Peterlag
Active Member
Lying? You want to talk about lying?
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Haha. Jews were dealing with the Two Powers In Heaven due to passages like Gen 15:1-5 where the Angel of the Lord then was recognized as Yahweh directly. This happens multiple times. How would anyone be a unitarian except that God be revealed even as Two Powers before the claim of unitarians? The unitarian has to have scripture to deny before becoming a unitarian
Runningman
Active Member
The angel of YHWH is never described as being YHWH. Angel's are YHWH's messenger. They receive message from YHWH and go out and deliver the message. Does that make sense? A good verse to clear it up for you is in Zechariah where it's clear the angel of YHWH is not YHWH since they speak to other another.
Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
deny. deny. deny. always a wonderful argument. This does not have to be obvious in every mention of the Angel of the Lord. You just love to pick the ones that you think make your point instead of obviously rejecting your view.
That is the problem with the unitarian arguments. You show something obviously contradicting the unitarian view and they just bring up something they are comfortable with
Runningman
Active Member
To be clear, I am comfortable with all of the verses you share, but the reason I brought up Zechariah is because I am hoping you'll see you are misunderstanding that one of God's created angels is not God. Do you believe God's angels are Lord God Almighty?
I believe that when the Angel of the Lord is recognized as Yahweh that the Angel of the Lord is Yahweh. It is not like that is the only evidence of the Triune God. But we see of the Two Powers in Heaven, that even Jews were investigating the curiosity of these passages.
Runningman
Active Member
Errr, that's a difficult theological trap you stepped in. Now you need to somehow explained how a creation is the Creator. I wouldn't want to have the job of doing that, actually I would distance myself from it.
You do not want the job at all of proving your view. I know you kind of try, but you are unwilling to defend a unitarian heresy properly.
Like mentioned before. Just take some books on the Triune God and provide sufficient counter arguments to the testimony about the Triune God in scripture. Otherwise, what are you even trying to accomplish?
Runningman
Active Member
I can easily prove my view. One being a messenger implies that they aren't the same one who sent them. Someone isn't their own messenger in any sane and rational world the rest of us live in. This is intuitive to normal people and requires a lot of indoctrination and teaching to come to such nonsensical conclusions, especially when there is example of the messenger and the sender speaking to one another. It's not a very convincing argument to tell me to abandon common sense just to see things your way.
Believe
Active Member
You can't go wrong with the Holy Spirit guiding you thru the Bible. He will guide all the way home!
amazing grace
Active Member
Jews would this: The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself. (Kid 41b)
AGENCY, LAW OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
so what! That is not the dilemma addressed in the Two Powers in Heaven controversy. Also, you are going to Jewish sources who diverged from the message of Christ.Jews would this: The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself. (Kid 41b)AGENCY, LAW OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.www.jewishencyclopedia.com
But there can be Jewish studies that are more interested in the searching out the past instead of whatever views are popular.
amazing grace
Active Member
The Jewish Law of Agency from the Jewish Encyclopedia is an explanation how the one being sent to act on behalf of another---- is considered as the sender himself . . . therefore, the Angel of the LORD sent on behalf of the LORD acts and is addressed as the LORD.
Many Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God:
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. [John 2:23]; And many more believed because of his own word; [John 4:41]; As he spake these words, many believed on him. [John 8:30]; And many believed on him there. [John 10:42] (also John 11:45, 12:11, Acts 4:4 etc.) Most of those who did not believe were the Pharisees and chief priest, the religious leaders of that day BUT . . . Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. [John 12:42,43]
You repeat a useless point about Jewish agency. Like I said Judaism rejected Jesus.
Duh.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Quote me.
What I said was true. You're not willing to change because you're committed to your lie.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
BTW.... God has many names. Even among the Jews.
@amazing grace
I'm not going to dig into this thread to see what you've said. Speak plainly. What is your position?
Do you witness to the Majesty and Superiority of God Incarnate. Jesus Christ? One with the Father and the Son?
I can tell you. There is no other that can say "When you've see me, You've seen the Father."
You can't say such without lying. @Peterlag can't say such without lying.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Are you student of Cyrus Adler? If not, then stop speaking for him. You don't represent Cyrus Adler.
amazing grace
Active Member
What is my position? I believe God, the Father of Jesus Christ is the only true God and Jesus is His human Son whom he anointed as His Christ, aka Messiah.
I agree, when one saw Jesus, one saw the Father because Jesus came to make known, declare the Father which he did perfectly.
amazing grace
Active Member
A person can quote information from a source without being a student of that person. If I quoted a reference from Webster's dictionary would you ask me if I was a student of Noah Webster?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You missed something in what I asked.
I'll ask it differently.
1. Are you perfectly representing the Father yourself?
2. Are you equal in rank and value to the Son?
If you're going to talk about Jesus Christ, I'm going to talk about you. I am going to compare you to Him. Now don't run away. All you Unitarians are the same.
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