The Trinity and the Incarnation

[Runningman]

That would be another false Christ since Jesus Christ is not in discussion forums right now. But there are false Christ trying to persuade FreeInChrist and others like me away from Jesus Christ.

Since so many people here are just repeating the words of Jesus Christ and his teachings, and you reject most of them, then if Jesus did it himself it is reasonable to conclude your approach would be similar.

Jesus distinguished himself from God - John 17:3
Jesus admitted dependence on the Father - John 5:19
Jesus admitted the Father is greater than him - John 14:28
Jesus had limited knowledge - Mark 13:32
Jesus prayed to God - Matthew 26:39
Jesus said his teachings weren't his own - John 7:16
Jesus spoke of God as his God - John 20:17
Jesus said the Father sent him - John 8:42
Jesus confessed ignorance about his own mission - Matthew 24:36
Jesus submitted to the Father's will - Luke 22:42
Peter referred to Jesus as a man approved by God - Acts 2:22
Jesus acknowledged his authority was given - Matthew 28:18
Paul foresaw a future in which Jesus is eternally subordinate to God - 1 Corinthians 15:28

As far as I can tell, you all reject every single last one of these foundational truths.

 

[mikesw]

Do you follow Christ's teaching about a kingdom being appointed to him?

Luke 22
29And I appoint to you a kingdom, as My Father appointed to Me,

I'm not quite sure what Jesus had done here -- perhaps assigning the Twelve to judge the twelve tribes.

 

[mikesw]

Since so many people here are just repeating the words of Jesus Christ and his teachings, and you reject most of them, then if Jesus did it himself it is reasonable to conclude your approach would be similar.

Jesus distinguished himself from God - John 17:3
Jesus admitted dependence on the Father - John 5:19
Jesus admitted the Father is greater than him - John 14:28
Jesus had limited knowledge - Mark 13:32
Jesus prayed to God - Matthew 26:39
Jesus said his teachings weren't his own - John 7:16
Jesus spoke of God as his God - John 20:17
Jesus said the Father sent him - John 8:42
Jesus confessed ignorance about his own mission - Matthew 24:36
Jesus submitted to the Father's will - Luke 22:42
Peter referred to Jesus as a man approved by God - Acts 2:22
Jesus acknowledged his authority was given - Matthew 28:18
Paul foresaw a future in which Jesus is eternally subordinate to God - 1 Corinthians 15:28

As far as I can tell, you all reject every single last one of these foundational truths.

You just use the verses to lie since you do not balance anything with the passages showing Jesus' divinity in the Godhead. You confirm one aspect, namely his humanity, while denying the fullness of who he is. These points are mostly pretty basic and inherent to Jesus having incarnated as a man and therefore speaking and encountering things from that situation.
You reject the essence of God that allows this to happen as well as the power and ability of God to intervene in the world.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not quite sure what Jesus had done here -- perhaps assigning the Twelve to judge the twelve tribes.

Yes, and did you see anything else about Jesus being appointed the same kingdom as they were appointed? Daniel 7 is still there.

Daniel 7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[Runningman]

You just use the verses to lie since you do not balance anything with the passages showing Jesus' divinity in the Godhead. You confirm one aspect, namely his humanity, while denying the fullness of who he is. These points are mostly pretty basic and inherent to Jesus having incarnated as a man and therefore speaking and encountering things from that situation.
You reject the essence of God that allows this to happen as well as the power and ability of God to intervene in the world.

You have just proven my point by utterly rejecting over a dozen verses that prove Jesus isn't God.

 

[mikesw]

Yes, and did you see anything else about Jesus being appointed the same kingdom as they were appointed? Daniel 7 is still there.

Daniel 7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Have you ever heard where God expands on what he shared before?
You do not know how to argue against the divinity of Christ. That is good it undermines the effect of your persistence.

Another note is that kings can be over sub-domains.

 

[mikesw]

You have just proven my point by utterly rejecting over a dozen verses that prove Jesus isn't God.

Funny how you extrapolate false ideas from the texts and assume that people will recognize or accept the same extrapolations. you then try to use your extrapolated ideas (whatever those may be) to deny the passages showing the divinity of Christ. That is just bad debate technique.

 

[Runningman]

Have you ever heard where God expands on what he shared before?
You do not know how to argue against the divinity of Christ. That is good it undermines the effect of your persistence.

Another note is that kings can be over sub-domains.

You seem to be finally recognizing that there is a hierarchy between God and Jesus according to the Bible.

God exalted Jesus as Prince.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

 

[mikesw]

You seem to be finally recognizing that there is a hierarchy between God and Jesus according to the Bible.

God exalted Jesus as Prince.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

So you really think that Christ being the divine Son within the Godhead is going to be rejected as being Prince and Savior. You might remember that because of the incarnation the general population first knew his only in his humanity. Indeed it makes sense to speak of him being Prince and Savior. So you trivialize the divinity of Christ to suit your doctrinal presumptions.

 

[Runningman]

So you really think that Christ being the divine Son within the Godhead is going to be rejected as being Prince and Savior. You might remember that because of the incarnation the general population first knew his only in his humanity. Indeed it makes sense to speak of him being Prince and Savior. So you trivialize the divinity of Christ to suit your doctrinal presumptions.

I am saying that the Bible tells a different story about Jesus than the one you do. That's why I am always showing you things about God and the various statuses He gave to Jesus. Your theory about Jesus being God isn't compatible with Scripture. Why do you never match what the Bible says? It never even mentions Jesus being in "the Godhead." So for Sola Scriptura folks like myself you're just going to draw eternal arguments.

 

[mikesw]

I am saying that the Bible tells a different story about Jesus than the one you do. That's why I am always showing you things about God and the various statuses He gave to Jesus. Your theory about Jesus being God isn't compatible with Scripture. Why do you never match what the Bible says? It never even mentions Jesus being in "the Godhead." So for Sola Scriptura folks like myself you're just going to draw eternal arguments.

The problem it does not match is that you are reading the scripture totally off and denying the divinity passages and the pre-existence ones. If you had made any true argument, I would have respected that.
Rose is that you say God is not compatible with Scripture. oh well.

 

[Peterlag]

Do you have a plastic Jesus on the dashboard?

I keep nothing on my Mercedes dashboard.

 

[Peterlag]

@Administrator... @civic

I am so very close to saying it.... WAIT.... I'll DM him .

Done.....

All is well now View attachment 2517

I don't read your DM's because I have you on ignore.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't read your DM's because I have you on ignore.

@Peterlag

Πατέρα μου Θεέ θα θριαμβεύσει ὑμεῖς ἐκ τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ διαβόλου πάντοτε διότι ο πατέρας σας δεν ακολουθεί την αλήθεια.

Tis a shame that he will not see or read this as I am on ignore.

This is a statement of truth, truly stated....

 

[Daniel]

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

We just need to believe Jesus is who He said He is, His identity 'God with us". Before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God’s Son:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9:6

When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy:
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel "God with us" Matthew 1:23

This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" Matthew 16:13

The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15).

Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" Matthew 16:16

Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church.

 

[Runningman]

The problem it does not match is that you are reading the scripture totally off and denying the divinity passages and the pre-existence ones. If you had made any true argument, I would have respected that.
Rose is that you say God is not compatible with Scripture. oh well.

No I am reading the Scriptures exactly for what it says. I know God is a singular person since in Hebrew when someone is called a He then that's one person. They never even attempted to represent God as a they or them because they didn't believe in a trinity. The trinity is a fake god. Guaranteed.

 

[Runningman]

We just need to believe Jesus is who He said He is, His identity 'God with us". Before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God’s Son:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9:6

When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy:
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel "God with us" Matthew 1:23

This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" Matthew 16:13

The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15).

Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" Matthew 16:16

Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church.

Do you believe that Jesus is how he and others represented him?

Jesus distinguished himself from God - John 17:3
Jesus admitted dependence on the Father - John 5:19
Jesus admitted the Father is greater than him - John 14:28
Jesus had limited knowledge - Mark 13:32
Jesus prayed to God - Matthew 26:39
Jesus said his teachings weren't his own - John 7:16
Jesus spoke of God as his God - John 20:17
Jesus said the Father sent him - John 8:42
Jesus confessed ignorance about his own mission - Matthew 24:36
Jesus submitted to the Father's will - Luke 22:42
Peter referred to Jesus as a man approved by God - Acts 2:22
Jesus acknowledged his authority was given - Matthew 28:18
Paul foresaw a future in which Jesus is eternally subordinate to God - 1 Corinthians 15:28

 

[Runningman]

The problem it does not match is that you are reading the scripture totally off and denying the divinity passages and the pre-existence ones.

Here's your opportunity Mike. Show even one verse where Jesus is clearly pre-existing before his birth. I want to see something from the Old Testament. Don't make any sneaky arguments about Rocks, or a Word, or an angel. Show me clearly where Jesus can be clearly identified. I will give you another chance to make it right if you can. If you can't do it, then you have simply lost your case. That's how this works. If you can't prove Jesus pre-existed this time, I will only become even more emboldened and persistent.

 

[civic]

In the Greek, the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ are two distinct persons. Here's the correct version.

Titus 2
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

nope they are one person with 2 titles. next fallacy

in Titus 2:13 you are up a creek without a paddle since the appearing and coming always refers to the Son in the N.T. and never the Father.

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.


τοῦ is the same.

ἡμῶν is the same.

καὶ is the same.

Σωτῆρος is the same.

Ἰησοῦ is the same.

Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if Unitarians wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise they are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1and 1:11.



And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father


epiphanea

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13
Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ‎tou ‎‎megalou ‎‎Theou ‎‎kai ‎‎sooteeros ‎‎Ieesou ‎‎Christou‎. This is the necessary meaning of the one article with ‎Theou ‎and ‎sooteeros ‎just as in 2 Peter 1:1,11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read ‎Christou ‎‎Ieesou‎.


Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Conclusion : This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .

Case closed for the Unitarian camp ! Its impossible for any unitarian to win this debate. They must turn a blind eye to all of these scriptures and hold onto their false doctrine concerning Christ and deny His Deity.


hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

nope they are one person with 2 titles. next fallacy

in Titus 2:13 you are up a creek without a paddle since the appearing and coming always refers to the Son in the N.T. and never the Father.

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.


τοῦ is the same.

ἡμῶν is the same.

καὶ is the same.

Σωτῆρος is the same.

Ἰησοῦ is the same.

Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if Unitarians wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise they are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1and 1:11.



And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father


epiphanea

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13
Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ‎tou ‎‎megalou ‎‎Theou ‎‎kai ‎‎sooteeros ‎‎Ieesou ‎‎Christou‎. This is the necessary meaning of the one article with ‎Theou ‎and ‎sooteeros ‎just as in 2 Peter 1:1,11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read ‎Christou ‎‎Ieesou‎.


Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Conclusion : This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .

Case closed for the Unitarian camp ! Its impossible for any unitarian to win this debate. They must turn a blind eye to all of these scriptures and hold onto their false doctrine concerning Christ and deny His Deity.


hope this helps !!!

So you better open that case right back up because your argument just lost all of its steam.

Jesus doesn't know when he returns according to Matthew 24:36,37 so it would be nonsense to say that God doesn't know when He returns, but your argument necessitates this is what your conclusion would be.

Next, God and Jesus appear distinctly, not as the same person, but as one bringing the other.

Θεὸς (Theos) ἄξει (axei) σὺν (syn) αὐτῷ (autō) - "God will bring with Jesus..." is written in such a way as to be a verb in the active voice, performing an action on Jesus being the subject and possessive. In other words, Jesus will receive an action from God that he will not perform himself.

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

Pivoting back to Titus 2:13, now fully understanding that Jesus is not the Great God who is appearing, but rather the Great God and our Savior Jesus are two distinct persons.

Also drop your granville-sharp "rule" arguments. Those are not rules in English grammar nor are they taught to anyone in school. Nor were they rules in Greek grammar. The granville-sharp "rule" was not invented until the late 19th century and early Bibles before that period didn't contain it. Hence, the KJV clearly and grammatically states Jesus and God aren't the same person in the Greek of Titus 2:13.