John Piper: Born again through faith in the gospel

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

Doug, you are 100% correct, so, my question to you is this: "Why do men not believe if they live and die never believing?"
Let us listen carefully to Jesus' reason why some do not believe:

John 10:26,27​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

And if they are not Christs Sheep He doesnt claim to have died for them as Per Jn 10:11,15

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad

Doug, you are 100% correct, so, my question to you is this: "Why do men not believe if they live and die never believing?"
Let us listen carefully to Jesus' reason why some do not believe:

John 10:26,27​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

Jesus’s words are a very specific statement to a particular group at a particular time. Basically, he says that those who are part of his flock are evidenced by the fact that they believe, and the converse is true that those who are not of his flock are apparent due to their unbelief.

It does not say anything about this being a permanent state, or that these unbelievers can never believe, but only that their current unbelief is expected because they are not a part of his flock at the present moment.

Yes it does. When the completed action was past, with results in the present, the present was future from the past. For instance, if someone finished brushing their teeth at 7 am and they are still brushed at 9 am, wasnt 9 am future from 7 am ?

Please quote me a reputable Greek expert that defines the perfect tense to mean what you have said!

I Googled “biblical perfect tense” and these are a couple of the definitions given, which align perfectly with the definition I learned when taking Greek:

The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: “I have believed.”

Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present.

And….the AI definition that popped up

AI Overview

In Ancient Greek, the perfect tense signifies an action completed in the past that has a result continuing into the present or a state that still exists. It indicates that the action is finished and has a relevant consequence now.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Completed Action:
  The perfect tense describes an action that was finished at a certain point in the past.
  
  
• • Resulting State:
    The key characteristic is that the action's result is still relevant and in effect at the time of speaking.
  • No Implication of Future Continuance:
    The perfect tense doesn't necessarily imply that the result will continue into the future; it simply states that the consequence is present now.
  • Different from Aorist:
    The aorist tense also refers to past actions, but it emphasizes the action itself without necessarily indicating a continuing result. The perfect tense, in contrast, emphasizes the present-day impact of the past action

Doug

 

[civic]

Jesus’s words are a very specific statement to a particular group at a particular time. Basically, he says that those who are part of his flock are evidenced by the fact that they believe, and the converse is true that those who are not of his flock are apparent due to their unbelief.

It does not say anything about this being a permanent state, or that these unbelievers can never believe, but only that their current unbelief is expected because they are not a part of his flock at the present moment.

Please quote me a reputable Greek expert that defines the perfect tense to mean what you have said!

I Googled “biblical perfect tense” and these are a couple of the definitions given, which align perfectly with I learned definition when taking Greek:

The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: “I have believed.”

Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present.

And….the AI definition that popped up

AI Overview



+1

In Ancient Greek, the perfect tense signifies an action completed in the past that has a result continuing into the present or a state that still exists. It indicates that the action is finished and has a relevant consequence now.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Completed Action:
  The perfect tense describes an action that was finished at a certain point in the past.
  
  
• • Resulting State:
    The key characteristic is that the action's result is still relevant and in effect at the time of speaking.
  • No Implication of Future Continuance:
    The perfect tense doesn't necessarily imply that the result will continue into the future; it simply states that the consequence is present now.
  • Different from Aorist:
    The aorist tense also refers to past actions, but it emphasizes the action itself without necessarily indicating a continuing result. The perfect tense, in contrast, emphasizes the present-day impact of the past action

Doug

Soldier on brother!

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Soldier on brother!

Friendly but dire dire necessary this reminder is . I would not heed the piper whose name is john .
I know abouts that man . and yes i know people can speak truths at times .
but that is one man we need not to follow .

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

Jesus’s words are a very specific statement to a particular group at a particular time. Basically, he says that those who are part of his flock are evidenced by the fact that they believe, and the converse is true that those who are not of his flock are apparent due to their unbelief.

Greetings Doug again,

Actually, you are missing (maybe I should say avoiding) the point, and dancing around my very short post to you. What does time have to do with what Jesus said, or even a particular group, it still does not change what he said, which is that His SHEEP hear his voice, which clearly implies that others cannot hear, you must be a sheep to hear! Very simple to follow, unless one has a agenda they are out to protect and to put forth.

Doug, I do not not know you, so I'm speaking what I know to be true, and it is what human nature does. It is hard to let go of something we have come to believe to be true, we generally do not let go of our beliefs quickly and we should not, unless one present evidences against us that we cannot refute.

It does not say anything about this being a permanent state, or that these unbelievers can never believe,

I agree it does not say anything about this being permanent....please notice how I worded my statement to you:

Why do men not believe if they live and die never believing?"

So, my question still stand for you to address.

Please quote me a reputable Greek expert that defines the perfect tense to mean what you have said!

Doug, you are talking to the wrong man, the Greek language means nothing to me, we have the word of God in our own tongue, running to the Greek is a way folks try to escape what the scriptures are actually saying.

Doug, let me share something with you up front that I read many years ago from a minister that wrote this in 1650 shortly after the KJV came out, he said:

"The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible, in his “New Testament Confutation,” printed in 1589. But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. Acts.18:26. Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, I Cor.2:10; he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isa.29:10-12. Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. “But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit, for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ.” I Cor.2:9-16. “I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.” Psal.119:99-100. The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, Exod.32:4-8, &c., and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. "

I can read John 10:26,27 in our bible without running to a language that neither you or I know, and do not need to know ~ besides, we have the word of God in our own tongue, thank you blessed God for this wonderful gift to us....let us look to Him for the understanding of his word, and then faithfully preach and teach it.

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

Please quote me a reputable Greek expert that defines the perfect tense to mean what you have said!

I wont be putting forth any special effort like that, I have given you suffice definition for the perfect tense and you dont believe, and besides, greek experts arent the final authority on spiritual truth. They are not the Holy Spirit who is the primary author of divine truth.

And the Truth remains, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost.

 

[TibiasDad]

Actually, you are missing (maybe I should say avoiding) the point, and dancing around my very short post to you. What does time have to do with what Jesus said, or even a particular group, it still does not change what he said, which is that His SHEEP hear his voice, which clearly implies that others cannot hear, you must be a sheep to hear!

It only implies that others have not yet heard. Sheep have heard; that’s how they become a part of his flock. They have understood and believed what they have been told and have both received Christ and have been received by Christ.

Others have also heard and either not understood or have understood and outright rejected the truth. (John 12:48)

Doug, I do not not know you,

Apparently you know me well enough to say I’m avoiding the point…

so I'm speaking what I know to be true, and it is what human nature does. It is hard to let go of something we have come to believe to be true, we generally do not let go of our beliefs quickly and we should not, unless one present evidences against us that we cannot refute.

1) That goes for you too!

2) You haven’t presented an argument that I can’t refute.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

It only implies that others have not yet heard. Sheep have heard; that’s how they become a part of his flock.

Thats error, they part of Christs flock He has before they hear His Voice and believe like stated here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus said other Sheep I have [present tense] however their hearing His voice is future tense, shall hear is ἀκούω future active indicative. Again I have ἔχω is present active indicative, He owns them now and possesses them

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad



Thats error, they part of Christs flock He has before they hear His Voice and believe like stated here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus said other Sheep I have [present tense] however their hearing His voice is future tense, shall hear is ἀκούω future active indicative. Again I have ἔχω is present active indicative, He owns them now and possesses them

Jesus knows that there are those who will believe and speaks of them in present tense. Foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus knows that there are those who will believe and speaks of them in present tense. Foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.

Doug

I showed you dont know what you talking about

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

It only implies that others have not yet heard. Sheep have heard; that’s how they become a part of his flock. They have understood and believed what they have been told and have both received Christ and have been received by Christ.

Others have also heard and either not understood or have understood and outright rejected the truth. (John 12:48)

Doug, I have too much to do, and at the moment, and I will not debate a person chasing his own tail thinking he truly defending truth.

It does not only prove that others have not heard, that is not even implied in Jesus' statement, it's wishful thinking on your part, nothing more ~ well, yes more, you are corrupting God's word in doing so and that not a safe ground to stand on. Again Jesus clearly said:

John 10:26,27

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

Doug you said it only implies that others have not heard yet. Is that your final answer? Then your own words condemn for perverting scriptures! Who was Jesus taking to?

John 10:25​

“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.”

THEN Jesus said: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

You did add: "Others have also heard and either not understood or have understood and outright rejected the truth. (John 12:48):

You still are not getting the truth! Listen carefully: "My sheep hear my voice"~ You MUST be a sheep before you can hear: this truth is taught all through the word of God, not just here. God does not take goats and make them sheep, you are born a sheep, maybe lost, nevertheless a sheep ~ chosen before the foundation of the world to be a sheep, never a goat. ONLY by nature are we children of wrath, but not so by God's election of grace! Please consider Jesus' words:

John 10:16​

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

There's is no chance that a sheep will NOT hear, for Christ said clearly they shall hear. This goes against what you are teaching, meaning you are not teaching the truth, not sure if this bother you or not, I trust it does in all sincerity.

Apparently you know me well enough to say I’m avoiding the point…

Agreed and thank you.

1) That goes for you too

Agreed

2) You haven’t presented an argument that I can’t refute.

Well Doug we have had maybe no more than two or three exchanges, correct me if I'm wrong. Whether or not I can, and you ever admitting the same is another story.. Very seldom does this happens, we are here more so helping younger folks seeking the truth and to give testimony of God's truth, we have no power to convert others from the error of their way, only Lord can do this using our feeble, sometimes foolish efforts, but the power is His not ours.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug you said it only implies that others have not heard yet. Is that your final answer? Then your own words condemn for perverting scriptures! Who was Jesus taking to?

You either believe or disbelieve something that you have been told. If you comprehend the implications of what is said, you will believe and accept it as truth or disbelieve and reject it as being truthful. To hear, is more than just receiving an audio message, it carries the meaning of understanding what is heard and being culpable for your response to it.

The message goes out; it is comprehended and adjudicated as being believable or not; and we react accordingly with our conclusions.

In the Bible, some hear but don’t fully comprehend, and yet believe because of what they see Jesus do. (John 2:23)

Some believe as described above, but then turn away when they cannot accept what they’re being told. (John 6:53-66)

Some believe in spite of their doubts or lack of understanding because of what they’ve experienced. (Matt 28:17)

Many see these same things yet do not believe for a plethora of reasons, all of which result in them not being part of Jesus’s flock of sheep. They could be, but refuse to believe.


Doug

 

[DavidTree]

The gift is salvation, not faith.

John 20:31 (NASB95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

You either believe or disbelieve something that you have been told. If you comprehend the implications of what is said, you will believe and accept it as truth or disbelieve and reject it as being truthful. To hear, is more than just receiving an audio message, it carries the meaning of understanding what is heard and being culpable for your response to it.

The message goes out; it is comprehended and adjudicated as being believable or not; and we react accordingly with our conclusions.

In the Bible, some hear but don’t fully comprehend, and yet believe because of what they see Jesus do. (John 2:23)

Some believe as described above, but then turn away when they cannot accept what they’re being told. (John 6:53-66)

Some believe in spite of their doubts or lack of understanding because of what they’ve experienced. (Matt 28:17)

Many see these same things yet do not believe f

Good morning Doug,

I agree with what you just posit ~but, here's the point you still are rejecting: Both the sheep and goat do this, but when hearing (and many factors come into play as to WHY this is so) and not believed when at first they both hear ~but Doug, it is the spirit in which they reject what they hear, much like Nicodemus, who was SLOW at receiving what Christ taught him in John 3, very slow, yet he without question showed his faith in two clear instances in John's gospel~John 7:50,51; John 19:39,40. So, the sheep overall will hear the voice of the shepherd and turned to believing the truth; why, BECUASE they are sheep, but the goats (or, the generation of evil and wicked men, refer to in the scriptures as THIS generation) never turn...why? because they are not sheep, never chosen to be a sheep, they were left in their sins, to face the consequences of their sins, just as Pharaoh and all of his host did in the red sea. If these truth are too hard for you to believe, then you have a problem, not necessarily with those who bring this gospel truth, but first with the word of God who gives testimony/witness to these truths, and then with those few who relay these truths without compromising the scriptures.

Here's the sum: The sheep have the power given to believe (John 1:12) and eventually show their faith, all on different levels of understanding because of many different factors that comes into play during their life; the goats, or the generation of evil wicked men never come to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ, they spend their life fighting truth and rejecting all truths taught by faithful men of God, the medium by which the information of truth comes to the sheep, but them being sheep, was by God power alone, apart from all means whatsoever, they were chosen by grace alone and given to Jesus Christ to redeem them from all sins being their surety before the law of God. And was he ever a perfect, glorious surety for God's elect! And all of the children of God's said...amen and amen.

 

[TibiasDad]

So, the sheep overall will hear the voice of the shepherd and turned to believing the truth; why, BECUASE they are sheep,

This is circular reasoning and counter to scriptural descriptions.
You assume that God has arbitrarily selected certain people to be sheep as the axiom; a premise that has no explicit scriptural pronouncements or support. Then you correctly conclude that Christ’s sheep must necessarily believe, but not to become sheep but “because they are (already) sheep”! This is assuming the premise to be true to prove the premise is true.

but the goats (or, the generation of evil and wicked men, refer to in the scriptures as THIS generation) never turn...why?

Scripture clearly states that men must believe to be among his sheep, on this we agree. But the “sheep and goat” references are only at the judgment when the reality of our human choices in life are set in stone. (Matt 25:32-33)
Yes, it is fair to say that unbelievers are “goats” (not to be confused with G.O.A.T.s like Abraham) and believers are sheep under the shepherd’s care, but all believers were once unbelievers, and all are capable of becoming believers/sheep, for whomever among the unbelievers believe, become believers and thus sheep.

As to why, I don’t think it is a valid or necessary question, because it is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is the state of belief we are in at the judgment seat, not why we are what we are.

We know that all will be one or the other, but the only real why question is the differential of why some are condemned and others accepted? The answer, from the human perspective is belief or a lack thereof. This is the only relevant question. (The why/how question is always answered by “grace” from the divine perspective.)



Doug

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

This is circular reasoning and counter to scriptural descriptions.

Greetings again Doug,

No circular reasoning on my part, because the doctrine I teach concerning unconditional salvation by grace alone, through the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, can easily be proven by many infallible proofs from the scriptures, proving that this doctrine is absoultely necessary in order for one to be raised to life at the last day. For, if there's is no election of grace, that makes one a sheep from eternity past, then man by nature cannot come to God on his own in time, impossible, mainly because he is in bondage to an enemy stronger than himself, and needs to be set free by a power greater than himself, and the enemy that is holding him captive, all this and so much more can be proven by God's testimony of the truth.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

What God foresaw was that unless he had an election securing both angles and man, then none would have ever done so by their own power and strength, none. Why, for God alone is immutable and cannot be tempted with sin and be overcome by evil. This is an attribute that God alone possess..

So, my position is supported by the testimony of the scriptures, and no greater witness can one have than God's witness of the truth.

1st John 5:9​

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.”

You assume that God has arbitrarily selected certain people to be sheep as the axiom; a premise that has no explicit scriptural pronouncements or support.

Assumption? You are talking to the wrong person, I live by God's witness of what his word teaches, and give testimony to, and you say it has no support for the scriptures, then pray to tell me, what do you have, that you did not receive graciously from God, or who made the difference between you that believe in God, and the person who died in their sins, without faith? Or, Has Paul asked:

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Christ said to Peter:

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

And this divine revelation is the foundation upon which Christ is building his church; so to deny this necessity of divine revelation that is absolutely necessary before one can believe is to fat out reject God's testimony of the truth. If either of us is guilty of circular reasoning it would be you. Your reasoning has no solid proof to support your assumption, as the sum of your position ~ as the commercial goes..."show me your facts" to support your reasoning.

Then you correctly conclude that Christ’s sheep must necessarily believe

I never said those exact words, because some of the sheep may never come to believe in certain truths, and even if some do, none do so without some error being part of their position. But will say this: faith is the one of the main evidence of being a sheep, for without faith it is impossible to know one is a sheep, because sheep do hear the voice of the shepherd, if they hear the word of God preach in truth, for faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But, only sheep hear and can obey, because he is a sheep.

Scripture clearly states that men must believe to be among his sheep, on this we agree.

We believe differently ~ Doug, some elect sheep may never come to believe for different reasons, but still are sheep~the likes of the mentally challenge; heathen where the gospel may have never been preached, those that died before they are able to believe, (no such doctrine as the age of accountability, since we were all accountable in Adam), etc.

That being said, there is no proof one is a sheep, if there is no faith, but, the Lord knoweth those who are His, even when we can not, and do not know, and will never know perfectly such things. Enough said.

 

[Presby02]

@TibiasDad

Doug, I have too much to do, and at the moment, and I will not debate a person chasing his own tail thinking he truly defending truth.

It does not only prove that others have not heard, that is not even implied in Jesus' statement, it's wishful thinking on your part, nothing more ~ well, yes more, you are corrupting God's word in doing so and that not a safe ground to stand on. Again Jesus clearly said:

John 10:26,27

Doug you said it only implies that others have not heard yet. Is that your final answer? Then your own words condemn for perverting scriptures! Who was Jesus taking to?

John 10:25​

“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.”

THEN Jesus said: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

You did add: "Others have also heard and either not understood or have understood and outright rejected the truth. (John 12:48):

You still are not getting the truth! Listen carefully: "My sheep hear my voice"~ You MUST be a sheep before you can hear: this truth is taught all through the word of God, not just here. God does not take goats and make them sheep, you are born a sheep, maybe lost, nevertheless a sheep ~ chosen before the foundation of the world to be a sheep, never a goat. ONLY by nature are we children of wrath, but not so by God's election of grace! Please consider Jesus' words:

John 10:16​

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

There's is no chance that a sheep will NOT hear, for Christ said clearly they shall hear. This goes against what you are teaching, meaning you are not teaching the truth, not sure if this bother you or not, I trust it does in all sincerity.

Agreed and thank you.

Agreed

Well Doug we have had maybe no more than two or three exchanges, correct me if I'm wrong. Whether or not I can, and you ever admitting the same is another story.. Very seldom does this happens, we are here more so helping younger folks seeking the truth and to give testimony of God's truth, we have no power to convert others from the error of their way, only Lord can do this using our feeble, sometimes foolish efforts, but the power is His not ours.

Great post.

 

[civic]

This is circular reasoning and counter to scriptural descriptions.
You assume that God has arbitrarily selected certain people to be sheep as the axiom; a premise that has no explicit scriptural pronouncements or support. Then you correctly conclude that Christ’s sheep must necessarily believe, but not to become sheep but “because they are (already) sheep”! This is assuming the premise to be true to prove the premise is true.



Scripture clearly states that men must believe to be among his sheep, on this we agree. But the “sheep and goat” references are only at the judgment when the reality of our human choices in life are set in stone. (Matt 25:32-33)
Yes, it is fair to say that unbelievers are “goats” (not to be confused with G.O.A.T.s like Abraham) and believers are sheep under the shepherd’s care, but all believers were once unbelievers, and all are capable of becoming believers/sheep, for whomever among the unbelievers believe, become believers and thus sheep.

As to why, I don’t think it is a valid or necessary question, because it is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is the state of belief we are in at the judgment seat, not why we are what we are.

We know that all will be one or the other, but the only real why question is the differential of why some are condemned and others accepted? The answer, from the human perspective is belief or a lack thereof. This is the only relevant question. (The why/how question is always answered by “grace” from the divine perspective.)



Doug

Great post which is what Jesus teaches in John 3:16-18.

 

[praise_yeshua]

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Foreknowledge is purpose. God purposed to save all those who believe. Don't conflate "knowledge" of a future event in the context of your own understanding.

God didn't purpose for Peter what He wouldn't do for anyone else.

What God foresaw was that unless he had an election securing both angles and man, then none would have ever done so by their own power and strength, none. Why, for God alone is immutable and cannot be tempted with sin and be overcome by evil. This is an attribute that God alone possess..

God crafted salvation. It wouldn't exist without God. Stop extending that fact to meet your own goal of excluding others from this process.

So, my position is supported by the testimony of the scriptures, and no greater witness can one have than God's witness of the truth.

1st John 5:9​

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.”

Then why are you receiving the testimony of man?

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

So WHO did you receive such from? I've heard what you say before you've ever said it. I heard it from men. You're referencing traditions of men.

Christ said to Peter:

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Ah. Peter decided to listen to God and not all those witnesses that were lying to him. All Truth has its origins from God. Lies have their origins from Satan.

And this divine revelation is the foundation upon which Christ is building his church; so to deny this necessity of divine revelation that is absolutely necessary before one can believe is to fat out reject God's testimony of the truth. If either of us is guilty of circular reasoning it would be you. Your reasoning has no solid proof to support your assumption, as the sum of your position ~ as the commercial goes..."show me your facts" to support your reasoning.

I don't see any facts that support your conclusion. I see facts that can actually be used to destroy your conclusions. I mean utterly destroy your conclusions.

Men preach to other men this "revelation". You didn't hear directly from God. You received that revelation from men that heard from God.

Sometimes you hear lies from Satan. Not God. So what you received that you haven't received from another....

Now.... I'll stop right here.....

Finish the rest of what Paul wrote to those in Corinth.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Do you see how important it is for you to not just blindly quote what you do not understand.

Paul "begot" those at Corinth through the Gospel.

You would have us believe that God directly and Divinely called and elected you. Which isn't true at all.

What do you have that you didn't receive from another man?

According to Paul.... HE "begot" them.

Now. Deal with what it actually says and not what you heard from other men to contrary.

 

[TibiasDad]

We believe differently ~ Doug, some elect sheep may never come to believe for different reasons, but still are sheep~the likes of the mentally challenge; heathen where the gospel may have never been preached, those that died before they are able to believe, (no such doctrine as the age of accountability, since we were all accountable in Adam), etc.

Romans 10 disagrees with you:
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Paul, nor any other biblical figures, never speaks of people being the Elect prior to believing.

Your assertions sound very much like hyper-Calvinistic objections that William Carey, the Father of modern missions, had to deal with when he was told, in so many words, that if God has elected someone to salvation, he will be saved; so there is no need to preach the gospel to them.

As for those who have never heard, God’s judgment is perfect and he will deal justly with all people.

Doug