James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Doug Brents]

First you said - "faith is not something you can do in your head/heart" yet now you are back peddling and saying we certainly do. So, which is it?

It is impossible to converse with you because you either willfully act like you are completely stupid, or you are so steeped in your false doctrine that you cannot see clearly (I believe it is the latter).

I will answer this one point and then consign you to the destiny you have earned (Rom 2:6).
Yes, there is an internal, mental portion of faith, just as there is a physical body. But there is also a physical, active portion to faith, just as there is a spirit. And just as the body has no life in it unless the spirit is also in it, the mental portion of faith has no life in it unless it also has actions.

You would have us believe that the mental portions of faith provide life (salvation), and then later are demonstrated through actions. But that is not what Scripture says. It says that there is no life in only the mental aspects of faith. There is only life in a full, complete, action producing faith.

 

[mailmandan]

It is impossible to converse with you because you either willfully act like you are completely stupid, or you are so steeped in your false doctrine that you cannot see clearly (I believe it is the latter).

Salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not false doctrine. Works salvation/works righteousness = false doctrine. (Romans 4:6; 11:6) The reason why certain folks cannot see clearly is because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14) These certain folks who do not believe the gospel are blinded by the god of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Now believers have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:12-13) It takes the Holy Spirit and not a master's degree.

I will answer this one point and then consign you to the destiny you have earned (Rom 2:6).

Romans 2:7 - To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Looking forward to it!

Yes, there is an internal, mental portion of faith, just as there is a physical body. But there is also a physical, active portion to faith, just as there is a spirit. And just as the body has no life in it unless the spirit is also in it, the mental portion of faith has no life in it unless it also has actions.

The actions/works are the fruit of faith. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) *Unless we have been made alive together with Christ (who is the source of spiritual life and eternal life) by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) then we remain spiritually dead. The natural man just doesn't understand.

You would have us believe that the mental portions of faith provide life (salvation), and then later are demonstrated through actions.

You would have us believe that we are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith is not merely mental but is from the heart (Romans 10:10) and involves trust and reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This is the deeper faith that you cannot seem to grasp demonstrated by your trust in works and lack of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Actions/good works are produced later, after having been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith and created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) The actions/good works are not instantaneous the very moment that we have been saved by grace through faith. We show our faith by our works, (James 2:18) but we do not establish it. We are saved by faith at its origin and not later by works, which simply demonstrate our faith.

But that is not what Scripture says. It says that there is no life in only the mental aspects of faith. There is only life in a full, complete, action producing faith.

So, according to your logic, there was no life in Abraham's faith when he believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him as righteous. *Also see Romans 4:2-3. According to your logic, Abraham's faith remained dead until many years later after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

 

[dwight92070]

"Mental aspects of faith" is mentioned nowhere in Scripture, but that's typical of false doctrine advocates. They often make up false concepts and then say that they are in the Scripture.

"consign you to the destiny you have earned"? Dan's destiny is to be with Jesus forever, but he is the first to say that he did not earn that. You are the one who falsely claims you earn salvation by doing a specific work.

 

[Doug Brents]

"Mental aspects of faith" is mentioned nowhere in Scripture, but that's typical of false doctrine advocates. They often make up false concepts and then say that they are in the Scripture.

Faith is both mental and physical in nature. There must be thoughts (belief, understanding), and there must be physical action (obedience) or there isn't really any faith there.

"consign you to the destiny you have earned"? Dan's destiny is to be with Jesus forever, but he is the first to say that he did not earn that. You are the one who falsely claims you earn salvation by doing a specific work.

Never have I ever stated or implied that salvation is earned by obedience to God's commands. But you are blinded by Satan to the fact that obedience is essential to receiving salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

James 2:14-20 Here James is speaking to Christians, as is the case for all of Scripture. But he specifically says "my brethren" in verse 14, that is fellow believers. Again, this passage is addressed to believers.

James warns them that, as Christians, we must produce fruit or works. Paul told Titus the same thing in Titus 3:8:
"This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

If a Christian is not producing good works, then one of two things is happening: Either 1. They're not really a Christian, even though they profess to be or 2. They are a Christian but they're being disobedient by not following the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teaching of the word of God.

James gives an example: "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

Notice that James is speaking of a good work to other Christians, other believers. This agrees with what Paul said in Galatians 6:10: "So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith."

Notice James did not give the example of two other specific good works: 1. Confessing with your mouth Jesus as Lord and 2. Being baptized. Why?

Because they were already saved. And if they were already saved, then they had already confessed with their mouth Jesus as Lord, and were continuing to, and they had already been baptized.

In verse 18, James says that faith must be shown to others, by the works that follow that faith:
"But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This agrees with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

How do we do that? By doing good works, but not wishing to be seen by men, but by God.

Then James summarizes: "But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?"

A Christian without good works is useless, because he is being unfruitful.

Titus 3:14 Our people (Believers) must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful."

Now let's look at James 2:21-26.

Here we see an example of two believers in the Old Testament - Abraham and Rahab. They were already saved. How do we know that?

Well, look at verse 21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" When did Abraham offer up Isaac? When he was first saved? No, of course not, it was much later than that.

The first time we see Abraham exercising faith is in Genesis 12. He was 75 and Hebrews 11:8 tells us "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going."

This is the point of his salvation. But Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born - 25 years later. Then depending on how old Isaac was when Abraham offered him - let's say he was 20 - Then that means that Abraham had been saved around 45 years, when he offered up his son Isaac.

Therefore the word "justified" in verse 21 cannot mean "saved" because he had already been saved for about 45 years! So what does "justified" mean here?

It means just what James mentioned in verse 18 where he said, "... show me your faith ... and I will show you my faith ..." Even the Strong's concordance agrees with that: "to show to be righteous" or it can also mean "to declare righteous"

So "justified" apparently can mean "saved" (present tense -to declare righteous), but it can also mean "to show to be righteous"(salvation occurred previously). This the meaning in verse 21.

On a certain date I was declared to be married - "I now pronounce you husband and wife." But today it can be shown that I am still married. (marriage occurred previously)

I must continue later.

 

[dwight92070]

How old was Abraham in James 2:23, when Genesis 15:6 is quoted? Well, he left Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 15:7) when he was 75 and he is in Canaan when the Scripture says "Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." The next age of Abraham that we are given is when Sarai gave him her maid, Hagar, to give birth to Ishmael. Gen. 16:3 says that he had been in Canaan for 10 years when that happened.

So he had to have been between 75 and 85 years old at the time when God reckoned his faith as righteousness. However it could not have happened at the same time as his salvation back in Ur, because it took some time to travel to Canaan, which is where he is reckoned as righteous - probably at least several months. But given the multiple events of Genesis 12, 13, and 14, it was more likely that several years has transpired, but no more than 10.

Therefore Genesis 15:6 cannot be referring to his salvation. He was already saved, at least several months, and more likely several years prior to this event.

So here we see Abraham's faith is acknowledged by God, even though we see no immediate specific work that Abraham performed to get God to reckon his faith as righteousness. However, James seems to count Abraham's work of a willingness to sacrifice Isaac, (even though this had to occur approximately 25 or more years later) as the demonstration of his faith.

In verse 24 we read, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Once again, "justified" here cannot mean "saved", because Abraham was already saved. Rather it has to mean "it was shown that" he had faith already, because he was saved earlier.

What about Rahab? We know she was a believer in God at the very first mention of her name in Judges 2:1 How do we know? Just read verses 2-21. In verse 11 she says: "... for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath."

As a believer, her good works followed her faith, by hiding the spies and not turning them over to be killed. And by faith, she gathered all her family and friends to her place, when Jericho was attacked, and she left the cord of scarlet thread in her window, and they were all delivered from certain death.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

How old was Abraham in James 2:23, when Genesis 15:6 is quoted? Well, he left Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 15:7) when he was 75 and he is in Canaan when the Scripture says "Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." The next age of Abraham that we are given is when Sarai gave him her maid, Hagar, to give birth to Ishmael. Gen. 16:3 says that he had been in Canaan for 10 years when that happened.

So he had to have been between 75 and 85 years old at the time when God reckoned his faith as righteousness. However it could not have happened at the same time as his salvation back in Ur, because it took some time to travel to Canaan, which is where he is reckoned as righteous - probably at least several months. But given the multiple events of Genesis 12, 13, and 14, it was more likely that several years has transpired, but no more than 10.

Therefore Genesis 15:6 cannot be referring to his salvation. He was already saved, at least several months, and more likely several years prior to this event.

So here we see Abraham's faith is acknowledged by God, even though we see no immediate specific work that Abraham performed to get God to reckon his faith as righteousness. However, James seems to count Abraham's work of a willingness to sacrifice Isaac, (even though this had to occur approximately 25 or more years later) as the demonstration of his faith.

In verse 24 we read, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Once again, "justified" here cannot mean "saved", because Abraham was already saved. Rather it has to mean "it was shown that" he had faith already, because he was saved earlier.

What about Rahab? We know she was a believer in God at the very first mention of her name in Judges 2:1 How do we know? Just read verses 2-21. In verse 11 she says: "... for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath."

As a believer, her good works followed her faith, by hiding the spies and not turning them over to be killed. And by faith, she gathered all her family and friends to her place, when Jericho was attacked, and she left the cord of scarlet thread in her window, and they were all delivered from certain death.

For abraham BELIEVED GOD . yes indeed my friend .
you forgot to mention what paul , when writing to timothy also states . And it aligns exactly with what james too
had wrote .
HE who provides not , a work , for his own and specially those of his household
has DENIED THE FAITH and is worse than an infidel .
You see both james and paul KNEW one had To BELEIVE ON JESUS
and they both knew what was dead faith . cause often times , AS I ONCE DID MYSELF ,
one can lip the name of JESUS , claim to beleive on JESUS
and yet DENY HIM and walk in sin . Many beleive on another jesus my friend . Many follow
another jesus . and that there jesus they follow SEEMTH to serve their flesh . BAD SIGN right there .
SO if anyones jesus contradicts the words and teachings of THE JESUS
i promise us all , ITS NOT JESUS you be beleiving or folllowing or LOVING .
Its something else all together that has used the GLORIOUS NAME OF SAID JESUS
to recreate a jesus in its own image. that god cannot save , that jesus cannot save .
May i suggest , as often i do , FOLKS get into those bibles and let us test and see
Which one we love and follow . was it the jesus created in the image of man
that will serve them carnal lusts , OR IS IT THE JESUS the very express image of GOD all Mighty HIMSELF .
cause only ONE of them can save a man . and it aint the one created in the pulpits of men
for to keep the numbers and the dollars coming in , SO IT adapted and changed with the times . that one
aint JESUS and it aint OF GOD . e