To be or not to be? In this case, there is no question that "to be" should not have been inserted in Eph 1:4 by TRT.Yep
Stop saying silly things.
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yes, I inserted it to illustrate that "us" is the direct object and "in Him" is the indirect object.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Before you accuse me, perhaps you should quote what I said:
I'm not quoting scripture here. I did quote that scripture, but there is no "to be" in my scripture quote. If I was trying to change scripture, I think I'm clever enough to change the scripture quote. That's not what I was doing. You should be ashamed of yourself for making seem so.
I'm not quoting scripture here. I did quote that scripture, but there is no "to be" in my scripture quote. If I was trying to change scripture, I think I'm clever enough to change the scripture quote. That's not what I was doing. You should be ashamed of yourself for making seem so.
With or without "to be", "us" and "in Him" are still direct and indirect objects, as you say.
What you're doing is to change the tense of the choosing in Him from aorist to strictly future.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here's my quote of scripture. No "to be" in there. Sorry to spoil your "gotcha" moment.
If you did read what I posted, you would have seen that I did quote you. Here it is again:
There you go.
First you say that "I'm not quoting scripture here" and then in the same breath you're saying "I did quote that scripture," Which is it?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Great, you quote the words you think you "got me" on. Here's the whole quote.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Both. See post #85 and #45.
The important thing is that we should all be very careful in quoting what the verse actually says and not willy nilly bend the verse in the interest of illustrating a point, whatever that point would be.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Good. Then you agree with the video's exegesis of that passage. Glad to hear it.
It was a clear distortion of the text
Sorry no "him" is not an indirect object but the object of the preposition
the object of a preposition is never an indirect object
It’s easy to get indirect objects confused with the objects of prepositions, especially when they both answer the question “who or what is receiving the direct object?” https://www.grammarly.com/blog/indirect-object/
Nope, no indirect object. just a direct object and an object of a preposition
What is this
I understood you to be asking for an explanation of my denial that the verse has men chosen to be in Christ
it does not, as the portion of the verse I showed demonstrates that
Leaving what out?
I posted all that was sufficient to show the verse does not speak of men chosen to be in Christ
Again For what?
I took your request to be a justification of my claim that the verse does not speak of men chosen to be in Christ
I did that
Wrongly, as the diagram I posted shows
Believers are chosen to be holy and blameless
there is nothing about men being unconditionally chosen to be in Christ.
Further, him is not an indirect object in the phrase in him but the object of the preposition in
Nope no indirect object, It is a prepositional phrase and him is the object of the preposition
ἐν (Root: εν, LN: 89.119; preposition)
in
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of location
Words Modified by ἐν
• prepositional relation: The word ἐν modifies ἐξελέξατο (verb) in Eph 1:4, word 2 (ἐξελέξατο is outside of the current clausal unit).
αὐτῷ (Root: αυτος, LN: 92.11; pronoun, personal, third person, dative, singular, masculine)
he
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Prepositional object
Albert L. Lukaszewski, Mark Dubis, and J. Ted Blakley, The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Expansions and Annotations (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2011), Eph 1:4.
Johann
Well-known member
Incorrect-
Word ἐν: This is a Greek preposition, often translated as "in," "on," "at," "by," or "with," depending on the context.
Modifies ἐξελέξατο (verb): The verb ἐξελέξατο means "he chose" or "he selected." When saying that ἐν modifies ἐξελέξατο, it means that the preposition ἐν is providing additional information about the action described by ἐξελέξατο.
In Eph 1:4, word 2: This specifies the location in the verse where ἐν is found. Eph 1:4 in Greek starts with the words "καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ" which translates to "just as He chose us in Him."
ἐξελέξατο is outside of the current clausal unit: This means that the verb ἐξελέξατο ("he chose") belongs to a different clause or sentence than the immediate one being discussed, yet it is relevant to the interpretation of ἐν in this context.
To put it all together, this phrase is explaining that in Ephesians 1:4, the preposition ἐν (the second word in the verse) is modifying or providing context to the verb ἐξελέξατο ("he chose"). Although ἐξελέξατο is in a different clause from where ἐν appears, the preposition still connects to the action of choosing. Essentially, this analysis helps to clarify the relationship between the words in the Greek text to understand better the meaning and structure of the verse. In simpler terms, it indicates that "in Him" (ἐν αὐτῷ) relates back to the action of God choosing us, even though these words are part of different segments of the sentence.
he phrase "we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" is a key part of Ephesians 1:4. Here's a breakdown of the verse in its entirety to provide context:
Ephesians 1:4 (NIV):
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
In Greek:
"καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ."
Breakdown:
ἐξελέξατο (exelexato): "he chose"
ἡμᾶς (hēmas): "us"
ἐν (en): "in"
αὐτῷ (autō): "Him" (referring to Christ)
πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (pro katabolēs kosmou): "before the foundation of the world"
εἶναι (einai): "to be"
ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους (hēmas hagious kai amōmous): "us holy and blameless"
κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ (katenōpion autou): "in His sight"
ἐν ἀγάπῃ (en agapē): "in love"
Interpretation:
This verse is stating that God chose us "in Him" (meaning in Christ) before the foundation of the world. The purpose of this choice was so that we might be holy and blameless in His sight. This emphasizes the pre-temporal (before time) aspect of God's plan and election, highlighting the idea that this divine choice and purpose were established before the creation of the world.
In essence, it means that God's selection of believers to be "in Christ" was part of His eternal plan, intended to result in their sanctification and blamelessness through their relationship with Him.
he concept of believers being "in Christ Jesus" is a central theme in the New Testament. Here are several key scriptures that highlight this idea:
1. 2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
This verse emphasizes the transformative nature of being in Christ, signifying a complete renewal and new identity.
2. Romans 8:1
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
This assures believers of their secure status and freedom from condemnation through their union with Christ.
3. Ephesians 1:3-4
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
These verses affirm that all spiritual blessings and divine election are found in Christ.
4. Galatians 3:26-28
"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
This passage highlights the unity and identity of believers in Christ, transcending all social and cultural distinctions.
5. Philippians 3:8-9
"What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."
Paul expresses his desire to be found in Christ, valuing this relationship above all else and identifying righteousness as coming through faith in Christ.
6. Ephesians 2:10
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
This verse explains that believers are created in Christ for a purpose, which includes doing good works as part of God's plan.
7. Colossians 3:3-4
"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."
This passage underscores the believer's union with Christ, both in the present life and in the future glory.
8. John 15:4-5
"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
Jesus uses the metaphor of the vine and branches to illustrate the essential and life-giving connection between Him and His followers.
These verses collectively present a robust picture of what it means for believers to be "in Christ," emphasizing a profound spiritual union that affects identity, purpose, and eternal destiny.
Please @TomL don't bother to respond-you are no scholar and you are in denial of the above-
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Behold
Well-known member
yes, = According to God's FOREKnowledge., but not according to pre-destined.
What's that mean?
It means that God knew who is going to Trust in Christ OF THEMSELVES, by Faith, before any of us were born.
HE KNOWS IT.......= "Foreknowledge"....and that is not to pre-destine it......Its to KNOW IT before it happens.. "FORE-Knowledge" or knowledge of everything BEFORE it happens NEXT.
So, the reason the verse says "in Christ" is because to be there is proof you are born again....
And God's Foreknowledge knows who is going to be there BEFORE anyone is born.
I don't see much difference or any difference between what you both are saying. Can someone enlighten me?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Where did you get these references?
You can not ignore the audience. Paul isn't writing to Jesus. As such, the demands of direct and indirect objects are irrelevant to the meaning of the verse.
The choice has an hierarchy that can't be denied. Us in Him. Christ is above all. First in all things.
The Calvinist would have you believe that THEY are the FOUNDATION instead of Jesus Christ.
In fact, read just a few verses ahead.....
Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Paul also demands that there is no other foundation that begins anything relative to the choices of God. It all begins with Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The Calvinist always starts with himself.
@Johann
Tell me sir. How many "grammatical arguments are even used in the Scriptures themselves? I know of "hand full". Any of you can find someone that agrees with you on most anything. Birds of a feather flock together.
Even Daniel Wallace waffles at teaching of Corporate Election and he is probably the best NT linguist currently alive today.
The Scriptures define themselves. There is no choice with the first choice of God in Himself. Jesus Christ. Conformity demands it.
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