The Trinity and the Incarnation

charismaticlady said:
Peter read Titus.

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

I didn't realize Jesus was God until I read this verse. I even wrote Jesus is God in the margin in big letters! That was almost 50 years ago.
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The verse says our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. It does not say our great God who is the savior Jesus Christ.
 
Lymphatic said:
Socinianism is marked by several key theological beliefs that sharply deviate from historic Christian orthodoxy. These include a rationalistic interpretation of Scripture, a rejection of the Trinity, and a denial of Christ’s substitutionary atonement and His Deity.
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Again, they have the trinity part correct.
 
amazing grace said:
To anyone: I've never put anyone on ignore - can someone tell me how? thanks
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I have Runningman on Ignore, unless I see someones replying to his name and I cannot resist bringing Runningman back to action.

You do unignore the same way you put on ignore.

I have Peterlag on Ignore, and here to,, unless I see someone replying to his name and I cannot help myself I'll bring him back to action

And I also have charismaticlady on ignore.

I guess you can assume why.
 
Rory Wilson said:
This I hope may help understand the Trinity. I know it helped me.

But it is in his exposition of the Trinity that Dr. Fairbairn is most precise. God ‘is by His essence a society.’ The three Persons are the three members of this society. Viewed from within, God is ‘love in eternal exercise, existing through personal distinctions, yet in community of life, … in ceaseless flow and ebb, streaming from its source in the eternal Subject, retreating from its eternal Object, moving in the unbeginning, unending cycle which is the bosom of the Infinite.’

It is, I think, impossible to attach any real meaning to such language as this without taking the term ‘Person’ in the doctrine of the Trinity in quite the modern English sense, in which a person is one having a clear individuality of his own. It is quite true that in the historical theology of the Church it will not bear that meaning. The English word is a translation of a Latin word for a character, and the Latin word itself is a very faulty translation of a Greek word (Hypostasis) meaning an aspect or manifestation.

But it seems quite clear that two sides of one person cannot be said to love one another, nor can three aspects or manifestations of one being love one another. So that, if we are to take Dr. Fairbairn’s account of the Godhead, it certainly comprises three several Persons loving one another. Nor does Dr. Fairbairn make any attempt to disclaim this plain meaning of his own language beyond the courageous, but startling expedient of calling these three Persons collectively ‘He,’ as though they were obviously, not a plural, but a singular.

The germ of this conception, so far as the first and second persons of the Trinity are concerned, will be found in the late Richard Holt Hutton’s treatise on The Incarnation and Principles of Evidence, in his volume of Theological Essays. He there contends that it is necessary to think of the Son as eternally associated with the Father, if we are to believe that love is of the essential nature of God; because love in its essence is social, and God’s love could not otherwise find an object prior to the existence of created things.

The simple answer seems to be that there is no need to suppose that there ever was a time when God was not already calling into being objects for his love. But, in any case, Mr. Hutton’s suggestion does not go the length of Dr. Fairbairn’s. I believe that in the crude and naked form in which a Society, whether of two or of three persons, receiving and bestowing affection among themselves, is put forward by the Principal of Mansfield and, as we shall see, by many popular contemporary theologians, is almost entirely a phenomenon of the last few years.

When Dr. Fairbairn proceeds to portion out the functions of the three several Persons in the Trinity, or rather those of the second and the third, the confusion becomes still more perplexing. Orthodox theology teaches that the Word is incarnated in Christ, and the Word is the second Person of the Trinity. But Dr. Fairbairn tells us that it is by the Holy Spirit that Christ performs his mighty works, and the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity.

And so he goes on to say that Christ and the Holy Spirit are ‘coefficient energies, or co-essential persons.’ Neither could have worked effectively without the other. The Spirit is suddenly substituted to fulfil the offices hitherto ascribed to the Word. It is the ever haunting difficulty of rationalising orthodox theologians to keep clear the functions of the first and second Persons of the Trinity and to prevent their merging into one.
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Terms found nowhere in Scripture...
  • Deity
  • Co-equal
  • Co-eternal
  • Incarnated
  • Eternal son
  • Infinite son
  • God the son
  • One substance
  • Persons of God
  • God became man
  • Eternally begotten
  • Pre-existent Christ
  • God the Holy Spirit
  • Pre-incarnate Christ
  • Three persons, three in one
  • Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
  • Two nature's, Hypostatic union
Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.
 
Bubba said:
Does each one of the three Members of the Trinity have a unique function?

I think they do. Unique functions all lead to the same purpose.

I heard someone explain it this way. "The Father thinks it the Son speaks it and the Holy Spirit makes it happen."

I've heard it said that the Holy Spirit is often overlooked. I think he's very important myself. Otherwise why would Jesus leave us the Holy Spirit?

God the Holy Spirit functions as the life-giving agent of creation and new creation. The Spirit is the principal agent of biblical revelation, illumination, and persuasion. He also brings about the conviction, regeneration, and transformation of the hearts of sinners.

according to Christian theology, Jesus is often referred to as God’s spoken word. This concept is primarily derived from the Gospel of John, which begins with the statement:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). The term “Word” here is translated from the Greek word “Logos,” which means “spoken word” or "statement"

In God’s plan of salvation, God Himself is the only one who can provide for our Salvation. So He sent Jesus.
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"The Father thinks it the Son speaks it and the Holy Spirit makes it happen." That's a good analogy.

This is a summary of a theological concept known as the inseparable operations of the Trinity, where the Father thinks, the Son speaks, and the Holy Spirit acts, though they all work in perfect, unified action. This view holds that God's essence is one, but consists of three distinct persons who are inseparable in their divine power and work. The Father originates the will, the Son expresses it, and the Holy Spirit executes it.
 
FreeInChrist said:
Why would anyone then bow down or worship him?

Are you gonna bow down to me? I give you a pass on the worship.

Starting at the beginning.... all KJV.

Matt 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Romans 14:11
It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”

Hebrews 1:6 "

And agai when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of of God worship him.

Philippians 2:9-10
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Rev 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
  • Bowing down signifies submission and reverence. In the New Testament, this act is directed towards Jesus, affirming his divine status and authority.
These references illustrate the recognition of Jesus as worthy of worship, aligning with the biblical tradition of bowing down before God.

The Lamb Exalted
…13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!” 14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Berean Standard Bible · Download

Theological Significance

The call to worship and bow down is not merely a ritualistic practice but a theological affirmation of God's lordship. It acknowledges His majesty and our dependence on Him. Worship is both a personal and communal act, reflecting the believer's relationship with God and the unity of the body of Christ.

The act of bowing down and worshiping Jesus is often interpreted as an indication of His divinity, as worship is reserved for God alone in biblical texts. This is supported by instances in the New Testament where individuals worship Jesus, suggesting that He holds a divine status.

DO YOU WANT MORE?
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proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication; A. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, a. to the Jewish high priests, b. to God, c. to Christ, d. to heavenly beings, e. to demons

In the culture of that time and even in the Eastern culture today, it is the custom to bow to others as a sign of special respect and honor. OT - šāḥâ - 1. (Hithpael) to bow down, prostrate oneself; a. before superior in homage; b. before God in worship; c. before false gods; d. before angels . . . . In the OT kings were given 'homage', i.e. worship - And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king. [1 Chronicles 29:20]

In Revelation 3 to the church of Philadelphia, i.e. the congregation - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. . . . The congregation of the church is worshiped.

So reverence, honor, and praise (the biblical meaning of worship) are given to people out of respect not because someone is deity.

BTW, thank you for the information you provided about using the 'ignore' feature. :)
 
amazing grace said:
proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication; A. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, a. to the Jewish high priests, b. to God, c. to Christ, d. to heavenly beings, e. to demons

In the culture of that time and even in the Eastern culture today, it is the custom to bow to others as a sign of special respect and honor. OT - šāḥâ - 1. (Hithpael) to bow down, prostrate oneself; a. before superior in homage; b. before God in worship; c. before false gods; d. before angels . . . . In the OT kings were given 'homage', i.e. worship - And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king. [1 Chronicles 29:20]

In Revelation 3 to the church of Philadelphia, i.e. the congregation - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. . . . The congregation of the church is worshiped.

So reverence, honor, and praise (the biblical meaning of worship) are given to people out of respect not because someone is deity.

BTW, thank you for the information you provided about using the 'ignore' feature. :)
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I am like Jesus so I will expect you to bow down before me.
 
amazing grace said:
proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication; A. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, a. to the Jewish high priests, b. to God, c. to Christ, d. to heavenly beings, e. to demons

In the culture of that time and even in the Eastern culture today, it is the custom to bow to others as a sign of special respect and honor. OT - šāḥâ - 1. (Hithpael) to bow down, prostrate oneself; a. before superior in homage; b. before God in worship; c. before false gods; d. before angels . . . . In the OT kings were given 'homage', i.e. worship - And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king. [1 Chronicles 29:20]

In Revelation 3 to the church of Philadelphia, i.e. the congregation - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. . . . The congregation of the church is worshiped.

So reverence, honor, and praise (the biblical meaning of worship) are given to people out of respect not because someone is deity.

BTW, thank you for the information you provided about using the 'ignore' feature. :)
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I will bet you my car @FreeInChrist would have the Christ on ignore if Jesus was on this site.
 
amazing grace said:
proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication; A. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, a. to the Jewish high priests, b. to God, c. to Christ, d. to heavenly beings, e. to demons

In the culture of that time and even in the Eastern culture today, it is the custom to bow to others as a sign of special respect and honor. OT - šāḥâ - 1. (Hithpael) to bow down, prostrate oneself; a. before superior in homage; b. before God in worship; c. before false gods; d. before angels . . . . In the OT kings were given 'homage', i.e. worship - And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king. [1 Chronicles 29:20]

In Revelation 3 to the church of Philadelphia, i.e. the congregation - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. . . . The congregation of the church is worshiped.

So reverence, honor, and praise (the biblical meaning of worship) are given to people out of respect not because someone is deity.

BTW, thank you for the information you provided about using the 'ignore' feature. :)
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How about using it on me.... We can ignore each other
 

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mikesw said:
I am like Jesus so I will expect you to bow down before me.
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What have you done that deserves any respect, honor or praise from me?
 
Peterlag said:
Others (not me) say on other sites that people can't debate me, so they mock me. Others would say the same if they saw me on these sites.

cc: @praise_yeshua
@mikesw
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Honestly, I think people just get frustrated sometimes and it can be tempting to take some jabs, but that doesn't make it right. Debating can be a lot of hard work, especially proving the trinity is false to every new trinitarian that runs up with a spring in their step and a chip on their shoulder, repeating the same handful of 5 or 6 verses the others did at first, after you had just mopped the floor with them, so to speak. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Remember, you have the entire Bible at your disposal and it's yours. They mainly rely on post-Biblical doctrines and philosophy so you have the advantage.
 
Last edited:
charismaticlady said:
Peter read Titus.

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

I didn't realize Jesus was God until I read this verse. I even wrote Jesus is God in the margin in big letters! That was almost 50 years ago.
Click to expand...
In the Greek, the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ are two distinct persons. Here's the correct version.

Titus 2
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
 

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