Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[amazing grace]

Why do you think the Father hears you when you're bypassing His Son? You seem to think they're different. Right? One is more important than the other... right? That is what Unitarianism requires you to believe.

I believe I said: I pray to the Father in Jesus' name......that's not to say that I don't talk to Jesus from time to time.
I get my direction from Jesus: Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name..... [Matthew 6:9]
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son......If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:13,14]......... so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. [John 15:16b]
I am not required to believe anything NOT in scripture.

You can't go to the Father by.....bypassing the Son.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way. You're not the way. I'm not the way. He is the ONLY way. Do you believe this?

I haven't bypassed the Son.

 

[amazing grace]

Same manner......

Did you say "I wasn't talking to you". What is that exactly, love and affection? Did the angels sing to you when you said it?

Yes. I'm being sarcastic. Sarcasm is good. It reveals the absurdity of someone's thoughts.

Did I say "I wasn't talking to you" --- I don't recall those exact words but I know in one post I said "I was responding to civic" (#559) and I may have said I was responding to Darby at one point. It was a general statement.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe I said: I pray to the Father in Jesus' name......that's not to say that I don't talk to Jesus from time to time.
I get my direction from Jesus: Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name..... [Matthew 6:9]
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son......If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:13,14]......... so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. [John 15:16b]
I am not required to believe anything NOT in scripture.

I read it the first time you said. I just read it again. No need to repeat yourself. That is a tactic you're using. Nothing more. I know how to read. I know what you believe. I've known it for decades. Stop pretending I don't understand you. I do.

You're ignoring what I said. YOU believe the Father is more important than the Son.

Going to the Father while you're pretending you honor His Son by "using His name" is rather silly.

Jesus dealt with this Himself. I know because I can read and think for myself.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

What comes out of you mouth is what defiles you.

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

People use the name of Jesus all the time with giving any honor to that name. Honoring Christ is more than just using his name.

Notice Jesus is appealing to HIMSELF? Did you notice that?

I haven't bypassed the Son.

You haven't? Does God save or does man save. Did Jesus save you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did I say "I wasn't talking to you" --- I don't recall those exact words but I know in one post I said "I was responding to civic" (#559) and I may have said I was responding to Darby at one point. It was a general statement.

Okay. Lets say that is true. What is the difference? You're pretending there is a difference. I don't see a difference in meaning. None. Zero.

 

[amazing grace]

You need to add a few more verses to your small collection about the Resurrection.....

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Sure it is. It denies the Innate power of Jesus Christ. Notice the appeal to HIS OWN POWER. I have THE POWER.

The phrase "This commandment I've received of my Father" is a reference to the Unity. Notice. He didn't say he received the power. Pay attention to what you read.

Jesus had the power, the authority to take it up again -- given to him by his Father.

None of those verses I posted were heretical.

If I find clear and concise verses where Jesus raised himself from the dead, such as the verses which say God raised him from the dead - then I will add it to my list.

 

[amazing grace]

I read it the first time you said. I just read it again. No need to repeat yourself. That is a tactic you're using. Nothing more. I know how to read. I know what you believe. I've known it for decades. Stop pretending I don't understand you. I do.

As long as you respond in a manner that seems to indicate you haven't read what I have written or you are ignoring what I have written, I will repeat myself to make myself clear.

You're ignoring what I said. YOU believe the Father is more important than the Son.

Going to the Father while you're pretending you honor His Son by "using His name" is rather silly.
Jesus dealt with this Himself. I know because I can read and think for myself.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

What comes out of you mouth is what defiles you.

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

People use the name of Jesus all the time with giving any honor to that name. Honoring Christ is more than just using his name.

Notice Jesus is appealing to HIMSELF? Did you notice that?

“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
[Mark 9:37; John 13:20]

Context: Pharisees and scribes : “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.”
Jesus : “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?........But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

You haven't? Does God save or does man save. Did Jesus save you?

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us......[Rom. 5:7,8]
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe........and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he (God) might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [Rom. 3:22, 24-26]
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— .....For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [Eph. 2:4,5,8]

Man does not save ----- man is saved by God in and through Jesus Christ-----no one comes to the Father except through me, i.e. the Son.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus had the power, the authority to take it up again -- given to him by his Father.

None of those verses I posted were heretical.

If I find clear and concise verses where Jesus raised himself from the dead, such as the verses which say God raised him from the dead - then I will add it to my list.

I posted it. I rightly recognize that Jesus had the power. The innate, intrinsic power.

You ignored that I said this.

Here. One more time.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So show me.....where it says..... that the Father gave Jesus the power. Go for it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

As long as you respond in a manner that seems to indicate you haven't read what I have written or you are ignoring what I have written, I will repeat myself to make myself clear.

That is your delusion/tactic. Nothing more.

“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
[Mark 9:37; John 13:20]

Context: Pharisees and scribes : “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.”
Jesus : “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?........But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us......[Rom. 5:7,8]
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe........and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he (God) might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [Rom. 3:22, 24-26]
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— .....For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [Eph. 2:4,5,8]

Man does not save ----- man is saved by God in and through Jesus Christ-----no one comes to the Father except through me, i.e. the Son.

Funny that you would say that God does the saving when the Father is ONLY the gardener.

This isn't going very well for you. You've abandoned Jesus Christ for lesser men.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The "vine" sustains you. You're not saved without the vine.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You do not speak the same things the apostles spoke. You refuse to give Jesus Christ the honor due Him.

 

[amazing grace]

That I agree with. However, you said you didn't.

No idea.....?????

Yeah. Just a "plan". So what did Abraham actually see?

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.....Doesn't say he saw Jesus.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore........ (The city that has foundations whose designer and builder is God ---- a looking forward to the Lord's day.) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back..[Hebrews 11:8-12;17-19] ..... It's all here and it stems from Genesis 22.

Does God save or man?

God saves through his Son.

I don't believe you really believe this. You say this out of "one corner of your mouth" and something else "out of the other corner of your mouth".

It is nothing more than Double speak. You can't have BOTH. You must choose.

In these statements ----- What is it that I must choose? And yes, I am repeating what I said because I want to know what it is that you are considering double talk?

I believe that Jesus made known the Father and fully reflected his Father's character as the only Son of the Father - that Father being the only true God.​

Yep, like Father like Son - And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me."​

I must choose what?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No idea.....?????

You've already forgot what you said? You said you speak for yourself. Earlier, you said you speak for someone else. Which is it?

I have repeatedly asked to speak to your boss. The persons that you report to.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.....Doesn't say he saw Jesus.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore........ (The city that has foundations whose designer and builder is God ---- a looking forward to the Lord's day.) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back..[Hebrews 11:8-12;17-19] ..... It's all here and it stems from Genesis 22.

Abraham applied these words to Isaac. Are you saying that Abraham saw Isaac? I'm glad you agree that sight is required. That is what it says. "SAW". So be clear. Don't try to weasel out of this "problem" you've created.

God saves through his Son.

In what manner? If I tell you about your issue, and you change, do I save you? Or were you saved through me? I want specifics.

In these statements ----- What is it that I must choose? And yes, I am repeating what I said because I want to know what it is that you are considering double talk?

I believe that Jesus made known the Father and fully reflected his Father's character as the only Son of the Father - that Father being the only true God.​

Yep, like Father like Son - And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me."​

I must choose what?

You don't even have access to the Father except through the Son. You can't access the Father at all. This is a one way street. You must pass through "the way" Jesus Christ.

The way you're describing this, If I tell you about God, and lead you to God..., then I represent God just like Jesus did. Thusly, I can do the exact same things that Jesus did and you must treat me just like you treat Jesus.

You're not creating a distinction through Jesus Christ. You are actually creating a "WAY" yourself to claim the same rights.

 

[amazing grace]

That is your delusion/tactic. Nothing more.

Honestly, I have no tactic, no scheme, no deliberate hidden agenda behind what I post whether you believe me or not.

Funny that you would say that God does the saving when the Father is ONLY the gardener.

This isn't going very well for you. You've abandoned Jesus Christ for lesser men.

WHERE?

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The "vine" sustains you. You're not saved without the vine.

Yes, Jesus is the vine, God the Father is the cultivates the ground.....if the branches do not bear fruit God cuts it off and every branch that bears fruit God prunes it so that it may bring forth more fruit.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You do not speak the same things the apostles spoke. You refuse to give Jesus Christ the honor due Him.

Yes, Paul laid the foundation and another builds thereon and we must take care how we build upon that foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

Where did I speak anything in opposition to the apostles? You made the accusation - show me.

Is it your opinion that because I don't see Jesus as God but as the Son of God, the Messiah - I am refusing to give Jesus the honor due him?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Honestly, I have no tactic, no scheme, no deliberate hidden agenda behind what I post whether you believe me or not.

It is natural. Most people do it. I'm not treating YOU any different than how I'd treat anyone else. That is moral issue with me. I treat everyone the same. Or at least try to at a very fundamental level. If you ever see me acting otherwise, call me on it.

WHERE?

The people you are listening to have replaced the relationship you had with Jesus Christ. You once rightfully honored Him. You can't honor Him properly by holding the belief you NOW hold.

Are you different now than when you were a Trinitarian. You know how you've changed.

Yes, Jesus is the vine, God the Father is the cultivates the ground.....if the branches do not bear fruit God cuts it off and every branch that bears fruit God prunes it so that it may bring forth more fruit.

Please pay attention to what you're dealing with. A gardener isn't the one providing life. The vine is. Acknowledge this. Your position denies this. I said many other things and you're selectively responding to only what you want to respond to.

Paul details how he watered. How they planted. It was God that gave the increase.

You have no life without the vine. It is the vine that gives increase. Jesus even said "Without me, you can do nothing".....
Do you remember those words as a former Trinitarian?

Is it your opinion that because I don't see Jesus as God but as the Son of God, the Messiah - I am refusing to give Jesus the honor due him?

I'm going to let you catch up with my responses to you. I'm growing frustrated with the things you're ignoring that I said.

All Honor and Glory is due to Jesus... right? When I'm praising Jesus, I'm not honoring a mere man. I can't honor man. Yet, you insist that Jesus is only a man.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

You've already forgot what you said? You said you speak for yourself. Earlier, you said you speak for someone else. Which is it?

I would have to go back and see the context in which I said that I speak for someone else. I remember saying I speak for myself... what this has to do with anything - go figure.

I have repeatedly asked to speak to your boss. The persons that you report to.

I don't 'report' to anyone.

Abraham applied these words to Isaac. Are you saying that Abraham saw Isaac? I'm glad you agree that sight is required. That is what it says. "SAW". So be clear. Don't try to weasel out of this "problem" you've created.

No, I did not say that Abraham saw Isaac? Not at all.
Abraham SAW....... BY FAITH my day, i.e. the Lord's day (Hebrews 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. the coming Kingdom....the Lord's day

In what manner? If I tell you about your issue, and you change, do I save you? Or were you saved through me? I want specifics.

You don't even have access to the Father except through the Son. You can't access the Father at all. This is a one way street. You must pass through "the way" Jesus Christ.

The way you're describing this, If I tell you about God, and lead you to God..., then I represent God just like Jesus did. Thusly, I can do the exact same things that Jesus did and you must treat me just like you treat Jesus.

You're not creating a distinction through Jesus Christ. You are actually creating a "WAY" yourself to claim the same rights.

I honestly have no idea what you are getting at......

I have already posted verses that should explain in what manner. [Rom. 5:7,8; Rom. 3:22, 24-26; Eph. 2:4,5,8] and many more.
I can receive reproof or correction from someone concerning doctrine - I can change my mind but that does not save me.

Man does not save ----- man is saved by God in and through Jesus Christ-----no one comes to the Father except through me, i.e. the Son.

 

[amazing grace]

It is natural. Most people do it. I'm not treating YOU any different than how I'd treat anyone else. That is moral issue with me. I treat everyone the same. Or at least try to at a very fundamental level. If you ever see me acting otherwise, call me on it.

It may be natural for some people but no, I am just responding from a place of honesty and integrity to the best of my ability.
I don't care how you are treating me - all it does is show me what kind of person you are.

The people you are listening to have replaced the relationship you had with Jesus Christ. You once rightfully honored Him. You can't honor Him properly by holding the belief you NOW hold.

Are you different now than when you were a Trinitarian. You know how you've changed.

I have a better relationship with my heavenly Father and with my brother, Jesus Christ than I have EVER had.
Am I any different? I am more clear headed, no more confusion and reading the scriptures have become clearer and easier to understand.

Please pay attention to what you're dealing with. A gardener isn't the one providing life. The vine is. Acknowledge this. Your position denies this. I said many other things and you're selectively responding to only what you want to respond to.

Paul details how he watered. How they planted. It was God that gave the increase.

You have no life without the vine. It is the vine that gives increase. Jesus even said "Without me, you can do nothing".....
Do you remember those words as a former Trinitarian?

So you are combining the context in 1 Cor. 3 with the gospel of John 15?
1 Cor. 3 - Paul is talking about people who are quarrelling amongst themselves 'well Paul taught me but Apollos taught me' --- of what importance is it of who taught who - we are just servants through whom you believed - I, Paul, planted; Apollos watered, but it is God that gives the increase. We are fellow workers and we should take care on who we build upon the foundation, that is Jesus Christ.
John 15 Jesus is the vine and God the Father is the pruner and the one that cultivates the vines. Every branch which abides in Jesus that does not bear fruit God takes away and every branch that bears fruit, God prunes so it may bear more fruit. We are to abide in the vine because we cannot bear fruit apart from the vine = we cannot do anything apart from Jesus.

I'm going to let you catch up with my responses to you. I'm growing frustrated with the things you're ignoring that I said.

All Honor and Glory is due to Jesus... right? When I'm praising Jesus, I'm not honoring a mere man. I can't honor man. Yet, you insist that Jesus is only a man.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Not ONLY a man, Not a MERE man but an perfect obedient man, a virgin born man, a sinless man, a lamb without blemish or spot, the Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Messiah.