praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't see any answer here. I'm well aware of these verses.
Can you tell me whether or not you believe God literally forgets our sins or not?
Omniscience????
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I don't see any answer here. I'm well aware of these verses.
Can you tell me whether or not you believe God literally forgets our sins or not?
Generally speaking. God does not determine everything that occurs.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You know I agree with this. However, it is important not to overstate the position by claiming that the future only contains possibilities.
Where God has purposed events, they are as good done. Especially relative the "mind" of God.
I've had this issue with Open Theism for a very long time. There is this desire in Open Theism to "maintain" the illusion of "possibilities" is all that exists.
This is not true. There are events are as certain as God's character is certain.
There is no shame to accept God's undeniable truths of our existence in this world HE placed us in, regardless of who opened the Scriptures which reveal them. We are not in a competition as to who is "right" the most, at least I'm not.
My choices now and future (my own planning within the boundaries of God's natural and supernatural laws) will change many things for me. My plans may be as sure as complete till they're not.
This is more complicated than to just "boil them down" to the absolutes you're establishing in your thoughts.
God takes pleasure in my plans or He does not. He allows me to plan just like He does.
It is part of our experience in being in the likeness of God..... (The God experience).
There will come a day when God WILL change us. This change will NOT be against our wills.......
WE GROAN within ourselves seeking such.... This "travail" will be gone and we shall stand complete where our purpose/plans agree with God's purpose/plans. Such is what God seeks. A place beyond mere "compliance". God seeks agreement from us in all things.
A great point.
Agreeing with God in all things, would bring about "compliance", yes? I mean, isn't "agreement with God" simply the product of believing God? I can't see the future and I may not make it until tomorrow. I can only "Agree" with God right now. I only have power to "Obey His voice" right now. I can hope for a future where "it will be well with me", but only "IF" I follow the instructions before ordained by God that I should walk in them.
In the examples God had written for my admonition, HE shows men the future of those who are "Compliant" from the heart, as well as those who are not.
You make a great point, "Agreeing with God" in all things is something we all can do "right Now". But that would mean "Yielding ourselves" to God as Paul teaches. Or as it is written, "Today, if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Great point.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Thanks. Just want to be clear that I don't see it as being a competition to be right. As we mature, we should find ourselves living what is right in agreement with God. Just making the point.
I believe you are overstating the case. No open theist denies God determined some things
I believe what is written, that there are men who God, in the judgment, will not hold their sins against them. These men will be changed, and as Paul said, "must put on immortality". This man, now like Jesus, will literally have "NO SIN".
I am careful, personally, to consider the Holy scriptures God has written for my admonition, as Paul teaches.
1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them "God was not well pleased": for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things "were our examples", to the intent "we should not lust" after evil things, as they also lusted.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore (Because of these undeniable Truths) let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.
So I too, partook of this same Exodus Spiritually, and I am also on a journey seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness. I couldn't declare to the world that God forgets all my sins, past present and future. I never know when my last "Now" will come, and therefore, as it is written;
2 Pet. 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent "that ye may be found of him in peace", without spot, and blameless.
Clearly both Paul and Peter taught to be careful concerning our behavior, on our journey. I hope God will put my sins away, and forget them, but remember, the old man is to be crucified. So God didn't forget his sins.
It's the "NEW MAN" we put on, that has such hope, in my view.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Tom.... You said that only possibilities exist in the future.
This creates double talk when addressing the issue. You can't deny this. You have a narrative you must maintain. I only care about the truth. That is enough for me. I don't care to drive a doctrinal narrative that is less than adequate.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
As well as I am. However, I can't help but firmly believe that the apostles taught many details that have not survived to our ears.
I agree there are sins that are future for me. I have said this before among those here in this forum. That we are not complete at a fundamental level until we put off our flesh. We agree.
However, this really doesn't change the question. In fact, relative to your position, the entirety of creation already exists. It would seem as if this wouldn't be as problematic for your position.
Good. I can agree that God has a "problem" with forgetfulness relative to those who believe in Omniscience "at face value".
If we define "all knowing" as = all that is capable of being known...... then we can agree on Omniscience.....
Sadly, most people do not believe that Omniscience can accurately be defined as "all that is capable of being of being known".
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I can't know my future, I can only hope for a future. This is why, in my understanding, Jesus qualified many things by saying "IF" we do this, or "IF" you do that, and this is why I posted HIS Words. EVERY self-proclaimed "Christian", no doubt including those "Christians" in Matt. 7:21, "Thought" they were already saved. They "Thought" they were members of the Body of Christ, heirs to the promise, even to the point of saying in the Judgment, when they saw what was coming, and I'll paraphrase, "But Lord, Lord, Don't you know who we are? We are "Christians"! And yet, even though they claimed belief in the Christ, it was disobedience to God that separated them from the Body.
Matt. 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But "he that shall endure" unto the end, "the same" shall be saved.
So yes, God is in my future, and already knows my end. But I don't, instead, I'm told to be diligent, yield myself to God, and hope for the Grace.
1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
I'm not judging you in any way. I just answered the question you asked of me and want to explain how I come to this understanding, out of respect for you and others who may be reading along. It doesn't surprise me in the least, that you have come to the same conclusion, more or less.
It is sad that "many", who come in Christ's name, do not recognize the difference between "all that is capable of being of being known" by humans, and "all that is capable of being of being known" by God.
What a great topic.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Interesting that you said this. Maybe God is with us here in this conversation. I've often referenced this verse in conversations like we are having but there might just be a good reason that I haven't until now.
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
It seems very clear that this verse tells us that God doesn't know the end of man. There are choices that are left up to mankind. God does not know what men will chose relative to His offer and what they will reject.
Thank you!
I still believe there are things that God will not do. God can not lie. God can know what it is to lie..... Himself. As mentioned in Deu 32:20... God can not know what a sinner will do relative to embracing God or not. Though we have an inclination to sin, we also have the living breath of God in our lives that has the potential to do good. The potential to grow beyond our own limitations.
Even Christ was surprised by the faith of some.....
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
If I am to believe these words, then I must accept the fact that God doesn't know everything relative to choice of a mutable individual.
Brother, I have long believed that God rejoices when man gets saved.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
The angels are paying attention to the Father brother........
God rejoices at the sinners getting saved.
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But it is a valid definition
Brother, what understanding would I have if I considered more of God's Words here in Deut. 32?
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee (Christ) thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, "Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this".
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that "they would consider their latter end"!
I can see how a person might be convinced that God doesn't know the end of men who reject Him, if verse 20 was separated from the rest of the Chapter. But when all of God's Words are considered, doesn't it seem as if God knows full well what their end will be?
Jesus says the same thing in Matt. 7. 23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
And yet HE says in the same Chapter;
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and "doeth them not", shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; "and it fell": and great was the fall of it.
I never considered these scriptures as evidence that God doesn't really know the end of men from their beginning. I could be wrong, so I am posting the reason why I came to a different conclusion than you. And either way, it doesn't make any difference to our walk, in my view.
Aren't these two different completely different issues? I agree that there are things God "CAN" do, that HE chooses "NOT" to do. Isn't it true that God "CAN" lie, but chooses not to? And if I, as a human, "Choose" not to Lie, even though I can, isn't that a fruit of Godliness?
I respectfully disagree with this understanding. If verse 20 was isolated from the rest of the Bible, it could be construed as proof that God doesn't know the end from the beginning of men. But when the entire chapter is considered, I don't believe it promotes this doctrine.
But isn't there another "IF" here? Who is the Spirit of God in? Doesn't God knock first, and men choose either to open the door, or not open the door? Those "Christians" in Matt. 7, did not have the Spirit of God in their lives. Paul said they were dead in their trespasses and sins. They didn't believe they were, they didn't know they were, but they were.
Both Paul and David said of these men, there is no Good in them, and this, in my view, because God's Word is not in them.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
So how does a man know if the Word of God dwells in them? 1 John 2: 4-5 tells men how they can know, in my view.
I agree that God rejoices when HE sees the future of repentant, humble men who choose HIM over the religions of this world. But isn't God Greater than the angels, and Greater than the Son?
Mark 13: 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, "but the Father"
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for "ye know not" when the time is. So the Angels don't know the end from the beginning, Jesus, as a man, doesn't know the end from the beginning, but God does, at least according to the Holy scriptures, in my view.
Nevertheless, it is always good to dig in the Scriptures seeking truth. Thanks for sharing your perspective with me.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I believe God said that he would watch to see everything from that point forward to the time their end shall come. Not just what their end shall be but how they got there..... The proverbial "the journey is as important as the end". God is gracious and kind toward those who ultimately meet their "maker" unprepared.
I mention that I had a predictability model. I also believe God can predict, based upon past and current conditions, what any man will become to a certain degree.
I agree with you for the most part. I don't think it affects us to God in most ways but it can flavor our theology to the point that we condemn those that God loves. (Not saying you're doing this). Some do.
You're exactly right. They are different in one important aspect. Character. Which is why I've come to the point in my theology where I see changes affecting God except relative to His immutable Character. God's character never changes. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Other than issues relative to character, God certainly changes relative to mutable things.
There is no reason to take a position that God doesn't change. When a sinner gets saved, God changes His mind about that sinner. He should. God is willing to change His mind about every single sinner. This is true in keeping with God's "GOOD" Character.
Okay. Most do. That is fine.
I believe there is hope for every son and daughter of Adam and Eve up and until they take their final breath upon this earth. I believe God forgives sincere sinners in their last breath in calling out to Him. I believe this because of the thief on the cross witnessed in Luke 23.
I don't believe any GOOD man that comes to feel the "gripe of death" wants anyone to face the damnation of God.
If God is willing to save any person all up until the very moment of death, then regardless of any ideal of fairness or "what about me"..... that comes from the "faithful"..... God forgives everything......
This is preached and taught in the parable of the prodigal son. Even the worst prodigal gets treated equally as a son!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You are asking excellent questions. Reasoned questions. I'm enjoying this. Thank you!
The breath of God that animated the flesh of Adam and Eve (both experienced the direct and divine breath of God from their beginnings) combine in their children to form a "living" soul. This is not the gift we receive in new birth. However, Adam and Eve never had this gift as well.
They had to be "born again" themselves and not just because they sinned. They were incomplete. Innocent, but incomplete. I realize this is probably "new to you"... but I sincerely believe this is true. I believe the proof of such is seen in the God allowing man to sin in his/their (Adam/Eve') own innocence. Even Adam and Eve had to grow. They were not made complete. They were a "work in progress".
These create a logical next question that is a difficult one. A question that I've pondered for a very long time. Is there a "necessity for sin" found in our existence and God's plan/purpose.
I have an answer for this but you'll need to "stick with me" on this...
What value is contained in eternal life? Eternal life isn't something granted or gifted to all of God's creations. Things come and go. The grass of the field.... the consumption of energy......etc....
Christ was purposed to prove Himself to humanity before man was every formed from dust. From weakness man was taken. That takes time. That takes effort. This takes experience within humanity.
Empathy shown forth in weakness is NOT sin. It is uninformed innocence. An establishment of "will" within humanity that is NOT mature. We want what we want.... when we want it.
Just like our own children don't really know what they want, we must also LEARN.... what is best for us. Christ for our profit partook of weakness in flesh to prove to us that he values and loves us. Christ earned our fondest of thoughts and cares for Him. He grants to us Eternal life.
When Christ was dying He begged God to forgive us because we don't know what we're doing..............
Calvinists see this as God playing with us like "puppets"....... Which is absolutely contrary to His own Character.
What this really is..... Is God winning us over to Himself. A "courtship" of "husband and wife" that will culminate in the "Bride of Christ" making herself READY.............
I think you are right for the most part. There is aways going to be a first Adam and a Last Adam in all repentant men of Faith. I think this "progress" as you put it, is evident in God's very creation. A child is born to walk but cannot walk until it falls trying.
Is it necessary for a child to fall, before he can learn to walk? And after he learns, does he continue to fall "on purpose"?
I have an answer for this but you'll need to "stick with me" on this...
What value is contained in eternal life? Eternal life isn't something granted or gifted to all of God's creations. Things come and go. The grass of the field.... the consumption of energy......etc....
Christ was purposed to prove Himself to humanity before man was every formed from dust. From weakness man was taken. That takes time. That takes effort. This takes experience within humanity.
Empathy shown forth in weakness is NOT sin. It is uninformed innocence. An establishment of "will" within humanity that is NOT mature. We want what we want.... when we want it.
Just like our own children don't really know what they want, we must also LEARN.... what is best for us. Christ for our profit partook of weakness in flesh to prove to us that he values and loves us. Christ earned our fondest of thoughts and cares for Him. He grants to us Eternal life.
When Christ was dying He begged God to forgive us because we don't know what we're doing..............
It is important to God, it seems, that humans learn to control themselves, as best they can, while on earth. Can you imagine the chaos or an eternity with no order, or foundation? I agree that there is a vast difference between a man stumbling and falling, and a man who hears God's instruction, then chooses to reject it. This is why I do not partake of this world's "many" religious sects and businesses, "who come in Christ's Name", because they outright reject the Judgments of God. They hear Him, but they do not hearken.
This is different that "Growing in the knowledge of God", in my view.
Jesus asked His Father to forgive these people for what they did to HIM. He didn't ask His Father to forgive them for the lies and commandments of men they taught for doctrines, even after God sent them His Prophets. They didn't know they were killing the Messiah, but they knew they killed innocent men. And without repentance, we all shall surely die.
I agree, this world's religions promote many such falsehoods.
I believe the Bible teaches this as well.
Why is why dynamic omniscience affirms God's omniscience
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Not necessary but inevitable. A child does not have the ability to walk without falling at various stages of their lives.
We ultimately have the same issue when we get older. A elder person can get to where they can not walk without falling. Necessary? No. Inevitable. Yes.
We have the answer for why God has chosen such things.
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
I'll extend thought for a moment......
I've said this before. I personally believe that when God "stooped down" to pick a hand full of ashes/dirt that he took to form Adam, Ole Satan was standing around somewhere in the "shadows" watching. Satan watched as God took the askes of destruction that Satan had caused...... and formed it a body of flesh. Purified by fire, those ashes became "home" to the breath of God in a living soul of man.
Since that time, Satan has hated what God has so lovingly embraced in us.
In Christ brother, we have everything that is opposed to Satan. God has gradually shown Satan what it means to win the minds and hearts of the unwilling. If there is any being that deserves any praise in any of this. It is Jesus Christ. This why I believe what I believe about the Character of God. There is none like Him. One of these days, I'll be able to praise Him without falling. I look forward to that day when all of God's children will raise their voices in unison to praise Jesus Christ.
Repentance is a "two way" street. Man can not meaningfully repent without learning of God. Paul spoke of how even those that claim Christ often "oppose themselves". Christ empathized with man in the Incarnation as He "grew" in knowledge.
I believe Christ in speaking not only of those who killed Him, but all those of all generations that oppose God. We were no different. It amazes me how Calvinists preach total depravity..... yet can not empathize with being total depraved themselves.
Calvinist total depravity is really total inability
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Depravity is the referenced reason for inability. As we grow in knowledge and understanding our inabilities vanish. Knowledge enables. Depravity is used in both Arminianism and Calvinism to establish a lack of innate ability absent Grace when God has Graciously enabled man to innately reason and grow in knowledge. Thusly there is no difference in any mans abilities absent any physical disabilities to learn.
Both of the positions are fundamentally wrong in how they teach the innate qualities of a human descendent of Adam.
