The Bible also never says you become elect by believing. At one point dif you become elect Doug?
Which is nonsense. Preaching the gospel is part of the means of salvation. Gods way of drawing the elect Himself.
John Piper: Born again through faith in the gospel
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Which is nonsense. Preaching the gospel is part of the means of salvation. Gods way of drawing the elect Himself.
@TibiasDad
I'm not allowing you to get off this easy by saying what you're here saying concerning my statement to you, where I said: "the likes of the mentally challenge; heathen where the gospel may have never been preached, those that died before they are able to believe, (no such doctrine as the age of accountability, since we were all accountable in Adam), etc."
God IS and must be just, and the only way this is possible and still allow any anyone born of flesh from Adam's generation to enter into eternal life, is that Jesus Christ MUST had been a surety for them, or else they cannot get a "free pass" that you and others have came up with , or have accepted from others, the way to get some into eternal life, without believing. God is indeed merciful, but "never" at the expense of his righteous justice of punishing sin A.K.A. the sinner that is found without the blood of Jesus Christ being applied to his account ~ and this can only be so, if Jesus was his surety before God's law, if not, then he that sinneth must die, in this case, the lake of fire, which is the second and final death where they shall perish forever. According to such scriptures as John 3:16.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
This precious scriptures is so misused ~ these words by the Saviour are not word of conditions to be born again, but a great declaration of a bible truth taught all through the word of God ~ those that believe, have, (present tense) everlasting life and they shall never perish ~ which means others will who do not believe, who have heard and rejected the message with no love for it, will perish. Faith being the evidence of life, not a condition thereof.
1st John 5:1
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”
Doug, this one verse exposes your faulty understanding, that goes totally against God's testimony of the truth ~ does this concern you? It should greatly bother your conscience before God, unless you have hardened your spirit against the doctrine of unconditional election by grace alone.
The cause of ‘Election’ or ‘Predestination’ is not in the creature elected, but in God’s own Sovereign Will! God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” Just as Christ said in Matthew 11.
The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2nd Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever can, or does believe until God quicken him to life first; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Philippians 1:29 ) believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, no one can escape that conclusion, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for “boasting,” which Scripture emphatically denies: 1st Corinthians 1:31; Ephesians 2:9.
Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people “who have believed through grace” (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed “through grace,” there is absolutely nothing meritorious about “believing,” and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of “a remnant according to the election of grace.” There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.
Doug, you have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have “believed through grace” (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was “of grace” (Rom. 11:5). Why are you fighting against this blessed truth? You will lose this battle for sure.
Good morning Doug,
I'm not allowing you to get off this easy by saying what you're here saying concerning my statement to you, where I said: "the likes of the mentally challenge; heathen where the gospel may have never been preached, those that died before they are able to believe, (no such doctrine as the age of accountability, since we were all accountable in Adam), etc."
God IS and must be just, and the only way this is possible and still allow any anyone born of flesh from Adam's generation to enter into eternal life, is that Jesus Christ MUST had been a surety for them, or else they cannot get a "free pass" that you and others have came up with , or have accepted from others, the way to get some into eternal life, without believing. God is indeed merciful, but "never" at the expense of his righteous justice of punishing sin A.K.A. the sinner that is found without the blood of Jesus Christ being applied to his account ~ and this can only be so, if Jesus was his surety before God's law, if not, then he that sinneth must die, in this case, the lake of fire, which is the second and final death where they shall perish forever. According to such scriptures as John 3:16.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
This precious scriptures is so misused ~ these words by the Saviour are not word of conditions to be born again, but a great declaration of a bible truth taught all through the word of God ~ those that believe, have, (present tense) everlasting life and they shall never perish ~ which means others will who do not believe, who have heard and rejected the message with no love for it, will perish. Faith being the evidence of life, not a condition thereof.
1st John 5:1
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”
I could spend a lot of time here, but we shll be as brief as possible to refute this great error.
Acts 13:48
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”Doug, this one verse exposes your faulty understanding, that goes totally against God's testimony of the truth ~ does this concern you? It should greatly bother your conscience before God, unless you have hardened your spirit against the doctrine of unconditional election by grace alone.
The cause of ‘Election’ or ‘Predestination’ is not in the creature elected, but in God’s own Sovereign Will! God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” Just as Christ said in Matthew 11.
The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2nd Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever can, or does believe until God quicken him to life first; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Philippians 1:29 ) believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, no one can escape that conclusion, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for “boasting,” which Scripture emphatically denies: 1st Corinthians 1:31; Ephesians 2:9.
Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people “who have believed through grace” (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed “through grace,” there is absolutely nothing meritorious about “believing,” and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of “a remnant according to the election of grace.” There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.
Doug, you have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have “believed through grace” (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was “of grace” (Rom. 11:5). Why are you fighting against this blessed truth? You will lose this battle for sure.
I would love to discuss these scriptures with you or any person as far as that goes, since I'm pretty sure you do not understand them based on the context in which we find Romans 10:10-15, when Romans 10:1-5 is never connected with those scriptures which WILL give us light concerning exactly what Paul was saying, you just cannot yank scriptures out of their context and expect to leave with a true biblical understanding of what is being said, it is impossible to come to the knowledge of the truth doing this reckless use of the scriptures, that many practice. Enough said for now.
synergy
Active Member
Read 2 Th 2:13. We are elected onto salvation through sanctification and belief of the truth.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Th 2:13 is not nonsense.
Through, not because of. We're you around in the beginning?
Correct. Your faulty understanding is however.
synergy
Active Member
Your Strawman 1. I never said "because of".
Your strawman 2. I never said I was around then.
Fact: You have no answer for 2 Th 2:13. It causes your faulty presuppositions to crash and burn.
Oh good. Then you do not become elect when you believe.
What does "from the beginning" mean?
Already answered it using tge text itself. It never says you become elect when you believe. That you presuppose and impose it on the text.
@praise_yeshua
So according to your understanding, God created man and waited to see what man would do, and then based on what man would do, elected them BECAUSE some believe. That is exalting man, not God's grace, but man's works. That's not the God the scriptures revealed to us; that's a god you and others have created that does not exist, but only in your corrupt minds, by rejecting the God of the Bible and Him doing all things after the purpose of His will which he purposed within Himself.....by the very fact He created proves this to us ~ He was perfectly happy within Himself without creating anything, he just added to his pleasure by doing so.
Not all men are blessed of God, regardless what you think or say, and if you have a problem with that, then you can take that up with the Lord when you shall stand before him...I want to be there and watch.
That's not foreknowledge based upon the word of God, actually, that's a little on the side of God NOT knowing all things!
So according to your understanding, God created man and waited to see what man would do, and then based on what man would do, elected them BECAUSE some believe. That is exalting man, not God's grace, but man's works. That's not the God the scriptures revealed to us; that's a god you and others have created that does not exist, but only in your corrupt minds, by rejecting the God of the Bible and Him doing all things after the purpose of His will which he purposed within Himself.....by the very fact He created proves this to us ~ He was perfectly happy within Himself without creating anything, he just added to his pleasure by doing so.
Like "you just did" above with your statement? I would never do so!
Well, you are not disagreeing with me, but with Jesus' very own words, and if you are okay with doing so, then you must face the consequences of doing this wicked deed.
Matthew 16:17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”Not all men are blessed of God, regardless what you think or say, and if you have a problem with that, then you can take that up with the Lord when you shall stand before him...I want to be there and watch.
Is that as deep as you can go? Probably so.
God does as He wills, and he does not take counsel from anyone, so I cannot include, or exclude any one. I have no desire to exclude anyone, but do have a desire to be faithful to God's testimony, which you seem you disregard in favor of your own bias agenda.
Men, like Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul and John, if they are in the scriptures then I received their words as a little child would from their parents. Testimony from men like you, I test with the scriptures, if true, then I received, if false then I reject, it is jus that simple.
1 John 4:1
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”Yes, my youngest grandson can tell me that and a lot more!
Well, why do you not try, I'm here, not going anywhere. Start with Matthew 16:13-19. Love to hear your understanding, You bark loud and make a lot of noise, but pretty sure have a very small bite
synergy
Active Member
In typical fashion, you ignore the fact that it's through belief in the truth. Keep telling yourself whatever contradictory falsehoods you want to believe in.
Exactly what it says.
It's in the text that it's through belief in the truth. Ignoring that fact is the only way you can prop up your faulty presuppositions.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So God still knows your sin? You need to reconsider.
Same ole same ole.
No. God chose only ONE. That is Jesus Christ. The only One that has Preeminence. YOU were not chosen before the foundation of the world.
Why do you want to take the place of Jesus Christ?
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I ask that you pay attention. I said that Truth has it's origins in God. ALL Truth.
So that TRUTH that Peter believed was from God. From the revelation of God. Specifically in the very Christ you want to place at the feet of men. It is a statement of Unity. A statement that connects the earthly ministry of God in the Son. Reconsider.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
God isn't on YOUR side. You're claiming privileges ALL men have for yourself.
After all. I know these "Scriptures" you claim....
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Act_17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
That includes you. Just keep remembering that.... You have what exactly that I don't have?
I have no agenda other than the Truth. You're biased. You have an agenda.
Yeah. That happened thousands of years ago. YOU are the descendent of those who rejected the Gospel message. I am too. No one is any different than another. Everything you have you got from some man. Just admit it. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. This gospel you prefer just feeds your ego. Nothing more. It appeals to you nature that resists God. It is not a Gospel of humility and service. You seek to be served. Not the serve.
We can stay right here for now. I know you want to move on.... Not moving with you yet.
1. So what do you have that you didn't get from another man?
2. Why do you glory as if you haven't received if from another man?
3. Paul said very clearly that HE HAD BEGOTTEN those at Corinth. That they didn't have "many fathers".... only one.
So fit these truths into your false narrative and correct your understanding.
@praise_yeshua
Jesus Christ was the HEAD of the body of Christ, you can have one without the other!
Have you never read so much as this:
What is David speaking about? I know, do you?
Sorry, we do not have a new message!
1st John 3:11
“For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.”That statement reveals a lot about your understanding!
Jesus Christ was the HEAD of the body of Christ, you can have one without the other!
Have you never read so much as this:
Psalms 139:16
“Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.”What is David speaking about? I know, do you?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Same ole same ole false doctrine.... I love the Scriptures.
You can? Please do tell how you can have the Church without Jesus Christ?
There is nothing written without Jesus Christ.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
It is amazing to me just how large of an ego you have that you think your position is established BEFORE and without Christ.
Psa 139:16 My unwrought state your eyes beheld and your book all shall be written in a day they will be formed and no one among then.
Oh do tell me how valuable you are to God and how God prefers you before any other. It isn't like I haven't heard this before.
Reminds me of.....
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
Paul wrote a wonderful letter to those at Corinth about the ego and pride of men. So don't run away.... Stay right here and deal with your own....
1. So what do you have that you didn't get from another man?
2. Why do you glory as if you haven't received if from another man?
3. Paul said very clearly that HE HAD BEGOTTEN those at Corinth. That they didn't have "many fathers".... only one.
Would to God that you did "reign" so others could "reign" with you.
Last edited:
TibiasDad
Active Member
People are only called “elect” after believing. John certainly teaches that eternal life is given only to those who are believing; which means, by strong implication, that you become elect by receiving eternal life which is only by first believing.
When I believed, same as you and everyone else who trust in Christ.
If God elects by Sovereign decree, then the methodology is mere detail. They are already irreparably, irresistibly and irrevocably elect.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
The Greek is the word ἐν, which is translated as “through”. ἐν is literally “in”, so 2 Thess 2:13’s “in sanctification of the Spirit” and “by faith in the truth” is describing the means of accomplishment. Thus, the instrumentality of “sanctification of the Spirit” and “faith in the truth” can certainly be “because” they are provided as a means to an end.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
<sigh>
The mood is subjective, which is the mood of potential. God gave his only Son “in order that” (hina) or “so that” whoever is actively believing (present tense, active, participle) might not perish but might have eternal life.
The use of the subjunctive indicates and “if/then” construction of meaning; if one believes, then one is given eternal life and will not perish. The Son was given in order that we who believe might not perish but instead might have everlasting life. Belief is the prerequisite of the potential result.
Note that “might not perish” is an Aorist tense because perishing is a completed action, but “might have” everlasting life is a present tense because everlasting is a continual never ending thing. But, again, both are subjunctive in mood.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων: All who are at this moment in the state of believing
ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς: that Jesus is the Christ
ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται: out of God have already been born and continue to be born of him. γεγέννηται is a perfect tense, indicative, middle voice verb that says that the present tense reality of believing indicates that those who are believing have been and still are born of God. In other words, having been born of God is a prior experience to the present reality of believing.
It is not a cause and effect statement, but a relational correlation of the present reality with a past event and the results thereof. You can’t have one without the other!
Doug
Doug, now you are resorting to trying to use a language you do not know and truly has no support you are so desperately grasping for. You will never instruct God's children seeking for truth, which children for the most part are not among the wise of this world where you are seeking to place yourselves among. You are not speaking in tongues, but are doing so in your writings, which is no different. Who are you trying to impress? God is not impress and neither are his sheep, they run from such voices as you are putting forth, and rightly so should they.
Your two quotes above absoultely makes no sense, if you used the same energy in seeking the truth, as you did in denying the truth, you just might find the truth. If you truly love the scriptures, then I pray God would be merciful to you and show you the error of your way, in all sincerity. RB
Still, using your standard, "the Bible never says", you become elect when you believe.
No, the methodology is a means to a end. The gospel is both the method and the means whereby God calls the elect to Himself.
By, through, never because of. Faith is the means. Your saved "by grace" through faith.
