civic
Well-known member
Well stated
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ahar
- Start date
Rapture Bound
Active member
my bad ... replied to the wrong post and can't figure out how to delete my post.Well stated
Rapture Bound
Active member
You said, "The enemy is constantly trying to wear down our defenses and corrupt our minds with temptation and rationalization and false teaching—anything to confuse our thinking about God and His purposes for our lives."
Yep, with the biggest false teaching being that some, despite being genuine, blood-bought sons and daughters of God, will ultimately perish eternally in the Lake of Fire. All a person has to do is read the many posts asserting that will this indeed happen to some. Funny thing about that is all who do so are absolutely confident that they will somehow "make the final cut" and enter into Heaven ... which inevitably makes it a "musical chairs" scenario ... too many people , and not enough chairs when the music stops playing [and life is over].
The only logical way out of their horrendous dilemma is to claim that although it's possible for some born again individuals to lose/forfeit their salvation ... none actually will ... but wait ... by saying that, they would actually be teaching what the scriptures actually assert [i.e. - the OSAS Arminian position - a.k.a. in some circles as 4-point Arminianism] - lol
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Obadiah
Well-known member
Your life will surely show it
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're saved and you know it,
Then your life will surely show it,
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
2. Stomp your feet
3. Say "AMEN"
4. DO ALL THREE
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
If you're saved and you know it,
Then your life will surely show it,
If you're saved and you know it, clap your hands!
2. Stomp your feet
3. Say "AMEN"
4. DO ALL THREE
dwight92070
Well-known member
There's no indication in the prodigal son story that he was a believer to begin with. In fact the theme of Luke 15 is lost people getting saved. First, a man loses one of his sheep and leaves the other 99 while he searches for it until he finds it. Then a woman loses one of her 10 silver coins until she finds it. Finally the prodigal leaves his home and squanders his father's wealth on sinful living. When he finally returns to his father, the father said: " ... this brother of yours WAS DEAD AND HAS BEGUN TO LIVE and HE WAS LOST AND HAS BEEN FOUND. So that is not the falling away that we have been talking about.
You say that those who don't return were not saved in the first place, which is the standard OSAS answer for any who fall away, whether they actually were saved or not. You can't possibly know that every person who falls away was never saved to begin with. I believe that that is true with some but I think many fell away who were true believers. If it's not possible for true believers to fall away, then there would be no need for the multiple warnings against it.
Being born again, although it is a real miraculous experience when we get saved, is a metaphor for what happens at the time of salvation. It is likened to being physically born a 2nd time, only it's a spiritual birth. Actual birth cannot be reversed. A baby that is born cannot be unborn. A spiritual birth, however, can be walked away from, which again is why the scripture warns against it so often.
We have been adopted into God's family through faith in Jesus. Just like the new birth, adoption too can be rejected and walked away from. The Holy Spirit comes to us as a pledge or a down payment of our future inheritance. He comes to us at the same time that we pledge to follow Jesus for the rest of our life. God will not break his pledge, but unfortunately, we CAN break our pledge to Him. Just like when we promise to be faithful to our wife until death - but many break that vow, so too we can break our promise to God and many do.
Ephesians is addressed "To the saints who are at Ephesus AND WHO ARE FAITHFUL IN CHRIST JESUS:" Ephesians 1: 1 There's ABSOLUTELY NO PROMISE IN THE BOOK OF EPHESIANS GIVEN to saints who no longer remain faithful.
You are right that nothing and no one can separate believers from the love of Christ. Romans 8 speaks of those of us who are IN CHRIST, who walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh, who by the Spirit are putting to death the deeds of the body, who are led by the Spirit of God, and who love God. If we decide we don't want to believe in Jesus anymore, and we begin again to walk in the flesh, and no longer love God, WE ARE SEPARATING OURSELVES FROM THE LOVE OF GOD.
Did you notice in Paul's list of all the things that CANNOT SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, that we ourselves, ARE NOT LISTED. And the last verse of the chapter reminds us again that these promises are for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord - that means we are abiding in Him, not rejecting Him or walking away from Him. There is no promise for that.
Obadiah
Well-known member
“Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’”—Luke 15:21.
God’s title of “Abba Father” is only found referenced in the Bible three separate times, in the passages of Romans 8:15, Mark 14:36, and Galatians 4:6, which are all in the New Testament. Only two speakers utter these words in these passages: Jesus and the apostle Paul.
Galatians 4:6: “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba Father!’”
I would definitely say the parable of the Prodigal Son is about a saved wayward believer that comes to his senses and returns. It reminds us that living our own way apart from the Father leads to nothing. Sin does not satisfy. Sin exposes our need for God even more!
God's love for us does not depend on our faithfulness; it is unconditional. He loved us while we were still sinners. Though we are hard-headed and do not remain faithful, God is still our faithful and loving Father.
God’s title of “Abba Father” is only found referenced in the Bible three separate times, in the passages of Romans 8:15, Mark 14:36, and Galatians 4:6, which are all in the New Testament. Only two speakers utter these words in these passages: Jesus and the apostle Paul.
Galatians 4:6: “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba Father!’”
I would definitely say the parable of the Prodigal Son is about a saved wayward believer that comes to his senses and returns. It reminds us that living our own way apart from the Father leads to nothing. Sin does not satisfy. Sin exposes our need for God even more!
God's love for us does not depend on our faithfulness; it is unconditional. He loved us while we were still sinners. Though we are hard-headed and do not remain faithful, God is still our faithful and loving Father.
dwight92070
Well-known member
The OSAS people don't seem to realize that if their doctrine is correct, then every person who becomes born again LOSES THEIR FREE WILL. They are no longer FREE to make the choice to leave Christ - they are now FORCED to remain a Christian whether they like it or not.
Those of us who reject OSAS do not believe that God FORCES us to follow Jesus. We believe that WE STILL HAVE A FREE WILL to VOLUNTARILY FOLLOW JESUS - or to reject Him and no longer follow Him.
JESUS HIMSELF had "MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES" WITHDRAW FROM HIM AND NOT WALK WITH HIM ANYMORE. John 6:66 What was Jesus' response? Look at verse 67: "So Jesus said to the twelve 'You do not want to go away also, do you?' " He gave them the freedom to choose to leave. He didn't force them to stay.
He did not tell them: "Those disciples who left Me think that they are rejecting eternal life, but really I will force them to go to heaven, even though they don't want to. Also, you twelve, don't think that you can really leave Me - I will force you to stay with Me.
Those of us who reject OSAS do not believe that God FORCES us to follow Jesus. We believe that WE STILL HAVE A FREE WILL to VOLUNTARILY FOLLOW JESUS - or to reject Him and no longer follow Him.
JESUS HIMSELF had "MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES" WITHDRAW FROM HIM AND NOT WALK WITH HIM ANYMORE. John 6:66 What was Jesus' response? Look at verse 67: "So Jesus said to the twelve 'You do not want to go away also, do you?' " He gave them the freedom to choose to leave. He didn't force them to stay.
He did not tell them: "Those disciples who left Me think that they are rejecting eternal life, but really I will force them to go to heaven, even though they don't want to. Also, you twelve, don't think that you can really leave Me - I will force you to stay with Me.
civic
Well-known member
None of those disciples were born again until Pentecost.
The confusion arises because few understand the truth of two salvations. It is regrettable that "salvation" has come to mean going to heaven when you die. The gospel is "of the kingdom", for now, not just for heaven.
The first salvation is the spirit. This is what died as a result of Adam's rebellion. The spirit is the real "us". When we are born again, it is the part of us that is made alive. Our spirit is eternal and cannot die. The soul is a different story. It has a life of its own, aka "the natural man". It was given to Adam temporarily, so that he could make a choice. We realise, of course, that Adam made the worst possible choice. He died, but not physically. His soul was very much active. And this is the realm that God deals with throughout out Christian lives.
The born again spirit is a blank page and must be instructed by revelation of God's word. The mind was programmed according to the world - education, often parents, peers and whatever media exposure we have. Mostly what we learn is antichrist in nature. So we need to experience what James and Peter calls "The salvation of the soul".
The salvation of the soul has a number of facets. We need to be delivered from besetting sin. We need our mind renewed so that it does not argue with the truth of God's word. We need our emotions to be under our control instead of emotion ruling us. We need our rebellious will to be brought into harmony with God's will. The degree to which we permit God to change us is the degree to which we will be truly spiritual people. For a rare few, the process is relatively quick, even if painful. Others make little progress even in a lifetime. Everyone should experience some change over time.
This is a big subject and a few words does not do justice to it. I hope it's helped at least a little.
The first salvation is the spirit. This is what died as a result of Adam's rebellion. The spirit is the real "us". When we are born again, it is the part of us that is made alive. Our spirit is eternal and cannot die. The soul is a different story. It has a life of its own, aka "the natural man". It was given to Adam temporarily, so that he could make a choice. We realise, of course, that Adam made the worst possible choice. He died, but not physically. His soul was very much active. And this is the realm that God deals with throughout out Christian lives.
The born again spirit is a blank page and must be instructed by revelation of God's word. The mind was programmed according to the world - education, often parents, peers and whatever media exposure we have. Mostly what we learn is antichrist in nature. So we need to experience what James and Peter calls "The salvation of the soul".
The salvation of the soul has a number of facets. We need to be delivered from besetting sin. We need our mind renewed so that it does not argue with the truth of God's word. We need our emotions to be under our control instead of emotion ruling us. We need our rebellious will to be brought into harmony with God's will. The degree to which we permit God to change us is the degree to which we will be truly spiritual people. For a rare few, the process is relatively quick, even if painful. Others make little progress even in a lifetime. Everyone should experience some change over time.
This is a big subject and a few words does not do justice to it. I hope it's helped at least a little.
dwight92070
Well-known member
It doesn't change any of the principles. We know from Paul's writings that those who lived by the same faith that Abraham had in God, in the Old Testament were inheritors of salvation. Those who did not, were not inheritors of salvation. In fact Hebrews hall of faith shows us that we can see people of faith (and therefore those who would possess salvation) all the way back to Abel - and most likely Adam and Eve.
Anyway, when those disciples in question heard the gospel from Jesus Himself, they had the opportunity to receive or reject it. Originally they accepted it, but when Jesus started talking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, they left Him and HIs promises.
But what do OSAS people do with the fact that their doctrine takes away FREE WILL from anyone who gets born again? OSAS people are no longer allowed to voluntarily reject the gospel because so-called eternal security (not a Bible term) FORCES them to stay saved, whether they want that or not.
civic
Well-known member
more unproven assertions. I would encourage you to read and believe the bible regarding Eternal Life as opposed to conditional or temporal life that you espouse. Jesus teaching is clear on the topic as its never ending life- forever. Those He gives eternal life He raises on the last day to be with Him.
As you like to say:
I encourage you to read the Bible with fresh eyes and ask God to show you were you might be deceived. Maybe pray about it and fast for 40 days like Jesus instead of only a short time like a week. Then you might get some clarity directly from Jesus Himself.
God bless!
civic
Well-known member
Absolutely. And you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Whom the Son has set free is free indeed !
dwight92070
Well-known member
God saves whom He will and only whom He will? There is no scripture that actually says that. On the contrary, there are tons of scripture that say the opposite.Absolutely. And you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Whom the Son has set free is free indeed !
John 3:15 " ... so that WHOEVER believes will in Him have eternal life."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Romans 10:13 "WHOEVER will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is ... NOT WISHING for ANY TO PERISH, but FOR ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE."
John 7:37 "IF ANYONE is thirsty, let him come to ME and drink, HE WHO BELIEVES in Me, as the scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."
Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING."
Ray
Member
Let me see If I have this right. God numbered every hair on our head and yet He's unable to keep us saved.
6 “What is the price of five sparrows—two copper coins? Yet God does not forget a single one of them. 7 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. Luke 12:6-7
I don't think so because God cares for all of His creation especially the ones that have accepted the salvation His son died to give them. He will never leave you or forsake you, that's our eternal security.
My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous to me.
6 “What is the price of five sparrows—two copper coins? Yet God does not forget a single one of them. 7 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. Luke 12:6-7
I don't think so because God cares for all of His creation especially the ones that have accepted the salvation His son died to give them. He will never leave you or forsake you, that's our eternal security.
My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous to me.
Ray
Member
You can call me Ray.
I crack myself up.
Diserner
Well-known member
Now, now, that's a straw man.
"Unable to keep us saved" by eliminating our free will?
Are you a double predestination Calvinist?
Then why isn't God able to SAVE you WITHOUT you choosing to trust on Jesus?
Oh, ho-ho, he isn't "ABLE" to do that, huh?
I believe God is ABLE to keep me—but also REQUIRES me to TRUST him on a continuous basis.
Then you are born already saved.
You don't need to ever "trust" in Jesus, that is a PREPOSTEROUS INSULT TO THE POWER OF THE CROSS.
ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION is the only logical thing left for you.
No need to ever accept the Work of Christ, for that is INSULTING its power.
Rapture Bound
Active member
You stated, "But what do OSAS people do with the fact that their doctrine takes away FREE WILL from anyone who gets born again? OSAS people are no longer allowed to voluntarily reject the gospel because so-called eternal security (not a Bible term) FORCES them to stay saved, whether they want that or not."
It seems to me that your misunderstanding here may originate mainly from encountering only those who defend the OSAS position from the erroneous 5-point Calvinist perspective. In other words, if regeneration precedes faith as the Calvinist claims, then a person simply could not possess free moral agency ... no matter how hard the Calvinist tries to explain that fact away. Now, I can't speak for every person out there who holds to a non 5-point Calvinist OSAS position, but many OSAS Arminians, including myself, would clarify your misunderstanding as follows :
Every genuine, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, believer will naturally or organically desire [as opposed to being overridden by God] to serve and please their Creator and Redeemer as a result of the new nature they received when they first placed their trust in Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 5:17].
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 :
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be [preserved blameless] unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also [will] do it.
As new creatures in Christ, they receive hearts that are compatible or malleable... hearts that will be responsive to the various means that God utilizes for their preservation. Therefore, man's free moral agency [although not viewed in an unlimited sense] exists both prior and subsequent to regeneration.
God's promises pertaining to the New Covenant :
Jeremiah 32:40, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."
Ezekiel 36:26-27 :
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Also, the new heart/nature that every believer received at their new birth was received as a result of an unforced choice to place their faith in Christ's atoning work. The fact that a person possessed a choice in the matter certainly doesn't diminish the Sovereignty of God as the Calvinist falsely assumes ... but rather establishes it, that is, God Sovereignly granted/willed it.
The decision that they made to receive God's offered salvation carried with it eternal implications ... and I'm very confident that not a single genuine follower of Christ will ever regret the fact that they are now possessions of Jesus Christ ... eternally. Just as some decisions we make in the here and now carry with them irreversible ramifications in the physical realm, so it is in the spiritual. Aren't you glad that trusting in Christ's atoning work for your acceptance [justification] before God is one of them? I sure know I am!!
Obadiah
Well-known member
Eternal security is supported by the belief that God is so infinitely holy and good that there is nothing—not one thing—we can do to attain or maintain our salvation. Salvation in every facet is by grace. It is a gift from start to finish. God’s holiness is so far out of our league that even the best of our good deeds carries no weight in matters of salvation. The prophet proclaimed,
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Isaiah 64:6
People who want to do away with eternal security based on the argument that a sinning Christian is so offensive to the holiness of God that he cannot be tolerated both elevate the works of man and depreciate the holiness of God. How? By introducing into the salvation the necessity of good works to maintain one’s salvation.
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Isaiah 64:6
People who want to do away with eternal security based on the argument that a sinning Christian is so offensive to the holiness of God that he cannot be tolerated both elevate the works of man and depreciate the holiness of God. How? By introducing into the salvation the necessity of good works to maintain one’s salvation.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
