The Trinity and the Incarnation

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture says Jesus is my brother.

Just realize, I'm not like anyone you've meet. You can't use these arguments you're trying to use on me. I make my own arguments. I don't repeat what someone else said because I'm lazy and can't think myself.

Where did Jesus say he was your brother? If you're a Jew, I'd love to know how you're a Jew. It is my position that there is no earthly way to discern the ethnic brother's of Jesus from the remainder of this world. Ethnic Jews have so intermixed with Gentiles that they can't possibly claim ethnicity as brothers to Jesus. I'm not saying there isn't any, I am saying I'd love to understand how they know.

They can wear the clothes. They can grow the "payos", it doesn't make them part of the ethnic lineage of Jesus Christ. Christ is the sole heir of all things in Abraham.

You're ignoring what I said about Cain. Is Cain your brother too? If you're going to claim lineage in Adam (which you should) then your brother is also Cain.

Yes, I posted scripture that said Jesus is.

I admitted I was not perfect.

I said it was good that you did. We can have a productive conversation if you really believe this.

Every Unitarian that I've ever gotten into a meaningful discussion with over the years ultimately claims what they must to be true to their belief. They all claim to have equal access and rights to the Father as Jesus did.

So don't waste my time. Make that argument and I'll dismantle it.

 

[amazing grace]

To anyone: I've never put anyone on ignore - can someone tell me how? thanks

 

[Runningman]

To anyone: I've never put anyone on ignore - can someone tell me how? thanks

You can mouse-over someone's name, then click Ignore in the pop-up box. I personally don't ignore anyone, but it's useful sometimes. I'll show you a screenshot of how it works.

 

[amazing grace]

You can mouse-over someone's name, then click Ignore in the pop-up box. I personally don't ignore anyone, but it's useful sometimes. I'll show you a screenshot of how it works.

View attachment 2512

Thank you so much.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To anyone: I've never put anyone on ignore - can someone tell me how? thanks

There is a link at the bottom of the page that takes you to the Xenforo Ltd website. There is a help section there or you can ask an AI or use a web search engine. There are many ways to find that information. I mean you did use a search engine earlier to find the content you posted.

I'll leave you alone. You don't have to put me on ignore but you certain can if you want to. Enjoy your life.

I do recommend that you stop disparaging Jesus Christ. You'll face Him one day. I wouldn't want to say what Unitarians say about Jesus Christ and tend face Him later.

I'd say it will be very awkward for you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can mouse-over someone's name, then click Ignore in the pop-up box. I personally don't ignore anyone, but it's useful sometimes. I'll show you a screenshot of how it works.

View attachment 2512

Always so helpful to your fellow Unitarians. Do you expect to be rewarded for such? Penance on your part?

Do you actually want to start where he left off? I'll give you a little time. You're always evading. Maybe you'll do differently this time.

So tell me how you're just like your brother Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Always so helpful to your fellow Unitarians. Do you expect to be rewarded for such? Penance on your part?

Do you actually want to start where he left off? I'll give you a little time. You're always evading. Maybe you'll do differently this time.

So tell me how you're just like your brother Jesus.

I would help anyone out if they asked me for something. So far I haven't seen anyone ask for anything aside from amazing grace.

I haven't been following the thread much except for when people reply to me. If I remember correctly, you're a trinitarian and you reject the exclusive deity of the Father.

What did you want to talk about? Bring up any point you wish to talk about.

 

[charismaticlady]

Don't confuse what he believes with what you believe. We've discussed this before. He isn't like you.

I will remind you, that you're a very poor representation of the Father. I know you think you are because you can read some verses in the Bible you claim are for you. You can't simply claim them and not prove it.

I think I've asked you this before but I'll ask again. Maybe they can understand how poorly they represent the Father while claiming that Jesus is just like them......

I've been rather good over the years of point out the obvious.

So why do you need to be resurrected from the grave if you're just like Jesus now? I don't expect you to answer. Surprise me.

Jesus was raised from the dead, and so will I be.

Now, exactly how are Peterlag and I different? From what you said about me, you think Peter is right, and I am wrong so don't compare myself with him. Is that what you are saying? That is reviling talk.

 

[Peterlag]

All the bloviating dung and you're still not paying attention or intentionally ignoring the obvious.

No one can say that when they've "seen/known" you, that they've known the Father.

Yes. This is about you. You're nothing like the Father. Jesus is. You're not. Your friend isn't either.

Now you're comparing me to Jesus and you still think you're right. I am not Jesus and thus, I don't always do the Fathers will. And that means when you see me you don't see the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

What Paul Really Taught About Jesus...​

Paul never preached Jesus as God Himself, but as God’s chosen man, Messiah, and mediator — exalted by God.

1 Timothy 2:5 — “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
One God — not two or three — and Jesus is the mediator, not the God He mediates to.

1 Corinthians 8:6 — “For us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.”
The Father is the source, Jesus is the channel.

Philippians 2:9 — “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place.”
Jesus didn’t exalt himself — God exalted him.

1 Corinthians 11:3 — “The head of Christ is God.”
Jesus is under God’s authority.

Romans 8:34 — “Christ is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us.”
He prays to God — not as God.

1 Corinthians 15:28 — “Then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Even at the end, Jesus remains subject to the Father.

Paul’s message is crystal clear:
One God — the Father.
One Lord — Jesus Christ, His exalted Son and mediator.
That is the gospel Paul preached.

 

[Daniel]

What I think about the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, and especially of the Incarnation—a doctrine which has played an immense part in the history of religion, and still does so: a doctrine which has drawn to itself the passionate enthusiasm and devotion of millions of Christian hearts. I think this doctrine should be our chief theme.

We are to try to understand what it means, and to consider as deeply as we can whether it is true or untrue, well knowing that, since truth is simply God’s own thought, the truth regarding any doctrine, whether confirming or destroying it, must be the best and holiest for us to hold.

So lets continual to weigh this doctrine, so widely and earnestly held, in the balance, desiring only to draw as near as may be to the actual truth of God, which must be the best and holiest for the mind of man to hold.

I personaly hold to "The Deity of Christ." I think is a foundational doctrine in Christian theology, affirming that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. My belief is rooted in Scripture and has been a central tenet of orthodox Christianity since the early church.

This doctrine asserts that Jesus possesses the same divine nature as God the Father, making Him co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Biblical Evidence From Bible Hub

1. Divine Titles and Names: The New Testament ascribes to Jesus titles and names that denote divinity. In John 1:1, it is declared, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This passage identifies Jesus (the Word) as God. Similarly, in John 20:28, Thomas addresses Jesus as "My Lord and my God!" affirming His divine status.

2. Divine Attributes: Jesus is described as possessing attributes that belong solely to God. In Colossians 1:16-17, it is stated, "For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." This passage attributes omnipotence and pre-existence to Christ. Furthermore, Hebrews 13:8 declares, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever," indicating His immutability.

3. Divine Works: The works of Jesus further testify to His deity. He performs acts that only God can do, such as forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7), raising the dead (John 11:43-44), and exercising authority over nature (Mark 4:39). In John 10:30, Jesus states, "I and the Father are one," implying unity in essence and purpose with God the Father.

4. Worship and Prayer: Jesus receives worship, which is due only to God. In Matthew 14:33, after Jesus walks on water, the disciples worship Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God." Additionally, in Philippians 2:10-11, it is proclaimed that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

5. The Incarnation: The doctrine of the Incarnation is central to understanding the deity of Christ. John 1:14 states, "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us." This verse affirms that Jesus, while fully divine, took on human nature. The virgin birth, as described in Matthew 1:23, fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

6. Equality with God: Philippians 2:6-7 speaks of Christ's divine status: "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness." This passage highlights both His divine nature and His humility in becoming human.

Historical Affirmation

The early church councils, such as the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, affirmed the deity of Christ in response to various heresies. The Nicene Creed, a product of this council, explicitly states that Jesus Christ is "true God from true God," underscoring His divine nature.

Theological Implications

The deity of Christ is essential for the Christian understanding of salvation. Only a divine Savior can mediate between God and humanity, offering a perfect sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 9:14 emphasizes the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice: "How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"

In summary, the deity of Christ is a doctrine deeply rooted in Scripture, affirmed by the early church, and vital for the Christian faith. It underscores the belief that Jesus is not merely a prophet or moral teacher but God incarnate, worthy of worship and the source of eternal salvation.

 

[Runningman]

Now you're comparing me to Jesus and you still think you're right. I am not Jesus and thus, I don't always do the Fathers will. And that means when you see me you don't see the Father.

All the bloviating dung and you're still not paying attention or intentionally ignoring the obvious.

No one can say that when they've "seen/known" you, that they've known the Father.

Yes. This is about you. You're nothing like the Father. Jesus is. You're not. Your friend isn't either.

Whoever receives the apostles receives Jesus and therefore receives the Father. Jesus taught that there is a connected chain, so to speak, so that by extension the Father can be received by receiving the apostles.

John 13
20Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever receives the one I send receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives the One who sent Me.”

So the way people see the Father in Jesus was in the way Jesus represented the Father, much like how Moses did in Exodus 7:1, the angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:2-6, and believers in general do per 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 and Colossians 3:10. Yet no one is God just because they represent God.

 

[Runningman]

What I think about the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, and especially of the Incarnation—a doctrine which has played an immense part in the history of religion, and still does so: a doctrine which has drawn to itself the passionate enthusiasm and devotion of millions of Christian hearts. I think this doctrine should be our chief theme.

We are to try to understand what it means, and to consider as deeply as we can whether it is true or untrue, well knowing that, since truth is simply God’s own thought, the truth regarding any doctrine, whether confirming or destroying it, must be the best and holiest for us to hold.

So lets continual to weigh this doctrine, so widely and earnestly held, in the balance, desiring only to draw as near as may be to the actual truth of God, which must be the best and holiest for the mind of man to hold.

I personaly hold to "The Deity of Christ." I think is a foundational doctrine in Christian theology, affirming that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. My belief is rooted in Scripture and has been a central tenet of orthodox Christianity since the early church.

This doctrine asserts that Jesus possesses the same divine nature as God the Father, making Him co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe the longevity of a doctrine and the number of adherents it has is an accurate yardstick to gauge what is true? There are religions and doctrines just as old, if not older, than trinitarianism. So what is old and currently has a lot of adherents is not necessarily what is right.

Is it possible for people to be deceived in droves because they were denied basic access to Scripture? It happened. That was the way that the Catholic church was able to control the narrative. In the Middle Ages the Catholic church maintained that the Scriptures should be read and interpreted only under "church" authority and primarily in Latin, which wasn't the common language of the people.

That with imposing jail time, torture, and/or execution on those who broke narrative or were caught with Scripture, they maintained control over doctrines and reinforced this for centuries until until people had believed so many lies that they didn't know which way was up or down.

So are those the kind of people you want telling you what to believe? The very same people who would no sooner burn someone at a stake for correctly rejecting the trinity are the same people who were slamming shut the gates of heaven in peoples' faces. They were/are a corrupt organization.

Then there was the Protestant reformation led by radical anti-semite Martin Luther and his famous Nintey-Five Theses who challenged the Catholic church's authority, teachings, and practices. It became a massive movement, but it really didn't go far enough.

One thing to be aware of regarding the history of your church is where it all started, how it got there, what happened, and where it is now. I am only telling you an extremely abbreviated version of how it all went down. Pretty much anything the Catholics invented is a red flag, which makes the trinity and all of its supporting doctrines suspicous, yet the Protestant groups really aren't that much different aside from some nuances.

I would recommend you keep an open mind, don't assume the things they told you are true, and try to open the Bible with a fresh set of eyes and see what it says for yourself. A lot of people have a tough time with this, but the Father can help you if you humbly and sincerely ask.

 

[Daniel]

@Runningman

My belief is rooted in Scripture and has been a central tenet of orthodox Christianity since the early church.

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman

My belief is rooted in Scripture and has been a central tenet of orthodox Christianity since the early church.

Your belief regarding the trinity is not rooted in Scripture. Can you find even one reference to God being a trinity in the entire Bible?

 

[Daniel]

From the beginning of creation in Genesis to the end of times in Revelation, God refers to Himself as "us" or "our" and thus describes the doctrine of the Trinity. The word trinity comes from "tri" meaning three and "unity" meaning one. God is three distinct individuals - God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - in one true God.

2 Corinthians 13:14​

14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 10:30​

“I and the Father are one.” – John 10:30

John 17:21​

“That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” – John 17:21

 

[Runningman]

From the beginning of creation in Genesis to the end of times in Revelation, God refers to Himself as "us" or "our" and thus describes the doctrine of the Trinity. The word trinity comes from "tri" meaning three and "unity" meaning one. God is three distinct individuals - God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - in one true God.

2 Corinthians 13:14​

John 10:30​

John 17:21​

God never refers to Himself as an us, a they, or them nor did anyone else. Notice how you couldn't post any verses to support your claims; it's because you can't. This tells me you have completely ignored the advice I gave you about actually reading the Bible for yourself.

Please show us where God is referred to as a they, them, or us anywhere in the entire Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

Whoever receives the apostles receives Jesus and therefore receives the Father. Jesus taught that there is a connected chain, so to speak, so that by extension the Father can be received by receiving the apostles.

John 13
20Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever receives the one I send receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives the One who sent Me.”

So the way people see the Father in Jesus was in the way Jesus represented the Father, much like how Moses did in Exodus 7:1, the angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:2-6, and believers in general do per 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 and Colossians 3:10. Yet no one is God just because they represent God.

Represent is a good word for this. It's not me when I speak by way of the spirit of Christ. It's the spirit of Christ speaking. Thus, I'm an ambassador for Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:20...

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,...
- King James version (1611)

 

[Peterlag]

What I think about the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, and especially of the Incarnation—a doctrine which has played an immense part in the history of religion, and still does so: a doctrine which has drawn to itself the passionate enthusiasm and devotion of millions of Christian hearts. I think this doctrine should be our chief theme.

We are to try to understand what it means, and to consider as deeply as we can whether it is true or untrue, well knowing that, since truth is simply God’s own thought, the truth regarding any doctrine, whether confirming or destroying it, must be the best and holiest for us to hold.

So lets continual to weigh this doctrine, so widely and earnestly held, in the balance, desiring only to draw as near as may be to the actual truth of God, which must be the best and holiest for the mind of man to hold.

I personaly hold to "The Deity of Christ." I think is a foundational doctrine in Christian theology, affirming that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. My belief is rooted in Scripture and has been a central tenet of orthodox Christianity since the early church.

This doctrine asserts that Jesus possesses the same divine nature as God the Father, making Him co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity does not come from Scripture. It comes from the doctrine of devils that the churches teach (and in most cases it's the first thing they teach) and then they begin to look for Scripture that supports such a concept. They do this by taking the verses out of context, or not understanding how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation.

There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the Trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the Trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it.

And there's the spinning and twisting from the trinitarians who can't come up with one verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Trinitarians who can't come up with one verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Trinitarians who have to make up their own words that are not in the Bible. Words like Trinity, Deity, and Incarnated.

If any of this nonsense was true and since it's so important and a huge subject to Christianity and is necessary for salvation like many teach. Then it would have been taught by someone somewhere. And it is not.

 

[Runningman]

Represent is a good word for this. It's not me when I speak by way of the spirit of Christ. It's the spirit of Christ speaking. Thus, I'm an ambassador for Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:20...

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,...
- King James version (1611)

Amen and we aren't Christ just because we are his ambassadors and he is an ambassador for God. Trinitarians have a really sneaky way of ignoring the meaning of words and and language to come to strange conclusions and they do it with everything. Jesus as God's Son, chosen messenger, prophet, who He made Lord and Christ, high priest, and mediator is not himself God but they say he is. The Bible may as well be screaming the Jesus isn't actually God Himself, but only if we could make people hear who have so tightly closed their ears.