Eternal Security

[Doug Brents]

I wasn't able to locate anything here on this topic so I figured I might as well Get the ball rolling. Let me ask this question.

Is there anything keeping you from accepting God’s free gift of salvation right now? Hopefully your answer is no. If not then the Holy Spirit is not done with you yet. Since salvation is a gift of God, there's nothing that we do to earn it, Do you think there's anything we could do to lose it? Would God take back a gift that he has freely given? Know this, God’s grace toward you did not stop with forgiveness. His grace will continue to be poured out on you forever! That was His purpose from the very beginning.

This truth underscores the depth of the love that moved God to begin with. Unlike the nature lover who stops to rescue an injured bird, God’s love goes beyond pity. He did not save us just to keep us out of hell. He saved us to guarantee an eternal relationship with us, a relationship in which we would continue to be the recipients of His kindness.

A question: “Do you believe you have the power to block the purposes of God?” Once God has made up His mind He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God. Good luck with that one!

God has plans for all of us who were dead in our trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver’s seat and God is just a passenger.

One final thought, is that we Can not undo what God has already done. We're just not that powerful.

Sorry to jump into this so late, and I don't know if this question has already been addressed since I have not read the whole thread yet, but please allow me to make a few statements, and maybe a few questions.

When Israel was sent to take possession of the Promised Land (the Land), did God give the Land to them freely without their "earning" it? The answer most certainly is: Yes. The Land was theirs before they took possession of it, even from the time they crossed the Red Sea and sent the spies to look over the Land. Yet they did not have possession of it, nor did they have the benefit of owning it for another 40+ years. They had to conquer the people that lived there, and they were given very specific instructions on how to take the Land.

Specifically, let's look at the taking of Jericho. They were commanded to walk around the city one (1) time in silence for six (6) days, and on the seventh (7th) day to march seven (7) times in silence and then to sound the trumpet and yell and shout. Did yelling and sounding the trumpet cause the wall to fall? No. Did it "earn" the city? No. These were things that God commanded them to do as conditions for taking the city, and God caused the walls to fall and the city to be taken.

These are conditions placed upon the reception of the Land, yet the Land was a gift to them, an inheritance, that they did not earn, nor did they deserve. If they had not done these things, the Land would have still belonged to them, but they would not have received it to use and benefit from. As with AI, when they sinned and did not do what God told them to do, they failed to take possession of the Land.

So too with NT salvation. There is no action man can take that will "deserve" or "earn" salvation. But God, while we were still sinners, sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin to reconcile us to Himself. We do not deserve the life of Jesus. We could never earn the life of another man, let alone the life of God made flesh. Yet He gave us that gift, and then gave us conditions for the reception of that gift.

Among those conditions (but not the only condition) is repentance. Repentance is not a one time thing, but a continual turning from our sinful nature to put on the nature of Christ. This continual repentance must continue throughout the rest of the person's life, and is a condition for actually receiving the reward after we die. In 1 Cor 9:27, Paul tells us that he continually works to keep his sinful nature in check so that, after preaching and teaching and bringing many to Christ, he may not find himself rejected from receiving the prize.

 

[Ahar]

Exactly very well said. And why would anyone leave the Promised Land ? And 70 AD when the Romans drove the Jews out of Israel and they were scattered all through the world. It may have looked like the end. But in 1948 God brought them back. I believe the promise God made to Abraham is still in effect, as are the promises Jesus made to us about our salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

Exactly very well said. And why would anyone leave the Promised Land ? And 70 AD when the Romans drove the Jews out of Israel and they were scattered all through the world. It may have looked like the end. But in 1948 God brought them back. I believe the promise God made to Abraham is still in effect, as are the promises Jesus made to us about our salvation.

Why would they leave the Land? Because God had taken it from them. Deut 11:26-28 says that there is a blessing and a curse laid before Israel. The blessing if they continue to follow God, and the curse if they turn to other gods. What happened to them after the days of Solomon? 1 Kings 11:4 says that Solomon turned to other gods in his old age, and his sons continued this trend to the point that, after many generations, God delivered first one part of the divided kingdom into bondage and then the rest. After many years, they did return to the Land, but then they defied and murdered Jesus, so the Land was totally, and I believe finally, taken from them (see also 1 Kings 9:6-9).

Today, the promise is still active, but not for the Land in the Middle East, but in Heaven. And the promise is not to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but to the Spiritual descendants through Christ (Rom 9:6-8, Rom 11:17-24, Gal 6L16, Heb 13:14).

 

[Grace ambassador]

op: Eternal Security?

Yes, but, just in case anyone ( Nosas ) missed post # 56

Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry to jump into this so late, and I don't know if this question has already been addressed since I have not read the whole thread yet, but please allow me to make a few statements, and maybe a few questions.

When Israel was sent to take possession of the Promised Land (the Land), did God give the Land to them freely without their "earning" it? The answer most certainly is: Yes. The Land was theirs before they took possession of it, even from the time they crossed the Red Sea and sent the spies to look over the Land. Yet they did not have possession of it, nor did they have the benefit of owning it for another 40+ years. They had to conquer the people that lived there, and they were given very specific instructions on how to take the Land.

Specifically, let's look at the taking of Jericho. They were commanded to walk around the city one (1) time in silence for six (6) days, and on the seventh (7th) day to march seven (7) times in silence and then to sound the trumpet and yell and shout. Did yelling and sounding the trumpet cause the wall to fall? No. Did it "earn" the city? No. These were things that God commanded them to do as conditions for taking the city, and God caused the walls to fall and the city to be taken.

These are conditions placed upon the reception of the Land, yet the Land was a gift to them, an inheritance, that they did not earn, nor did they deserve. If they had not done these things, the Land would have still belonged to them, but they would not have received it to use and benefit from. As with AI, when they sinned and did not do what God told them to do, they failed to take possession of the Land.

So too with NT salvation. There is no action man can take that will "deserve" or "earn" salvation. But God, while we were still sinners, sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin to reconcile us to Himself. We do not deserve the life of Jesus. We could never earn the life of another man, let alone the life of God made flesh. Yet He gave us that gift, and then gave us conditions for the reception of that gift.

Among those conditions (but not the only condition) is repentance. Repentance is not a one time thing, but a continual turning from our sinful nature to put on the nature of Christ. This continual repentance must continue throughout the rest of the person's life, and is a condition for actually receiving the reward after we die. In 1 Cor 9:27, Paul tells us that he continually works to keep his sinful nature in check so that, after preaching and teaching and bringing many to Christ, he may not find himself rejected from receiving the prize.

Well Christ is the Covenant when it comes to Salvation Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
And Christ has kept and obeyed all the conditions necessary so the people will become beneficiaries of all the Salvic blessings of the Covenanr. They will have spiritual eyes given and open, be brought out of the spiritual prison of unbelief and more. He will also give them repentance Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This israel includes Gentiles that will receive repentance Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Christ has fulfilled all the conditions, and will bring them safely to Glory Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well Christ is the Covenant when it comes to Salvation Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
And Christ has kept and obeyed all the conditions necessary so the people will become beneficiaries of all the Salvic blessings of the Covenanr. They will have spiritual eyes given and open, be brought out of the spiritual prison of unbelief and more. He will also give them repentance Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Not sure I get what your point is.
My point was that just as God promised the Land to the nation of Israel yet gave them a warning that He would take the Land away from them if they failed to keep the Law of Moses, He also gave the Church (Spiritual Israel) the warning that we would lose our salvation if we did not continue in repentance and keeping of His New Covenant the rest of our lives (until the end). Thus we can lose our salvation.

This israel includes Gentiles that will receive repentance Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Christ has fulfilled all the conditions, and will bring them safely to Glory Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Absolutely Spiritual Israel includes many Gentiles. In fact, today there are far more Gentiles in Israel than there are Jews. But that does not make it any less Israel, because the root into which the Gentiles are grafted in the root of Abraham to whom the promise was originally given.

 

[brightfame52]

Not sure I get what your point is.
My point was that just as God promised the Land to the nation of Israel yet gave them a warning that He would take the Land away from them if they failed to keep the Law of Moses, He also gave the Church (Spiritual Israel) the warning that we would lose our salvation if we did not continue in repentance and keeping of His New Covenant the rest of our lives (until the end). Thus we can lose our salvation.

Absolutely Spiritual Israel includes many Gentiles. In fact, today there are far more Gentiles in Israel than there are Jews. But that does not make it any less Israel, because the root into which the Gentiles are grafted in the root of Abraham to whom the promise was originally given.

All of Salvation is an eternal inheritance, conditioned on Christ, so its a sure , secure thing for the heirs Heb 6:17-19

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Christ kept all the conditions to obtain it for the heris, and bring them into the experience of it Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance

Its based on better promises, not conditional like israel national.

When you think about it, anyone who inherits an inheritance didnt meet any conditions at all, its bequeathed

 

[Doug Brents]

All of Salvation is an eternal inheritance, conditioned on Christ, so its a sure , secure thing for the heirs Heb 6:17-19

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Christ kept all the conditions to obtain it for the heris, and bring them into the experience of it Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance

Its based on better promises, not conditional like israel national.

When you think about it, anyone who inherits an inheritance didnt meet any conditions at all, its bequeathed

Obviously you haven't seen "Brewster's Millions" or read the book (or seen the movie) "The Ultimate Gift".
There are frequently conditions in wills. A will might say you must be present at the "reading of the will" to receive what was left to you. A will might say you get control of the business so long as you post a profit of exactly $.01 on Christmas day. A will might say you must live in the house for a minimum of one year before you can sell the house or otherwise dispose of the property.
And if any of these conditions are not met, you lose the inheritance. The same is true with salvation and the conditions stated in Scripture.
Heb 6:4-6
Matt: 6:15
Matt: 19:21-35
Matt: 10:22-32
Luke 12:41-46
1 Cor. 15:1-2
Colossians 1:22-23
Hebrews 3:6, 14
Rev. 2:10, 25-36, 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22

All of these passages give conditions under which we can lose our salvation.
Now, brightflame, I am not going to get into a long drawn out discussion about this where I post something new and you post the same response over and over as we did in the other forum. Respond with new content and Scripture properly taken in context in each message or we are going to cut this discussion off.

 

[brightfame52]

Obviously you haven't seen "Brewster's Millions" or read the book (or seen the movie) "The Ultimate Gift".
There are frequently conditions in wills. A will might say you must be present at the "reading of the will" to receive what was left to you. A will might say you get control of the business so long as you post a profit of exactly $.01 on Christmas day. A will might say you must live in the house for a minimum of one year before you can sell the house or otherwise dispose of the property.
And if any of these conditions are not met, you lose the inheritance. The same is true with salvation and the conditions stated in Scripture.
Heb 6:4-6
Matt: 6:15
Matt: 19:21-35
Matt: 10:22-32
Luke 12:41-46
1 Cor. 15:1-2
Colossians 1:22-23
Hebrews 3:6, 14
Rev. 2:10, 25-36, 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22

All of these passages give conditions under which we can lose our salvation.
Now, brightflame, I am not going to get into a long drawn out discussion about this where I post something new and you post the same response over and over as we did in the other forum. Respond with new content and Scripture properly taken in context in each message or we are going to cut this discussion off.

Christ met all conditions. The inheritance is bequeathed upon the chosen heirs.

 

[Doug Brents]

Christ met all conditions. The inheritance is bequeathed upon the chosen heirs.

Ahh, so it's the old story of the child who asked the minister, "What do I have to do to be saved?" and the minister replied, "There is nothing you can do. Jesus did it all on the cross." Is that what you are saying?

Then why, when the Jews asked Peter and the other Apostles on Pentecost, "What must we do?" (Acts 2:37), did Peter answer, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." I choose to believe Scripture over what man says. If Jesus did everything that needs doing, why are we given something to do? Now I am not saying that Jesus' death and resurrection did not provide everything that is necessary for salvation to be received. I am saying, as Scripture does, that to receive the gift that He completely paid for we must exhibit our faith (Eph 2:8-9) and obey the Gospel (2 Thes 1:6-8).

 

[brightfame52]

Ahh, so it's the old story of the child who asked the minister, "What do I have to do to be saved?" and the minister replied, "There is nothing you can do. Jesus did it all on the cross." Is that what you are saying?

Then why, when the Jews asked Peter and the other Apostles on Pentecost, "What must we do?" (Acts 2:37), did Peter answer, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." I choose to believe Scripture over what man says. If Jesus did everything that needs doing, why are we given something to do? Now I am not saying that Jesus' death and resurrection did not provide everything that is necessary for salvation to be received. I am saying, as Scripture does, that to receive the gift that He completely paid for we must exhibit our faith (Eph 2:8-9) and obey the Gospel (2 Thes 1:6-8).

People ask questions because they dont know. Christ still performed all conditions so that the inheritance will be bequeathed upon the heirs. The inheritance was given by promise, Gal 3:17-18

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

[makesends]

Now why would that be? I'm not into open theism but they don't believe God is omniscient in the way that you say but they do believe he is omnipotent. I believe God is omniscient but I don't believe it's connected to him being omnipotent which I believe he is by the way. So why do you say what you do?

I find Open Theism somewhat refreshing, in that they don't claim God knows everything and then turn around and contradict it, the way some freewillers do. They seem to think that God created time, (which I agree with), which trumps even God's knowledge, (which to me is ludicrous and irrational). But at least they are consistent, and needn't parse their words to explain away omniscience. They say that God can't know the future, because it hasn't happened yet. (Ok, yes, that is not a quote. But I would be happy to provide a reason why that is bunk.)

Sorry I don't follow your reasoning. So you say because he knew things would come to pass that's a given he wanted it to be that way. No. What's a given is he intended for man to have free will and choice NOT that he wanted the fruits of evil in the earth. Let's put it simply. LOVE doesn't want evil. To want evil is evil itself for evil hurts people and LOVE surely doesn't delight in seeing people destroyed.

I suppose you won't follow it, since you assume as basic that God doesn't know all things.

But if one assumes that when God created, all God had in mind is this world, and not the life to come, and, furthermore, that God risked failure in this grand experiment, and is working hard to make things work out ok, and that he is already on plan C or D, but that he isn't, generally, particular about much of anything; and if one assumes that no matter whatever else must be true, 'freewill' must trump all other notions, then they will see Scriptures from the POV of "where do I fit in" or, "this is about me and what I must do", and other such false notions.

All readers will assess your position and make that determinization themselves as they will with me too.

You said that I acknowledged that my beliefs did not originate in the Bible; my statement was that you are wrong —I did not acknowledge that. But I will acknowledge that every one of the Scriptures that I take to demonstrate, promote, support or prove what I believe, has been claimed to mean other things by those bent on self-determinism, even when they can only assert it, and not logically support it. In the end, it seems, one's presuppositions determine much of what they believe. This, by the way, is true for all sorts of things —not just Bible interpretation— even when one can't explain away the contradictions. So I usually disguise the Scriptural quotes with reasoning concerning what Scripture does say, such as that God is omnipotent and knows all things, and chooses whom he will save.

 

[makesends]

It seemed to me like you said "Scripture says" and then follow that with a bunch of human reasoning and philosophy trying to deduce how the attributes of God must necessarily interface with creation.

Scripture does indeed teach free will:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/yes-calvinists%E2%80%94free-will-is-in-the-bible.98/

Yes. Though I usually say, "Scripture says that..." rather than, "Scripture says..." if I follow it with reasoning and philosophy (of which, by the way, Scripture does posit quite a bit.

Your link, by the way, proves nothing. Not sure why you imply it is a reference to some fact.

 

[Rockson]

I find Open Theism somewhat refreshing, in that they don't claim God knows everything and then turn around and contradict it, the way some freewillers do. They seem to think that God created time, (which I agree with), which trumps even God's knowledge, (which to me is ludicrous and irrational). But at least they are consistent, and needn't parse their words to explain away omniscience. They say that God can't know the future, because it hasn't happened yet.

As for me I'm not an open theist....I DO believe God knows the future before it occurs for a certain particular reason that I won't get into here. But open theists aren't totally void of making an interesting point though. Many are stressing God HAS to know the future that is from the standpoint of it being an absolute must. But what is God dealing with however. He's always dealing with reality. Is the future a real place that is right now as we speak? Could there be places where God is not in?

Most all would say no but ask this....is God in the place of the universe of Star Wars? No. And why? Because it does not exist. It's not a reality, So is it a limitation of God not to be in a place which isn't real? If the future is real, I mean right now as I'm speaking that would have to mean what.....that there's two of me existing at the self same moment the future me and the me of the now.

So I guess this prompts the open theist to consider the way that they do. There's only one in the realm of reality which I think is there reasoning. I do believe God knows the future and believe I can rightly say he's known it all the time.

(Ok, yes, that is not a quote. But I would be happy to provide a reason why that is bunk

Sure go for it.

I suppose you won't follow it, since you assume as basic that God doesn't know all things.

But I do believe God knows the future by virtue of a certain fact but I don't believe that translates into as a must that he wanted everyone and thing to turn out the way that they did. That's what Calvinists do.

 

[Dizerner]

Yes. Though I usually say, "Scripture says that..." rather than, "Scripture says..." if I follow it with reasoning and philosophy (of which, by the way, Scripture does posit quite a bit.

So typical of Calvinists to use philosophy to interpret the Scripture but criticize anyone else who does the exact same thing.

There's no way to get a "pure" meaning from "direct" Bible words and avoid reasoning, so why do people act like they "just believe the Bible"?

I'll tell you why—it gives them a cheap debating trick that sounds pious.

Your link, by the way, proves nothing. Not sure why you imply it is a reference to some fact.

This reply, by the way, proves nothing.

This is not honest interaction, and it's very disappointing.

 

[charismaticlady]

Amen to that

Using this post to test. The two-tone threads are much better to find where to type my response! Good job! And I like this width too.

 

[makesends]

As for me I'm not an open theist....I DO believe God knows the future before it occurs for a certain particular reason that I won't get into here. But open theists aren't totally void of making an interesting point though. Many are stressing God HAS to know the future that is from the standpoint of it being an absolute must. But what is God dealing with however. He's always dealing with reality. Is the future a real place that is right now as we speak?

Reality is whatever God says it is. God is even above that. He is not subject to it, since it comes from him. OUR notions of reality, and our language/reasoning concerning reality only encompass what makes sense to our point of view. "The future is as real as the present is, as we shall soon see", makes as much sense as to ask if the future IS at all. Our words tangle our thinking.

To say, "The future exists", is only as technically incorrect as to say, "The past exists". But the God spoke both into existence, "instantly" (I like to say). But that is not therefore grounds to say that either one exists "right now".

Could there be places where God is not in?

Define "places", here. The fact we can imagine some fool self-contradictory notions doesn't mean that God is limited or powerless concerning them. It just means they are fool self-contradictory notions.

Most all would say no but ask this....is God in the place of the universe of Star Wars? No. And why? Because it does not exist. It's not a reality, So is it a limitation of God not to be in a place which isn't real?

Of course not! Do we really attribute this much substance to our constructions? God needn't submit to our foolishness. He is not about us.

If the future is real, I mean right now as I'm speaking that would have to mean what.....that there's two of me existing at the self same moment the future me and the me of the now.

For what it is worth, neither of you are what you will be, which God spoke into existence, I like to say. We are not yet complete persons. Not until we see him as he is, will we become what he spoke with a word.

So I guess this prompts the open theist to consider the way that they do. There's only one in the realm of reality which I think is there reasoning. I do believe God knows the future and believe I can rightly say he's known it all the time.

Of course he does. My favorite way is, "because he created it".

Sure go for it.

It is bunk because God is above all this. He is not subject to his creation, as we are. For him the past and future are tools. We are stuck in the present, because we live here. Time is not the absolute we like to attribute to it. We say "we are" because that is all we can see. But God sees the finished product.

But I do believe God knows the future by virtue of a certain fact but I don't believe that translates into as a must that he wanted everyone and thing to turn out the way that they did. That's what Calvinists do.

Your view, like the other Arminianistic views, considers our human view reality. But our view is only a view. God created the beginning, and the end. The time between is how we get there. You can't fit God to that temporal view.

Consider the possibility that as you arrive in Heaven, you will see Adam, Methusaleh, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, David, Peter and Paul etc. all arriving just as you do, spoken into existence complete persons. See? We don't really even know what existence is.

 

[makesends]

So typical of Calvinists to use philosophy to interpret the Scripture but criticize anyone else who does the exact same thing.

There's no way to get a "pure" meaning from "direct" Bible words and avoid reasoning, so why do people act like they "just believe the Bible"?

I'll tell you why—it gives them a cheap debating trick that sounds pious.

Yet you admit to doing the same thing. But all I said was essentially the same thing you are saying here. Reasoning is unavoidable in interpreting Scripture. Yet you criticized me for it.

This reply, by the way, proves nothing.

This is not honest interaction, and it's very disappointing.

You provided a link to an OP, without even showing how that OP is relevant. A lot of people do the same thing with Bible references, as if they have proved something.

 

[Dizerner]

Yet you admit to doing the same thing. But all I said was essentially the same thing you are saying here. Reasoning is unavoidable in interpreting Scripture. Yet you criticized me for it.

You provided a link to an OP, without even showing how that OP is relevant. A lot of people do the same thing with Bible references, as if they have proved something.

Are you Howie from carm?

You really sound like Howie.

 

[Rockson]

To say, "The future exists", is only as technically incorrect as to say, "The past exists". But the God spoke both into existence, "instantly" (I like to say). But that is not therefore grounds to say that either one exists "right now".

Sorry but you're all over the map and your words don't make coherent sense. You can't have he spoke the past, future into existence "instantly" and turn around and say that's not grounds to say either exists right now. That's mere gibberish defined as unintelligible or meaningless language: