה פנים אל פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל-רעהו)

Seen by: Hagar
ותקרא שם-יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי
Genesis 16:7-14
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) found her...

And he said, “Hagar...
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) also said to her,
“I will surely multiply your offspring...”

Hagar recognised that it was God speaking to her.

So she called the name of YHWH (יהוה) who spoke to her,
“You are a God of seeing,” for she said,
“Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.
” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi (באר לחי ראי)
Seen by: Abraham

Genesis 22:11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17–18
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) speaks to Abraham:

Malakh YHWH (יהוה) called to [Abraham]... He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) identifies himself as YHWH (יהוה)

...the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) called to Abraham a second time... and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares YHWH (יהוה), because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son, ...I will greatly bless you... because you have obeyed my voice.”

Whose voice?

The one speaking - the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה), who is YHWH (יהוה)

Genesis 18-19

Genesis 18 begins by saying YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham (וירא אליו יהוה).
Genesis 18:2 tells us how YHWH (יהוה) appeared to him.

He raised his eyes (וישא עיניו) and saw three men (וירא והנה שלשה אנשים).

It is interesting that in Genesis 18:3 he addresses one of the men using the title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) reserved only for YHWH (אדנָ֗י אם-נא מצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך)

And we know he is addressing one of the men because it's all masculine singular.

It's only in Genesis 18:4-5 that he addresses all three (רחצו רגליכם והשענו).

So in this introduction we are informed that

YHWH appeared to Abraham.

Of the three men Abraham addressed,

one is Adonay (אדנָ֗י), a title reserved exclusively for YHWH.

The three remain under the tree and are entertained by Abraham (Genesis 18:8).

(ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן-הבקר אשר עשה ויתן לפניהם והוא עמד עליהם תחת העץ ויאכלו)

They ask where Sarah might be and then one of them, YHWH (יהוה) speaks in Genesis 18:9 and says he will return the following year. (ויאמרו אליו איה שרה אשתך ויאמר הנה באהל)

We know it's YHWH because Genesis 21:1-2 tells us

"So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him."

Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.

Who was she listening to?

The three men under the tree,

One of whom was Adonay (אדנָ֗י).

When she laughed at what God had just said to Abraham, the identity of Adonay was made plain in Genesis 18:13,

"YHWH (יהוה) said to Abraham..." (ויאמר יהוה אל-אברהם)

The three men got up to go in Genesis 18:16

and Abraham walked with them (ויקמו משם האנשים וישקפו ואברהם הלך עמם).

YHWH (יהוה) spoke again from Genesis 18:17 (ויהוה אמר וינר יהוה).

Genesis 18:22 tells us that:

The men turned away towards Sodom (ויפנו משם האנשים וילכו סדמה) but Abraham stayed with YHWH (יהוה) (ואברהם עודנו עמד לפמני יהוה)

How do we know only two left?

Because Genesis 19:1 tells us that two messengers (שני המלאכים שני) arrived at Sodom.

Where was the third?

Back with Abraham obviously.

After some haggling about Sodom YHWH (יהוה) eventually left and Abraham returned to his tent (וילך יהוה).

God walked off to join the others.

YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) is mentioned then in Genesis 19:17 outside Sodom where he has rejoined the other two (ויאמר המלט).

Lot answered Adonay (אדנָ֗י), "... no my Lord..." ( אל-נא אדנָ֗י).

Genesis 19:19 contains words in the masculine singular.

Lot pleads with YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) .
Then in Genesis 19:24

YHWH (יהוה), one of the men, addressed earlier with the divine title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is described as... YHWH (יהוה).

And YHWH (יהוה) standing there causes fire to rain down from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.





YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham as Adonay (אדנָ֗י), one of the three men, to speak about the promised son and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. His appearance is human and according to Genesis 19:24 he is separate from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.

And YHWH (יהוה) - subject of the sentence

...caused it to rain (המטיר - hifil, causative sense) on Sodom and Gomorrah...

from YHWH (יהוה) - מאת יהוה - direct object את of the sentence with preposition מן pointing to source)

...out of heaven (מן השמים - and the origin).

YHWH (יהוה) is the subject

standing and speaking with Lot

and he causes it to rain fire etc

from another source, heaven

and another object who is also YHWH (יהוה).

The one YHWH (יהוה) is the subject of the sentence

who directs another called YHWH (יהוה)

who is in another location (השמים) to cause the action.

Subject (יהוה) - Action: caused rain (המטיר) - Object and source: (מאת יהוה) - Location (מן השמים)


There is a difference in the use of Adonay in the Tanakh.

In Genesis 18:3 it reads: ויאמר אדנָ֗י אם-נא נמצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך
Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is the subject and has singular pronouns associated with it (בעיניך, עבדך - 'your' singular) and a singular verb (תעבר)
Whereas, in Genesis 19:2 it reads

ויאמר הנה נא-אדנָ֗י סורו נא אל-בית עבדכם ולינו ורחצו רגליכם יהשכמתם והלכתם לדרככם ויאמרו לא כי ברחוב נלין

Adonay (אדנַ֗י), pointed with a patach, is the subject and has plural pronouns ( דרככם עבדכם רגליכם השכנתם ) and plural verbs (לינו סורו רחצו).

So in Genesis 18:3 Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is sort of a plural of majesty (like elohim [אלהים]) and is used with the masculine singular. It is always and only used of YHWH (יהוה) in this way and is translated Lord, whereas in Genesis 19:2 Adonay (אדנַ֗י) is a straight plural used with plural pronouns and verbs and is translated 'lords'.


Seen by: Jacob
ויקרא יעקב שם המקום פניאל כי-ראיתי אלהים פנים אל פנים ותנצל נפשי
Genesis 32:24-30
...Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him...
When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob,
[the man] touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with [the man]...
you have striven with God...
Then Jacob asked [the man],
“Please tell me your name.”
But [the man] said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”
And there [the man] blessed him...
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying,
“For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Who is Malakh YHWH?

fireprior.com

 

[Wrangler]

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

BTW, I am not challenging that no one saw God. So, you do not have to keep trying to prove it.

 

[Wrangler]

Seen, yet not seen.

You are unable to differentiate between between the literal and the figurative.

 

[Johann]

LOL. Except Jesus has a body and God does not. Except Jesus was born and God was not. Except Jesus died and God did not. Except Jesus submitted to the will of God and God did not submit to the will of Jesus. The absurdity of your claim is such that only a trinitarian could believe it.

I have proven-from Scriptures-the absurdity of your claims

LOL. When you say, "God the Father" keep in mind that there is no other God. The name of God is YHWH. Our relationship to him is that of children.

Again-no need to take excerpts of my post-Jesus Christ preexisted with YHVH-something that is being denied on this Forum-Christ's full Deity and do look up "WAS" in John 1:1-it is in the Imperfect-you claim you know the Koine Greek grammars-what does it tell you?

I am full on Trinitarian-but not here to coerce or convince you otherwise-your problem is you are confused re Jesus as Man-yet fully God.
Shalom brother.
J.