Rockson
Well-known member
Who said he doesn't?
Favoritism in Unconditional Election
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
This was between me and civic @Rockson
Faith is a dorean?
Why do you mix Greek and English?
You wouldn't be playing word games would you?
Even your statement
Faith is not a work that we produce on our own?
What does that mean?
Produced apart from grace?
Produced apart from revelation?
neither would describe my view
Something God effectually infuses/causes in man?
That is the Calvinist view
That is TRT's view
I would reject that understanding
I do not see that you have supported it.
I agree faith is a response to God's grace
The word the gospel revelation it is grace
Looks like you have some homework to to-not being facetious-and you have the tools-right?
And no-I am not a Calvinist-that is a derogatory label since I am a follower of Christ Jesus.
Salvation as a Gift Received Through Faith, Not Human Effort or Merit: This should be clear @TomL
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This verse emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, received through faith, and not achieved through human effort or merit. It underscores the idea that faith is the means by which we receive the gift of salvation, highlighting the grace of God as the source of our salvation.
Yet you deny that faith is a gift-quoting Barnes
Faith Not Meritorious:
Romans 4:4-5 (NIV): "Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." This passage contrasts works and faith, emphasizing that salvation is not earned through works but received by faith. Faith is not meritorious in itself; rather, it is the means by which God credits righteousness to the believer.
Salvation Received by Faith, Not Earned:
Romans 3:22 (NIV): "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile." Here, Paul emphasizes that righteousness is given as a gift through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Salvation is not something that can be earned through human effort or merit; it is received by faith in Christ alone.
Faith as a Response to God's Grace:
Ephesians 2:8 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." This verse underscores that both grace and faith are gifts from God.
Where you and I disagree-that faith is a dorean
Faith is not a work that we produce on our own; it is a response to the grace of God. We believe in Jesus Christ because God has graciously revealed Himself to us and drawn us to Him.
These biblical passages affirm that salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit. Faith itself is not meritorious but is a response to God's grace, which enables us to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
your reaction--
Faith is not a work that we produce on our own?
What does that mean? You have Barnes-why don't you ask him?
Produced apart from grace? Nowhere in my post-3 strikes-you're out! Thanks for confirming what I have already "picked up"
Produced apart from revelation? Nowhere in my post
neither would describe my view No-obviously not-next?
Something God effectually infuses/causes in man? Nowhere is that in my post
That is the Calvinist view-No it ain't
That is TRT's view Nothing wrong with the TRT
I would reject that understanding Of course you would
I do not see that you have supported it. Oh, I did
*******************************************
Have you read my post? Obviously not-right?
Um i did not call you a calvinist
Faith is a dorean?
Why do you mix Greek and English?
You wouldn't be playing word games would you?
Even your statement
Faith is not a work that we produce on our own?
What does that mean?
Produced apart from grace?
Produced apart from revelation?
neither would describe my view
Something God effectually infuses/causes in man?
That is the Calvinist view
That is TRT's view
I would reject that understanding
I do not see that you have supported it.
hello
Not just Barnes and I produced arguments to support my view you still have not addressed
if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
and verse 9 makes no sense if faith is the gift
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
no argues one must produce works to obtain faith
That is what I stated
I stated the same thing my self
Barnes did not write those words you did
You really do not know what you picked up
it is a question of what you mean by produced on our own
it was a question asking you what you are denying
and denied by me again the question is what do you mean by produced on our own
Only you can explain your meaning
again why do you refuse to define what you are saying
That is the Calvinist view
The view TRT advocates for
Glad you are not supporting it
Oh yes it is
Article 14 Canons of Dort states, “Faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent—the act of believing—from man’s choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.”129
David L. Allen;Steve W Lemke;; Steve W Lemke. Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique (Kindle Locations 867-869). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
seems you lack knowledge regarding what calvinism entails
you really have no idea what you are saying
above you stated that idea was nowhere in your post and that that is not the calvinist view
now you claim you support it
You are getting desperate-understandably-the caps are all out
In an exegetical, non-Calvinistic perspective, the idea of God "effectually causing or infusing faith" might not align with the interpretation of certain biblical passages. Instead, the emphasis might be placed on God's role in enabling faith or inviting individuals to respond in faith rather than imposing it upon them.
One perspective could be that God, through His grace and revelation, provides the means for individuals to come to faith but respects their freedom to choose whether to respond in faith or not. This view might find support in passages such as:
John 1:12-13 (NIV): "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." This passage suggests that becoming children of God is not solely a result of human decision or will but involves a divine element.
Romans 10:17 (NIV): "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." This verse highlights the role of hearing the message of Christ in producing faith, implying that faith arises as a response to the proclamation of the gospel rather than being irresistibly infused.
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Here, God's desire for all to come to repentance suggests a willingness to allow individuals the freedom to respond to His invitation rather than coercively imposing faith upon them.
From this non-Calvinistic perspective, while God may work through His Spirit and Word to draw people to Himself and enable them to respond in faith, faith itself is understood as a response of the individual's heart rather than something irresistibly caused or infused by God.
So calm down @TomL and take a deep breath-and allow the Holy Spirit to take over, so much better.
Wheres your joy in the Lord Jesus Christ?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes] by the [spoken word, rhēmatos ῥήματος] of Christ/God.
I read this as "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when Christ/God says so." I'm willing to be wrong about that, but I think it's significant that it is rhematos and not logos.
Let's see brother-let's break this down, you and me and see where this is going--
Romans 10:17 (LEB): "Consequently, faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing [comes] through the word of Christ."
Subject: "faith"
Syntactic Force: Subject of the sentence, representing the concept or quality being discussed.
Meaning of Morphology:
"faith" refers to the belief, trust, or confidence in God or Christ.
Verb: "comes"
Syntactic Force: Main verb of the sentence, expressing an action or state.
Meaning of Morphology:
"comes" indicates the process or action of faith being obtained or acquired.
Prepositional Phrase: "by hearing"
Syntactic Force: This phrase modifies the verb "comes," specifying the means or manner by which faith is acquired.
Meaning of Morphology:
"by" indicates the instrument or means by which something is accomplished.
"hearing" refers to the act of perceiving or receiving auditory information, such as through listening.
Conjunction: "and"
Syntactic Force: Connects the two clauses of the sentence, indicating a relationship between them.
Meaning of Morphology:
"and" serves as a coordinating conjunction, joining the clauses about faith and hearing.
Prepositional Phrase: "through the word of Christ"
Syntactic Force: This phrase modifies the verb "comes," specifying another means or manner by which faith is acquired.
Meaning of Morphology:
"through" indicates the medium or channel through which something occurs.
"the word of Christ" refers to the message or communication originating from Christ, specifically His teachings, commands, or gospel.
So @The Rogue Tomato --if we put this all together-- the verse emphasizes that faith is acquired through the process of hearing, particularly through the proclamation or communication of the message of Christ. The syntactic structure highlights the relationship between faith and hearing, indicating that hearing the word of Christ is instrumental in producing or nurturing faith within individuals.
OK?--let's observe this with the morphologies-I would advice you gently to get a book on the basics of Greek grammar-there is much time--02.39 AM here and with this I must go to bed.
"Faith" (noun):
Morphological Analysis: "Faith" is a noun, derived from the Greek word "pistis (πίστις)."
Meaning: "Pistis" refers to belief, trust, confidence, or faithfulness. In the context of Romans 10:17, it represents the belief or trust in God or Christ that is essential for salvation.
"Comes" (verb):
Morphological Analysis: "Comes" is a verb, translated from the Greek word "ἔρχεται (erchetai)."
Meaning: "Erchetai" is the third person singular present active indicative form of the verb "erchomai (ἔρχομαι)," which means "to come" or "to go." In this context, it denotes the action of faith being acquired or obtained through the means specified in the subsequent phrases.
"By Hearing" (prepositional phrase):
Morphological Analysis: "By hearing" is a prepositional phrase, composed of the preposition "by" and the noun "hearing."
Meaning: "By" indicates the instrument or means by which something is accomplished, while "hearing" refers to the act of perceiving or receiving auditory information, particularly through listening. Together, this phrase signifies that faith is acquired or produced through the act of listening to the message being communicated.
"Through the Word of Christ" (prepositional phrase):
Morphological Analysis: "Through the word of Christ" is another prepositional phrase, consisting of the preposition "through," the article "the," the noun "word," the genitive case of "Christ."
Meaning: "Through" indicates the medium or channel through which something occurs, while "the word of Christ" refers to the message or communication originating from Christ Himself. It encompasses His teachings, commands, or gospel proclamation. Thus, this phrase emphasizes that faith is acquired or nurtured through the reception of Christ's message.
By understanding the morphologies of the words used in Romans 10:17, you gain insight into how faith is acquired or strengthened through the process of hearing and receiving the message of Christ.
Would you agree?
Let me know and then I will sign off
Johann.
In the Koine Greek NT, ρημα/ρηματι is Greek for the spoken word. Hearing comes the spoken word of Christ which is recorded in the word of God. So listening to/reading the word of God opens up our hearing to what Christ proclaimed and that's how we can build our faith.
CC: @Johann
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You're adding that part. It's not in the text.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I agree. His comments are relative to the timing of how he sees himself as already being judged to have believed. He refuses to commit to foreknowledge to establish his belief.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
And @civic wasn't preventing anything.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He does not believe in the necessity of the Gospel to hearing.
So then how do you hear Christ's words if not through the word of God? Through voices in your head?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No he isn't. If I prove that logos and rhema are used interchangeably throughout the Scriptures you will admit you are wrong? Have you ever heard of the "rhema" word movement? You are making the same argument here.
I bet those voices are in English.So then how do you hear Christ's words if not through the word of God? Through voices in your head?
Rather you hallucinate and imagine what is not there
You made the silly comment about asking Barnes what you mean. And you showed you do not understand the Calvinist position
i
Effectually caused or infused faith is the Calvinist view
That is not the Calvinist view. Not what TRT believes
This is strange
You spoke approvingly of TRT's view yet what you post is contrary to it
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Exactly. Or saving those who happened to make the right choice.
So you believe in favoritism?
The elect are favored before they are even born
Romans 10:17 (NIV) — 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans 10:8–18 (NIV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
Context shows faith arises from the message concerning Christ
Rhema appears here
Romans 10:8
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:18
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009).
I see nothing particularly significant in its use
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