Favoritism in Unconditional Election

praise_yeshua said:
Not true. You still owe a debt. You are indebted. Your living sacrifice is a reasonable SERVICE.

You are misread the reference.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

No matter how you slice it.... faith is never a work. However, your indebtedness to the work of Christ requires YOUR living sacrifice.
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If faith is never a work, then the verse "This is the work of God" cannot be changed to mean "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (faith)".
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
If faith is never a work, then the verse "This is the work of God" cannot be changed to mean "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (faith)".
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I answered you after your comment. Can you answer what I said?

BTW. If you don't know what you believe about foreknowledge, then that is fine. It might be a "work in progress".
 
TomL said:
sorry but again you substitute your understanding for the word of God

by failing to address a passage in its context and equivocating on word meaning

In john, work is anything you do

In Paul work speaks to what you have earned

He is clear that faith on the part of the believer does not earn salvation.
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I don't think so-that @The Rogue Tomato is substituting anything with his understanding

John's Usage of "Work":

In the Gospel of John, the term "work" often refers to actions or deeds performed by individuals, including both physical actions and spiritual activities. For example:
John 6:27 (NIV): "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
John 9:4 (NIV): "As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work."
In John's gospel, "work" is often associated with the manifestation of faith and obedience to God's commands, as seen in Jesus' exhortation to do the works of the Father (John 9:4) or to believe in the one whom God has sent (John 6:29).
Paul's Usage of "Work":

In the writings of Paul, particularly in the context of salvation and justification, the term "work" often refers to human efforts to earn righteousness or merit favor with God through adherence to the law or performance of religious rituals. For example:
Romans 3:28 (NIV): "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
In Paul's writings, "work" is often contrasted with faith and grace, emphasizing that salvation is not achieved through human effort or merit but is received as a gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
While there is certainly overlap in the usage of the term "work" between John and Paul, the emphasis and context in which it is used differ. In John's gospel, "work" often refers to the manifestation of faith and obedience, while in Paul's writings, it often refers to human efforts to earn righteousness apart from faith in Christ. Both perspectives contribute to a holistic understanding of the Christian life and the relationship between faith, works, and salvation.
 
Johann said:
I don't think so-that @The Rogue Tomato is substituting anything with his understanding

John's Usage of "Work":

In the Gospel of John, the term "work" often refers to actions or deeds performed by individuals, including both physical actions and spiritual activities. For example:
John 6:27 (NIV): "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
John 9:4 (NIV): "As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work."
In John's gospel, "work" is often associated with the manifestation of faith and obedience to God's commands, as seen in Jesus' exhortation to do the works of the Father (John 9:4) or to believe in the one whom God has sent (John 6:29).
Paul's Usage of "Work":

In the writings of Paul, particularly in the context of salvation and justification, the term "work" often refers to human efforts to earn righteousness or merit favor with God through adherence to the law or performance of religious rituals. For example:
Romans 3:28 (NIV): "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
In Paul's writings, "work" is often contrasted with faith and grace, emphasizing that salvation is not achieved through human effort or merit but is received as a gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
While there is certainly overlap in the usage of the term "work" between John and Paul, the emphasis and context in which it is used differ. In John's gospel, "work" often refers to the manifestation of faith and obedience, while in Paul's writings, it often refers to human efforts to earn righteousness apart from faith in Christ. Both perspectives contribute to a holistic understanding of the Christian life and the relationship between faith, works, and salvation.
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You are entitled to your opinion but what you state appears to agree with what i stated and contrary to your claims regarding TRT

Paul clearly rejects the idea of faith as a condition is at variance with grace

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

and clearly denies faith is a means of earning merit or debt

TRT is taking the meaning from john and trying to impose it upon Paul

that is an error
 
TomL said:
You are entitled to your opinion

But Paul clearly rejects the idea of faith as a condition is at variance with grace

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

and clearly denies faith is a means of earning merit or debt
Click to expand...
That passage doesn't tell you where faith comes from. And if faith is never a work, then the verse "This is the work of God" cannot be changed to mean "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (faith)".
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Yes, it is a work of God, not a work required by God.
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We do not apply those words the same. Which makes a meaningful difference. Belief is still required by God.

You do realize that these people at Capernaum didn't believe Christ. Right?

Christ told them exactly what they need to believe about Him. It wasn't a mystery.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
That passage doesn't tell you where faith comes from. And if faith is never a work, then the verse "This is the work of God" cannot be changed to mean "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (faith)".
Click to expand...
Sorry there you go conflating John's use of the word with Paul's use of the word

Assuming they use it in the same manner

they do not and as such you have made an error of equivocation
 
TomL said:
You are entitled to your opinion but what you state appears to agree with what i stated and contrary to your claims regarding TRT

Paul clearly rejects the idea of faith as a condition is at variance with grace

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

and clearly denies faith is a means of earning merit or debt

TRT is taking the meaning from john and trying to impose it upon Paul

that is an error
Click to expand...
No-it's not.

Paul's teaching on faith and grace emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit. In Romans 4:4-5, Paul contrasts the concepts of works and faith, highlighting that if salvation were based on works, it would be a matter of debt, not grace. However, salvation is not earned but received by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith itself is not a work but a response to God's grace.

In Romans 4:9-16, Paul further illustrates this point by using the example of Abraham, the father of the faith. Abraham's righteousness was not based on his observance of the law or his works but on his faith in God. Paul emphasizes that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness while he was still uncircumcised, demonstrating that salvation is not contingent upon adherence to religious rituals or legalistic requirements.

Furthermore, Paul argues that the promise of salvation extends to both Jews and Gentiles, as illustrated by Abraham's status as the father of all who believe, whether circumcised or uncircumcised. This underscores the universality of salvation by faith and the exclusion of human works as a means of earning righteousness.

Therefore, Paul's teaching aligns with the idea that faith is not a condition imposed by God but a response to His grace. Salvation is a gift freely given to all who believe in Jesus Christ, apart from works or adherence to the law. This understanding underscores the central role of grace in the Christian message, emphasizing that salvation is wholly dependent on God's unmerited favor and not on human merit.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I'll answer in the third person. All people who are saved were once sinners. John 3 identifies those who never have and never will be believing ones as having been judged already.

he who is not believing (permanent continual state of being) hath been judged already (a present state of being judged in the past), because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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There's no great revelation in the fact that he who continously disbelieves has been judged. There's no great hidden message here. It's just basic logic that even a youngster can understand.
 
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synergy said:
There's no great revelation in the fact that he continously disbelieves has been judged. There's no great hidden message here. It's just basic logic that even a youngster can understand.
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He can't place the timing. He shouldn't even have an opinion till he places the event.
 
Johann said:
No-it's not.

Paul's teaching on faith and grace emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit. In Romans 4:4-5, Paul contrasts the concepts of works and faith, highlighting that if salvation were based on works, it would be a matter of debt, not grace. However, salvation is not earned but received by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith itself is not a work but a response to God's grace.

In Romans 4:9-16, Paul further illustrates this point by using the example of Abraham, the father of the faith. Abraham's righteousness was not based on his observance of the law or his works but on his faith in God. Paul emphasizes that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness while he was still uncircumcised, demonstrating that salvation is not contingent upon adherence to religious rituals or legalistic requirements.

Furthermore, Paul argues that the promise of salvation extends to both Jews and Gentiles, as illustrated by Abraham's status as the father of all who believe, whether circumcised or uncircumcised. This underscores the universality of salvation by faith and the exclusion of human works as a means of earning righteousness.

Therefore, Paul's teaching aligns with the idea that faith is not a condition imposed by God but a response to His grace. Salvation is a gift freely given to all who believe in Jesus Christ, apart from works or adherence to the law. This understanding underscores the central role of grace in the Christian message, emphasizing that salvation is wholly dependent on God's unmerited favor and not on human merit.
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Yeah it is

You cannot assume John and Paul use the word work in the same manner and your own post showed as much

look at your own statements

"salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit"

so it is obvious faith is not meritorious

"However, salvation is not earned but received by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith itself is not a work but a response to God's grace"

again affirming faith is not a work (in Paul) but a response to God's grace.

This is what I have been saying but TRT is trying to claim otherwise
 
TomL said:
Yeah it is

You cannot assume John and Paul use the word work in the same manner and your own post showed as much

look at your own statements

"salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit"

so it is obvious faith is not meritorious

"However, salvation is not earned but received by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith itself is not a work but a response to God's grace"

again affirming faith is not a work (in Paul) but a response to God's grace.

This is what I have been saying but TRT is trying to claim otherwise
Click to expand...
I'm not claiming otherwise. I'm pointing out that the people who believe "This is the work of God" means "this is the work required by God" are mistranslating the text. If faith is the work required by God, then that nullifies grace.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I'm not claiming otherwise. I'm pointing out that the people who believe "This is the work of God" means "this is the work required by God" are mistranslating the text. If faith is the work required by God, then that nullifies grace.
Click to expand...

You've been going in circles because of your demand that faith can be a work. BY definition, It can never be a work.
 
TomL said:
Yeah it is

You cannot assume John and Paul use the word work in the same manner and your own post showed as much

look at your own statements

"salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit"

so it is obvious faith is not meritorious

"However, salvation is not earned but received by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith itself is not a work but a response to God's grace"

again affirming faith is not a work (in Paul) but a response to God's grace.

This is what I have been saying but TRT is trying to claim otherwise
Click to expand...
Salvation as a Gift Received Through Faith, Not Human Effort or Merit: This should be clear @TomL

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This verse emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, received through faith, and not achieved through human effort or merit. It underscores the idea that faith is the means by which we receive the gift of salvation, highlighting the grace of God as the source of our salvation.

Yet you deny that faith is a gift-quoting Barnes

Faith Not Meritorious:

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV): "Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." This passage contrasts works and faith, emphasizing that salvation is not earned through works but received by faith. Faith is not meritorious in itself; rather, it is the means by which God credits righteousness to the believer.
Salvation Received by Faith, Not Earned:

Romans 3:22 (NIV): "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile." Here, Paul emphasizes that righteousness is given as a gift through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Salvation is not something that can be earned through human effort or merit; it is received by faith in Christ alone.

Faith as a Response to God's Grace:

Ephesians 2:8 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." This verse underscores that both grace and faith are gifts from God.

Where you and I disagree-that faith is a dorean


Faith is not a work that we produce on our own; it is a response to the grace of God. We believe in Jesus Christ because God has graciously revealed Himself to us and drawn us to Him.
These biblical passages affirm that salvation is a gift from God received through faith, not through human effort or merit. Faith itself is not meritorious but is a response to God's grace, which enables us to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Other than this we can continue to disagree.
 

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