Stop saying silly things.

[praise_yeshua]

I don't see much difference or any difference between what you both are saying.

Agreed. He doesn't know it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And God's Foreknowledge knows who is going to be there BEFORE anyone is born.

It is an indeterminate choice that was made in Christ alone. That is why you nor I are mentioned.

 

[TomL]

I don't see much difference or any difference between what you both are saying. Can someone enlighten me?

I am unsure as to Johann purpose in posting

I posted to show Red Bakers statements contain errors

 

[Johann]

I am unsure as to Johann purpose in posting

I posted to show Red Bakers statements contain errors

Your denial that believers are in Christ? Or did I read you wrong?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here is Wallace's answer to Corporate Election in 2004.

Notice that he makes a circumstantial case with an appeal to grammar only once and not from Eph 2. He largely ignores any sense of what I've stated here.

Corporate Election | Bible.org

A good friend who is also a pastor wrote to me recently about the nature of election. He wondered if it were possible for Christians to be chosen in Christ—that is, for Christians not to be elected individually, but only as a corporate entity. The idea was that Christ is the chosen one and if a...

bible.org

 

[TomL]

Incorrect-

Word ἐν: This is a Greek preposition, often translated as "in," "on," "at," "by," or "with," depending on the context.

Modifies ἐξελέξατο (verb): The verb ἐξελέξατο means "he chose" or "he selected." When saying that ἐν modifies ἐξελέξατο, it means that the preposition ἐν is providing additional information about the action described by ἐξελέξατο.

In Eph 1:4, word 2: This specifies the location in the verse where ἐν is found. Eph 1:4 in Greek starts with the words "καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ" which translates to "just as He chose us in Him."

ἐξελέξατο is outside of the current clausal unit: This means that the verb ἐξελέξατο ("he chose") belongs to a different clause or sentence than the immediate one being discussed, yet it is relevant to the interpretation of ἐν in this context.

To put it all together, this phrase is explaining that in Ephesians 1:4, the preposition ἐν (the second word in the verse) is modifying or providing context to the verb ἐξελέξατο ("he chose"). Although ἐξελέξατο is in a different clause from where ἐν appears, the preposition still connects to the action of choosing. Essentially, this analysis helps to clarify the relationship between the words in the Greek text to understand better the meaning and structure of the verse. In simpler terms, it indicates that "in Him" (ἐν αὐτῷ) relates back to the action of God choosing us, even though these words are part of different segments of the sentence.


he phrase "we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" is a key part of Ephesians 1:4. Here's a breakdown of the verse in its entirety to provide context:

Ephesians 1:4 (NIV):
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

In Greek:
"καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ."

Breakdown:
ἐξελέξατο (exelexato): "he chose"
ἡμᾶς (hēmas): "us"
ἐν (en): "in"
αὐτῷ (autō): "Him" (referring to Christ)
πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (pro katabolēs kosmou): "before the foundation of the world"
εἶναι (einai): "to be"
ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους (hēmas hagious kai amōmous): "us holy and blameless"
κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ (katenōpion autou): "in His sight"
ἐν ἀγάπῃ (en agapē): "in love"

Interpretation:
This verse is stating that God chose us "in Him" (meaning in Christ) before the foundation of the world. The purpose of this choice was so that we might be holy and blameless in His sight. This emphasizes the pre-temporal (before time) aspect of God's plan and election, highlighting the idea that this divine choice and purpose were established before the creation of the world.

In essence, it means that God's selection of believers to be "in Christ" was part of His eternal plan, intended to result in their sanctification and blamelessness through their relationship with Him.


he concept of believers being "in Christ Jesus" is a central theme in the New Testament. Here are several key scriptures that highlight this idea:

1. 2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

This verse emphasizes the transformative nature of being in Christ, signifying a complete renewal and new identity.
2. Romans 8:1
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

This assures believers of their secure status and freedom from condemnation through their union with Christ.
3. Ephesians 1:3-4
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

These verses affirm that all spiritual blessings and divine election are found in Christ.
4. Galatians 3:26-28
"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This passage highlights the unity and identity of believers in Christ, transcending all social and cultural distinctions.
5. Philippians 3:8-9
"What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Paul expresses his desire to be found in Christ, valuing this relationship above all else and identifying righteousness as coming through faith in Christ.
6. Ephesians 2:10
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This verse explains that believers are created in Christ for a purpose, which includes doing good works as part of God's plan.
7. Colossians 3:3-4
"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

This passage underscores the believer's union with Christ, both in the present life and in the future glory.
8. John 15:4-5
"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

Jesus uses the metaphor of the vine and branches to illustrate the essential and life-giving connection between Him and His followers.
These verses collectively present a robust picture of what it means for believers to be "in Christ," emphasizing a profound spiritual union that affects identity, purpose, and eternal destiny.

Please @TomL don't bother to respond-you are no scholar and you are in denial of the above-

Um its rather puzzling why you say wrong

There is no indirect object in the verse and I never denied

Word ἐν: This is a Greek preposition, often translated as "in," "on," "at," "by," or "with," depending on the context.

Modifies ἐξελέξατο (verb): The verb ἐξελέξατο means "he chose" or "he selected." When saying that ἐν modifies ἐξελέξατο, it means that the preposition ἐν is providing additional information about the action described by ἐξελέξατο.

in fact my own source notes

EPHESIANS 1:4

καθὼς (Root: ως + κατα, LN: 89.34; conjunction, adverbial, causal)
as, just as
Contained in: Subordinate Clause
Syntactic Force: Comparative subordinate clause

Words Modified by καθὼς
• subordinate-conjunctive relation: The word καθὼς modifies εὐλογήσας (verb) in Eph 1:3, word 12 (εὐλογήσας is outside of the current clausal unit).

ἐξελέξατο (Root: λεγω, LN: 30.86; verb, aorist, middle, indicative, third person, singular)
to choose, to select
Contained in: Subordinate Clause
Syntactic Force: Finite verb

Words That Modify ἐξελέξατο
• prepositional relation: The word ἐξελέξατο is modified by ἐν (preposition) in Eph 1:4, word 4 (ἐν is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐξελέξατο is modified by πρὸ (preposition) in Eph 1:4, word 6 (πρὸ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• verb-to-verb relation: The word ἐξελέξατο is modified by εἶναι (verb) in Eph 1:4, word 9 (εἶναι is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐξελέξατο is modified by κατενώπιον (preposition) in Eph 1:4, word 14 (κατενώπιον is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐξελέξατο is modified by ἐν (preposition) in Eph 1:4, word 16 (ἐν is outside of the current clausal unit).



Albert L. Lukaszewski, Mark Dubis, and J. Ted Blakley, The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Expansions and Annotations (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2011), Eph 1:4.

 

[TomL]

Your denial that believers are in Christ? Or did I read you wrong?

You read me wrong

 

[Johann]

You read me wrong

So believers are in Christ-correct?

 

[TomL]

So believers are in Christ-correct?

Of course

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Behold]

It is an indeterminate choice that was made in Christ alone. That is why you nor I are mentioned.

God our Father, is a God who demands JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT.

God demands a fair balance and never allows regarding His Behavior, an unfair or 'one sided" end result.

God our Father says that an "unequal balance" is an "Abomination"...

So, for God to pre-qualify some SINNERS before they are born, and not do this for all Sinners...., is an unfair balance and an IN-Justice committed against ALL those who are not given this same estimation by God.

God will never do this.. He will never choose some, to be saved and avoid others, as there is no justification for doing this, when in fact.. .'All have sinned, and there is NONE Righteous, no not one".

So, to choose SOME as worthy to be chosen from an entirety that are "ALL have sinned, and NONE are Righteous"... is not something that God can do and this be a just balance or a righteous decision.

 

[civic]

So believers are in Christ-correct?

Of course unbelievers are not in Christ

 

[Behold]

So believers are in Christ-correct?

Once you are BORN AGAIN, then you are become a "new CREATiON .= IN Christ"..

 

[Johann]

Of course

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So when did this happen?

-- even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

I am trying to see if we are going in the same direction.

 

[Johann]

Of course unbelievers are not in Christ

Are you tired? Bored?

 

[civic]

Once you are BORN AGAIN, then you are become a "new CREATiON .= IN Christ"..

Yep not before

 

[civic]

Are you tired? Bored?

No just making a point

 

[TomL]

So when did this happen?

-- even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

I am trying to see if we are going in the same direction.

God's plan was determined before the foundation of the earth

God determined believers would be holy and blameless before him in love

Men come into Christ when they believe in time

Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

 

[Behold]

So when did this happen?

-- even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,

That's "foreknowledge"..

See, when God "Knew" all this, there was no EARTH, no JESUS and no Cross.

So, as God is LOOKING FORWARD to what will be, .. He understands that all who are "IN Christ' are those He Foreknew, would believe in Jesus.

That's not pre-determined......its FORE-KNOWN....(Foreknowledge).

 

[Johann]

God's plan was determined before the foundation of the earth

God determined believers would be holy and blameless before him in love

Men come into Christ when they believe in time

Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Well said-this is how I understand it.

 

[civic]

God's plan was determined before the foundation of the earth

God determined believers would be holy and blameless before him in love

Men come into Christ when they believe in time

Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Roman’s 16:7 should end the discussion