civic
Active Member
no one is saved before believing, having faith in God.
John Piper: Born again through faith in the gospel
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
@civic
Jesus Christ secured eternal life for every single person given to him of his Father; their faith has not one thing to add to the salvation of God that he secured for them by Jesus' faith and obedience.
civic, you tell me how the words save/saved/salvation are used in the scriptures, I'm convinced you think that they are used only in sense of salvation from sin and condemnation, when in fact, they are used very little in that sense.
So, you give "NO" hope for those who have never heard the gospel; no hope for folks who are unable to process information, mainly the feeble minded folks of this world; you allow no hope for infants, those dying before they have mental power of reasoning!
Jesus Christ secured eternal life for every single person given to him of his Father; their faith has not one thing to add to the salvation of God that he secured for them by Jesus' faith and obedience.
civic, you tell me how the words save/saved/salvation are used in the scriptures, I'm convinced you think that they are used only in sense of salvation from sin and condemnation, when in fact, they are used very little in that sense.
civic
Active Member
God says no one is saved apart from the gospel. You are stuck believing Calvin over scripture. I use to believe like you for over 40 years
TibiasDad
Active Member
σῴζω means “to save, i.e. deliver or protect
{literally or figuratively}” whether the circumstance is a physical or spiritual in nature, it means the same thing. Healing is a physical type of σῴζω, while being delivered from sin and its consequences is a spiritual type of salvation.
The frequency of use in either case is irrelevant to its meaning and purpose.
Doug
Exactly. Faith is the means to a end. If your saved it was by grace. As it says. By the means of faith.
Redemption
Active Member
That sounds about right.
However, how do we distinguish works that we might do against works of God?
I was reading about this recently, about how baptism is a work and we are not saved by works. Therefore baptism is a work of God's.
I admit to being flummoxed with this idea. Also with the idea that there are so many fiffering kinds of work. On can hardly escape a day without one of them it seems.
I saw this outline on the author by Jack W. Cottrell of Baptism And The Remission of Sins, College Press, 1990, p. 32-34)
It is kind of long, but please bear with me until the question at the end
This came from
Executable Outlines
https://executableoutlines.com › topical_series › baptism › ba_08.html
Baptism Is A Work, We Are Not Saved By Works!
INTRODUCTION
- A popular objection to the necessity of baptism involves salvation and works...
- People often say, "Baptism is a work, and we are not saved by works!"
- Support for this objection is made by appealing to passages like Ep 2:8-9
- Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...
- But is it a work of merit, by which one earns salvation?
- Or is it a work of faith, by which one receives salvation?
- In considering the work involved in baptism, who is truly the one "at work"?
- Is it the man or woman who submits to being immersed?
- Or is it God who forgives and regenerates through the blood of Jesus and working of the Holy Spirit?
In this study I hope to make that clear. Let me begin by pointing out that...]
- BAPTISM IS A WORK OF FAITH, NOT MERIT
- THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF "WORKS"...
- There are works of "merit"
- These are works done to "earn" something
- Those who have done such works believe they "deserve" something; e.g., those who believe they will be saved:
- Because they kept the Ten Commandments
- Because they went to church, did good deeds, etc.
- It is these kinds of works Paul has under consideration in Ro 3:27-28; Ep 2:8-9; Tit 3:4-5a
- There is no way we can "earn" or merit" salvation!
- All the good we might do cannot outweigh even one sin! - cf. Jm 2:10
- There are also works of "faith"
- These are things done to "receive" something
- Those who have done such works believe they "deserve" nothing!
- They understand their obedience did not earn or merit their salvation
- They understand their salvation rests upon God's mercy and grace, not because God owes it to them!
- Such works can rightly be called "works of God"
- Of which faith itself is called by Jesus - Jn 6:28-29
- Other works of faith commanded by God include repentance and confession - cf. Ac 17:30; Ro 10:9-10
- Though such works as faith, repentance and confession are commanded...
- They are not meritorious works; we do not earn salvation through them
- They are works God has ordained we do to receive His salvation
- -- When all is said and done, salvation is still by God's grace and mercy!
- [What is said of faith, repentance, and confession may also be said of baptism...]
- There are works of "merit"
- BAPTISM IS A WORK OF FAITH, NOT MERIT...
- Baptism requires faith
- The necessity of faith was emphasized by Jesus - Mk 16:16
- Philip made it a prerequisite to baptism - Ac 8:36-37
- Baptism is an act of faith by which one receives (not earn)...
- That baptism is not a work of merit is emphasized in Tit 3:4-5
- While God saves us "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (an allusion to baptism)...
- He does not save us by "works of righteousness", i.e., by works of merit
- -- Thus baptism is clearly is not some work of righteousness done to earn or merit salvation!
- Baptism requires faith
- [Nowhere does the Bible suggest that baptism is a work of merit, by which God owes us salvation upon the basis of our baptism. Like faith, repentance, and confession, baptism is simply an act of faith by which we receive salvation.
And why is this so? Because...]
- THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF "WORKS"...
- BAPTISM INVOLVES THE WORKING OF GOD
- GOD IS AT WORK IN BAPTISM...
- We are buried and raised with Christ "through faith IN THE WORKING OF GOD" - Col 2:12
- It is God who does the work, not man! - Col 2:13
- Man is dead in his sins
- But God makes him alive, forgiving him of sins
- -- Thus it is God who saves us, not we ourselves, which He does through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit - Tit 3:5
- THINK OF BAPTISM AS A "SPIRITUAL OPERATION"...
- An operation in which the "Great Physician" does His work
- When one needs physical surgery, it requires faith in the skills of a physician to submit to the operating table
- When the surgery is over, have I "earned" or "merited" my healing? No!
- It required both faith in the doctor and a willingness to submit to him!
- So my faith in God and in the death of His Son for my sins prompted me to submit to the "spiritual operation" of baptism, in which God did His wonderful work of cleansing by the blood of Jesus and regeneration by the Holy Spirit!
- GOD IS AT WORK IN BAPTISM...
CONCLUSION
- When we understand that baptism...
- Is a work of faith, not a work of merit
- Is a working of God at which time we receive salvation, not earn salvation
- -- We will not reject the necessity of baptism under the mistaken idea that it is some work by which we try to earn salvation
- Sadly, many people reject baptism because they see it as something you DO...
- In reality, baptism is the most PASSIVE act of faith required to receive Christ and the blessings He provides
- I.e., "believe", "repent", "confess Christ", are all things we DO
- On the other hand, baptism is something DONE TO US
- Consider this...
- "Faith," "repentance," and "confession" are all ACTIVE acts of faith on our part
- "Baptism" is but a PASSIVE act of faith in which we submit to the working of God in our lives (cf. Col 2:12)
- -- To object to baptism because it requires man to "do" something would require one to object to "faith," "repentance," and "confession," for they also require man to "do" something!
- Even Martin Luther, who coined the phrase "salvation by faith only", understood that salvation by grace through faith did not preclude the necessity of baptism:
- In answer to the question, "What gifts or benefits does Baptism bestow?", Luther replied in his Small Catechism, "It effects forgiveness of sins."
- He also wrote concerning the sinner: "Through Baptism he is bathed in the blood of Christ and is cleansed from sins."
- Again, he wrote: "To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save."
- Responding to those who call this a kind of works-salvation, he said "Yes, it is true that our works are of no use for salvation. Baptism, however, is not our work but God's." -- (as quoted by Jack W. Cottrell in Baptism And The Remission of Sins, College Press, 1990, p. 32-34)
Have you submitted to the working of God in baptism? If you believe that Jesus died for your sins on the cross, have repented of your sins and are willing to confess your faith in Him as the Son of God, you can receive the working of God in your life today!
Alright, A long read that has no clear explanation, though since this is an outline to a book of Jack Cottrell I assume
it deliberately leaves one looking for more.
My question to you @Red Baker is since you said "Any works that we do are the works of the law, which if a man does, proves his free justification, not the means thereof!" And I tend to agree with your statement.
With everything listed in this outline, doesn't one automatically do works of some kind whether they intended to or not? And how do the works of God fit in?
Looking forward to your reply.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Grace is God's action toward us, faith is ours toward his graciousness! Without either of these, there cannot be salvation.
Doug
@civic
Consider this short message and then we can talk more on this subject. Whether you agree on disagree which most likely you will.
Doug, the word of God is more than capable of defining its own uses of words that the Holy Ghost moved men to write ~ You would do well to trust Him for your definitions, it would save you from embarrassment, by making such statements as :
"The frequency of use in either case is irrelevant to its meaning and purpose." Consider the message above and then we can talk. In the mean time~
You and others used the words save/saved/salvation in only one sense, just as a person would who had never seriously considered the word of God.
Consider this short message and then we can talk more on this subject. Whether you agree on disagree which most likely you will.
Greetings Doug,
Doug, the word of God is more than capable of defining its own uses of words that the Holy Ghost moved men to write ~ You would do well to trust Him for your definitions, it would save you from embarrassment, by making such statements as :
"The frequency of use in either case is irrelevant to its meaning and purpose." Consider the message above and then we can talk. In the mean time~
1st Timothy 4:16
“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”1st Corinthians 15:2
“By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”1st Corinthians 1:18
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”1st Corinthians 1:21
“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”Acts 2:40
“And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”Agreed. That, however, does not negate the fact that faith is a gift of God and it is not of ourselves.
I think we have reached a impasse here and we will have to agree to partially agree.
Thanks for the discussion Doug.
@Redemption
I will say two things in opposition to what Mr. Cottrell said above:
1) Works can be defined as : "Anything that we have an active part in in order to receive the benefit of doing a commandment, is a work of the law given!
2) He does not understand Ephesians 2:8~In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
1) We are not saved legally by our faith, and certainly not by works, for a man to just come out and declare that message, one would not be able to deceive his followers.
2) He showing his true colors as an enemy of Christ's gospel by saying: "at the same time saved by baptism." Legally speaking, water baptism has no power to save in a legal sense ~ only practical, post Christ's death and resurrection giving us a true knowledge of the gospel, much more so than any had from the OT and those who have never been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ.
The will of the flesh is man's so-called free will; the will of man, would be the person leading, directing one on the new birth, etc.
Not the grammar!
It is very easy to get perplexed, with all of the other voices in the world, and the manner which the Holy Ghost gave His word to us, with the sound bites therein available, if our hearts will not receive the truth as it is in Jesus Christ, then those sound bites add judgment to their rejection of God's truth, a judgement of living under a very strong delusion, per 2nd Thess 2.
Very familiar with Mr. Cottrell, a church of Christ minister, that teaches baptism regeneration, even though he and is followers will not use that term since it reveals too much about them up front, yet he without question teaches the necessity of being baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of one's sins, and that forgiveness he is speaking of is in a legal sense, not practical, or/and symbolical. Mr. Cottrell is @Jim favorite teacher.
He's very carefully to entice, inveigle, seduce one into believing in baptism as the means of having one's sin forgiveness, by saying what he is saying in the quote box above.
I will say two things in opposition to what Mr. Cottrell said above:
1) Works can be defined as : "Anything that we have an active part in in order to receive the benefit of doing a commandment, is a work of the law given!
2) He does not understand Ephesians 2:8~In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Mr. Cottrell, is deceived and is deceiving any who will listen to him.
1) We are not saved legally by our faith, and certainly not by works, for a man to just come out and declare that message, one would not be able to deceive his followers.
2) He showing his true colors as an enemy of Christ's gospel by saying: "at the same time saved by baptism." Legally speaking, water baptism has no power to save in a legal sense ~ only practical, post Christ's death and resurrection giving us a true knowledge of the gospel, much more so than any had from the OT and those who have never been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ.
Works is man having an ACTIVE part in doing a commandment in hoping to receive a reward for doing so. I do not care how one package a box and send it out, if man must do any thing in order to receive the gift, then it is a work on that man's part. BUT, more than that, the scriptures are clear, that man's flesh has no good thing so that a man can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God! Works are works, I do not care how Mr. Cottrell defines works, if we have an active part in anything, then it becomes a work on our part....it is just that simple. But, it is more that. the faith in Ephesians 2:8 is not speaking of our faith, but Christ's acting as our surety before God's law as we said above already.
Baptism is without question a work on our part, the first step of a believer in giving to God an answer of a good conscience. more on this later.
It is a work period! Both on the part of one baptizing and the one being baptized. It goes totally against such scriptures as :
John 1:13
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”The will of the flesh is man's so-called free will; the will of man, would be the person leading, directing one on the new birth, etc.
1st John 5:1
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”Not the grammar!
The speaker in that video would have Paul saved before his sins were forgiven. That is total nonsense. That only says that the speaker has no idea whatsoever what it means to be saved. I didn't bother to listen much further after that became rather obvious.@civic
You and others used the words save/saved/salvation in only one sense, just as a person would who had never seriously considered the word of God.
Consider this short message and then we can talk more on this subject. Whether you agree on disagree which most likely you will.
civic
Active Member
Agreed no one is saved before they believe, no one receives the Holy Spirit before they believe, no one is born again before they believe, no one is regenerated before they believe, no one receives eternal life before they believe. These all occur after one believes and becomes a child f God, a new creation in Christ, a temple of the Holy Spirit.
They place the cart before the horse.
@civic
To see the kingdom of God is to believe in the teachings, miracles, works of the kingdom of God are synonyms.
You mean, no one is born again, before they believe. Really? Then by this statement, you are revealing to me, that you do understand John 3:1-10.
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”To see the kingdom of God is to believe in the teachings, miracles, works of the kingdom of God are synonyms.
John 3:2
“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”You have it backwards ~ no one believes until they are first quickened to life by God creating a new man within them after the image of Jesus Christ, which man alone has the power to do spiritual acts pleasing unto God; it is impossible for the flesh, or man by nature to have this power! Romans 7:18; 8:5-9; 1st Corinthians 2:12-14; etc.
Pray tell me, how a person who is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, but at war, has this power on his own, both cannot be so, and be according to God's testimony of what is the truth.
Regeneration is a new creation, which give the person power to do spiritual acts, which he would not otherwise have power to do, or, even have "a desire" to do. Romans 3:10-18. You are going against God's testimony of the truth.
You have man pretty much being his own Savior. Eternal life was promised to the seed of Jesus Christ before the world began in the covenant of grace, apart from works.
Titus 1:2
“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”2nd Timothy 1:9
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”The scriptures said that you have a man made cart that does not need a horse~let us see how far that get you.
Yes, really!!!! Get rid of that nonsensical, nonbiblical doctrine of Total Depravity and then you too will understand what it means to be born again. As it is, your soteriology is terribly, terribly tainted with that heretical doctrine. It makes an absolute ogre of God.
DavidTree
Active Member
John 3:16–17 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people
The text does state belief is impossible because of:
a.) sin enslaves and condemns
b.) sin has an origin(satan) that man cannot escape from apart from Christ
DavidTree
Active Member
@Red Baker @civic
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:16-18
@civic = Who placed the Seed of the Gospel inside us? = ministers of the Gospel whom God saved
How did those ministers of Grace hear???
Trace everything back at you will SEE = "IAM the Alpha"
Move Forward to the End and you will SEE = "IAM the Omega"
Who is in the Middle??? = "The Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive"
Who hovered "over the waters" of Creation = the Holy Spirit
Whom did JESUS Say is responsible for us being Born-Again = the Holy Spirit = John 3:1-10
Who Preached the Good News after JESUS Ascended back to the FATHER = the HOLY SPIRIT = Acts chapter 1 & 2
None of us had power to believe UNTIL the FATHER began His Work in us, via the Holy Spirit
Without ELOHIM(All THREE) no one could be saved = "not of yourselves lest anyone should boast"
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:16-18
@civic = Who placed the Seed of the Gospel inside us? = ministers of the Gospel whom God saved
How did those ministers of Grace hear???
Trace everything back at you will SEE = "IAM the Alpha"
Move Forward to the End and you will SEE = "IAM the Omega"
Who is in the Middle??? = "The Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive"
Who hovered "over the waters" of Creation = the Holy Spirit
Whom did JESUS Say is responsible for us being Born-Again = the Holy Spirit = John 3:1-10
Who Preached the Good News after JESUS Ascended back to the FATHER = the HOLY SPIRIT = Acts chapter 1 & 2
None of us had power to believe UNTIL the FATHER began His Work in us, via the Holy Spirit
Without ELOHIM(All THREE) no one could be saved = "not of yourselves lest anyone should boast"
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