Eternal Security

[dwight92070]

I concur Ray

Let me see If I have this right. God numbered every hair on our head and yet He's unable to keep us saved.

Is your father able to make you love and respect him for the rest of your life? No, nor would he want to, because he wants your love and respect to come from your heart - willingly and freely.

Is your wife able to make you love and respect her for the rest of your life? No, nor would she want to, because she wants your love and respect to come from your heart voluntarily and joyfully.

You should not reduce being saved to just one experience of being born again, even though that's extremely important, just as it is important to experience the process of being sanctified the rest of our lives. Being saved means loving Him, respecting Him, until you die Yes, God IS able to make you love and respect Him for the rest of your life and He IS able to keep you saved or make you stay saved the rest of your life, but He would not want to, because He wants your voluntary love and respect until death.

This is not a question of God's ability - He's able to do ALL things.
It's a question of our willingness to follow and love Him for the rest of our lives.
Nor is it a question of our having the power to undo what Jesus did on the cross.
That's impossible to undo the awesome work of Jesus on the cross - and thank God that it is!!
But it's a question of our constant obedience.
Your doctrine doesn't require obedience, because you think you're guaranteed eternal life whether you obey or not.
But the truth is, if you stop obeying as a lifestyle, you can kiss that "guaranteed" eternal life goodbye.
Your doctrine says there's no conditions that must be met to receive God's promises.
EVERY promise in the Bible has a condition, even being born again - you must repent and put your faith in and obey Jesus.
You might remember the old hymn, "Trust and Obey". That's the Bible truth!!

6 “What is the price of five sparrows—two copper coins? Yet God does not forget a single one of them. 7 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. Luke 12:6-7

I don't think so because God cares for all of His creation especially the ones that have accepted the salvation His son died to give them. You'll never leave you or forsake you, that's our eternal security.

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous to me.

Dwight - On the contrary, you have a distorted view of God and a distorted view of what we believe.

1. We do not believe that's God's power or ability is limited in any way. But He's not a BULLY who FORCES us to stay saved, whether we want that or not. That's your distortion of God's character! Don't be fooled - MANY true believers have changed their minds about following Jesus and totally rejected Him.
2. We do not believe that we or anybody has the power to undo what Jesus did on the cross? NOR would we wish to! That's your distortion of our doctrine! Just because He has given us the FREE WILL to even leave Him, if we want to, that has NO effect on what He did on the cross.

 

[Ray]

Abiding in Jesus does not make you a Christian. What makes you a Christian is the new birth and the saving faith that is its fruit. Abiding is not the condition for becoming a child of God. Abiding is the consequence or the evidence or the fruit of being a disciple of Jesus. You become a Christian by faith, the evidence of which is that you abide or remain in your devotion and pursuit of Jesus and in your desire to learn from him and love him.

Genuine, saving faith is the sort that not only learns what he says but also loves it. Genuine faith displays its true character by producing in the heart of the individual a persevering attachment to Jesus.

Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” Luke 7:47

 

[dwight92070]

Amen

Is your father able to make you love and respect him for the rest of your life? No, nor would he want to, because he wants your love and respect to come from your heart - willingly and freely.

Is your wife able to make you love and respect her for the rest of your life? No, nor would she want to, because she wants your love and respect to come from your heart voluntarily and joyfully.

You should not reduce being saved to just one experience of being born again, even though that's extremely important, just as it is important to experience the process of being sanctified the rest of our lives. Being saved means loving Him, respecting Him, until you die Yes, God IS able to make you love and respect Him for the rest of your life and He IS able to keep you saved or make you stay saved the rest of your life, but He would not want to, because He wants your voluntary love and respect until death.

This is not a question of God's ability - He's able to do ALL things.
It's a question of our willingness to follow and love Him for the rest of our lives.
Nor is it a question of our having the power to undo what Jesus did on the cross.
That's impossible to undo the awesome work of Jesus on the cross - and thank God that it is!!
But it's a question of our constant obedience.
Your doctrine doesn't require obedience, because you think you're guaranteed eternal life whether you obey or not.
But the truth is, if you stop obeying as a lifestyle, you can kiss that "guaranteed" eternal life goodbye.
Your doctrine says there's no conditions that must be met to receive God's promises.
EVERY promise in the Bible has a condition, even being born again - you must repent and put your faith in and obey Jesus.
You might remember the old hymn, "Trust and Obey". That's the Bible truth!!


Dwight - On the contrary, you have a distorted view of God and a distorted view of what we believe.

1. We do not believe that's God's power or ability is limited in any way. But He's not a BULLY who FORCES us to stay saved, whether we want that or not. That's your distortion of God's character! Don't be fooled - MANY true believers have changed their minds about following Jesus and totally rejected Him.
2. We do not believe that we or anybody has the power to undo what Jesus did on the cross? NOR would we wish to! That's your distortion of our doctrine! Just because He has given us the FREE WILL to even leave Him, if we want to, that has NO effect on what He did on the cross.

Amen

Amen

Amen

Rapture Bound
You said "I'm very confident that not a single genuine follower of Christ will ever regret the fact that they are now possessions of Jesus Christ."

WOW, so here you are putting your trust and confidence in men, that they will NEVER regret their being saved and WILL REMAIN TRUE TO CHRIST UNTIL THEY DIE!! I thought we were supposed to trust God, not men!

You have more confidence in believers than even the apostle Paul!

"I am amazed that you are so quickly DESERTING Him Who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, ..." Galatians 1:6
"I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you IN VAIN." Galatians 4:11
1 Timothy 5:14-15 "Therefore I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; FOR SOME HAVE ALREADY TURNED ASIDE TO FOLLOW SATAN."
2 Timothy 4:10 " ... for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me ..."
1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some WILL FALL AWAY (APOSTACIZE) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, ..."
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall."
"Everyone who hears these words of mine, and does NOT DO them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; AND IT FELL - AND GREAT WAS ITS FALL"
Romans 11:22 "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF."

You might as well say that you are very confident that not a single married person who exchanged vows with their spouse will ever regret the fact that they are now one flesh and committed to each other until death!

To think that no genuine Christian will ever fall is to deny reality To think that every genuine believer from all of history has ALWAYS rejected the temptation to abandon Christ and disobey His teachings is recklessly naive. It denies the truth of the Bible. A multitude of true Christians have already defected and it will continue to be the case until Christ returns. The Bible itself tells us that over and over and warns us over and over.

 

[Ray]

Doubt or uncertainty isn’t always bad. It can be productive when it drives us into deeper prayer and study and investigation. If we are absolutely convinced about everything, beyond the shadow of a doubt, we face the even bigger problem of arrogance and pride. Doubt humbles. It reminds us that we are finite and that our knowledge is always subject to improvement and increase.

But...there's always a but, doubt can also be crippling in a way that undermines our relationship with God. If we are constantly doubting his Word or wondering if he will fulfill his promises or are cynical of his stated intentions, it’s hard to grow spiritually.

Some Christians are tormented by fears that God can’t be as good as he portrays himself in Scripture. Some experience a gnawing anxiety about whether Jesus was really God and whether he can be trusted with their lives. But the worst and most crippling kind of doubt is when children of God live in fear and anxiety over the forgiveness of their sins and the eternal security and safety of their soul in Christ.

The Bible tells us that we do not have to doubt God's plan to bring us all the way home.

1 John 2:23–29
23 No one who [habitually] denies (disowns) the Son even has the Father. Whoever confesses (acknowledges and has) the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, keep in your hearts what you have heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the first dwells and remains in you, then you will dwell in the Son and in the Father [always].
25 And this is what He Himself has promised us—the life, the eternal [life].
26 I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
27 But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He is made visible, we may have and enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed and shrink from Him at His coming.
29 If you know (perceive and are sure) that He [Christ] is [absolutely] righteous [conforming to the Father’s will in purpose, thought, and action], you may also know (be sure) that everyone who does righteously [and is therefore in like manner conformed to the divine will] is born (begotten) of Him [God].

 

[dwight92070]

Here are about 25 "KEEP" commands in the New Testament. I heard that there are over 1000 commands in the New Testament. None of us can obey all of them perfectly every day. We know that, but we are to strive to obey them as we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

And we can only walk in the Spirit as we abide in Jesus, continue in His word, pray continually, and obey His word, and bear fruit. "IF anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." John 15:6

Being born again is just the beginning of our salvation. It's absolutely necessary but our Christian walk or responsibilities don't stop there. Exchanging wedding vows is just the beginning of marriage. It's absolutely necessary but our marriage doesn't stop there. We must KEEP FAITHFUL UNTIL DEATH.
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12

Acts 15:29 " ... that you ABSTAIN from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; IF YOU KEEP YOURSELF free from such things, you will do well ..."
Romans 16:17 "Now I urge you, brethren, KEEP YOUR EYE on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them."
Galatians 5:1 "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore KEEP STANDING FIRM and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Philippians 3:16 " ... let us KEEP LIVING by that same standard to which we have attained."
Colossians 3:1-2, " ... KEEP seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on the earth.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you KEEP AWAY from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us."
1 Timothy 5:22 " ... KEEP YOURSELF FREE from sin."
1 Timothy 6:14 " ... that you KEEP THE COMMANDMENT without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Hebrew 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they KEEP WATCH over your souls as those who will give an account."
James 1:27 "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: ... and to KEEP ONESELF unstained by the world."
1 Peter 1:13 "Therefore, prepare you minds for action, KEEP sober in spirit ..."
1 Peter 2:12 "KEEP your behavior excellent among the Gentiles ..."
1 Peter 3:10 "The one who desires life, to love and see good days, MUST KEEP his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit."
1 Peter 3:16 " ... and KEEP a good conscience ..."
1 Peter 4:8 "Above all, KEEP FERVENT in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."
1 Peter 4:13 " ... but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, KEEP on rejoicing ..."
1 John 2:3 "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS."
1 John 2:4 "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him', and does NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 3:22 " ... and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and do the things that are pleasing in His sight."
1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; ..."
Jude 1:21 " ... KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, ..."
Revelation 12:17 " ... who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS."
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the perseverance of the saints who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and THEIR FAITH IN JESUS."
Revelation 22:12 " ... and let the one who is righteous, STILL PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS; and the one who is holy, STILL KEEP HIMSELF HOLY."

 

[makesends]

God saves whom He will and only whom He will? There is no scripture that actually says that. On the contrary, there are tons of scripture that say the opposite.
John 3:15 " ... so that WHOEVER believes will in Him have eternal life."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Romans 10:13 "WHOEVER will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is ... NOT WISHING for ANY TO PERISH, but FOR ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE."
John 7:37 "IF ANYONE is thirsty, let him come to ME and drink, HE WHO BELIEVES in Me, as the scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."
Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING."

Every one of the verses you posted supports what I said, that God saves whom he will, and that only those will be saved. Who do you think "whosoever" is, after all? Who else even CAN believe, if God has not given him real faith? None are willing, but those whom God has made willing.

It is both biblical and logical.

 

[makesends]

Doubt or uncertainty isn’t always bad. It can be productive when it drives us into deeper prayer and study and investigation. If we are absolutely convinced about everything, beyond the shadow of a doubt, we face the even bigger problem of arrogance and pride. Doubt humbles. It reminds us that we are finite and that our knowledge is always subject to improvement and increase.

But...there's always a but, doubt can also be crippling in a way that undermines our relationship with God. If we are constantly doubting his Word or wondering if he will fulfill his promises or are cynical of his stated intentions, it’s hard to grow spiritually.

Some Christians are tormented by fears that God can’t be as good as he portrays himself in Scripture. Some experience a gnawing anxiety about whether Jesus was really God and whether he can be trusted with their lives. But the worst and most crippling kind of doubt is when children of God live in fear and anxiety over the forgiveness of their sins and the eternal security and safety of their soul in Christ.

The Bible tells us that we do not have to doubt God's plan to bring us all the way home.

1 John 2:23–29
23 No one who [habitually] denies (disowns) the Son even has the Father. Whoever confesses (acknowledges and has) the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, keep in your hearts what you have heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the first dwells and remains in you, then you will dwell in the Son and in the Father [always].
25 And this is what He Himself has promised us—the life, the eternal [life].
26 I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
27 But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He is made visible, we may have and enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed and shrink from Him at His coming.
29 If you know (perceive and are sure) that He [Christ] is [absolutely] righteous [conforming to the Father’s will in purpose, thought, and action], you may also know (be sure) that everyone who does righteously [and is therefore in like manner conformed to the divine will] is born (begotten) of Him [God].

This is where the love of God "kicks into gear"! The admiration and adoration of God takes the eyes off self, and makes one confident in God's ability to bring to pass whatever GOD has in mind. Skepticism of the results of God's will fade away. "Though he slay me, yet will I praise him."

The joy of knowing that God will complete whatever he set out to do, is greater than any fear concerning one's own end.

 

[civic]

Every one of the verses you posted supports what I said, that God saves whom he will, and that only those will be saved. Who do you think "whosoever" is, after all? Who else even CAN believe, if God has not given him real faith? None are willing, but those whom God has made willing.

It is both biblical and logical.

While we might disagree with the means we agree with the result. Those whom God saves are eternally secure in Christ. No one can snatch one from His hands and He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish and He will raise them on the last day.

 

[dwight92070]

Every one of the verses you posted supports what I said, that God saves whom he will, and that only those will be saved. Who do you think "whosoever" is, after all? Who else even CAN believe, if God has not given him real faith? None are willing, but those whom God has made willing.

It is both biblical and logical.

So here we are confronted with doctrinal error again saying God MAKES people do this or that - in particular He makes us willing to receive Jesus and salvation. That's not the God of the Bible. He allows us to make OUR OWN DECISIONS. That's the God of John Calvin. He is NOT a micro-managing bully. Actually there's no verse in the Bible that says God saves only those who He wants to. But let's assume that He does that. Then that would also mean that He damns those to burn in hell who He wants to - and there's nothing that those people can do that will change His mind. That "God" is a cruel bully, NOT the God of Israel or the Bible.

God, in His sovereign will, has chosen to GIVE US FREE WILL, not to force us to be saved and He doesn't force us to stay saved.
Of course, He is ABLE to force people to do anything He wants, and ON RARE OCCASIONS in the Bible, He may have done that, but generally, no. We are not His marionettes, with Him pulling our strings. He did force or cause Pharoah to harden his heart, but that was only after much patience, waiting for him to repent, but instead he kept on hardening his own heart. Finally God decided to judge that wicked man and that wicked country, Egypt.
To say that God makes people "willing" is an oxymoron. If God makes people do anything, even change their heart, then they did NOT HAVE FREE WILL to do it. It's the same as God FORCING THEM TO DO IT.

 

[dwight92070]

So here we are confronted with doctrinal error again saying God MAKES people do this or that - in particular He makes us willing to receive Jesus and salvation. That's not the God of the Bible. He allows us to make OUR OWN DECISIONS. That's the God of John Calvin. He is NOT a micro-managing bully. Actually there's no verse in the Bible that says God saves only those who He wants to. But let's assume that He does that. Then that would also mean that He damns those to burn in hell who He wants to - and there's nothing that those people can do that will change His mind. That "God" is a cruel bully, NOT the God of Israel or the Bible.

God, in His sovereign will, has chosen to GIVE US FREE WILL, not to force us to be saved and He doesn't force us to stay saved.
Of course, He is ABLE to force people to do anything He wants, and ON RARE OCCASIONS in the Bible, He may have done that, but generally, no. We are not His marionettes, with Him pulling our strings. He did force or cause Pharoah to harden his heart, but that was only after much patience, waiting for him to repent, but instead he kept on hardening his own heart. Finally God decided to judge that wicked man and that wicked country, Egypt.
To say that God makes people "willing" is an oxymoron. If God makes people do anything, even change their heart, then they did NOT HAVE FREE WILL to do it. It's the same as God FORCING THEM TO DO IT.

If God MAKES US do everything, then why are we even here? There would be no need for us - He could just do whatever He wants - we wouldn't need to be created. The truth is He doesn't MAKE US DO ANYTHING. He has given us total free will.

 

[makesends]

So here we are confronted with doctrinal error again saying God MAKES people do this or that - in particular He makes us willing to receive Jesus and salvation. That's not the God of the Bible. He allows us to make OUR OWN DECISIONS. That's the God of John Calvin. He is NOT a micro-managing bully. Actually there's no verse in the Bible that says God saves only those who He wants to. But let's assume that He does that. Then that would also mean that He damns those to burn in hell who He wants to - and there's nothing that those people can do that will change His mind. That "God" is a cruel bully, NOT the God of Israel or the Bible.

God, in His sovereign will, has chosen to GIVE US FREE WILL, not to force us to be saved and He doesn't force us to stay saved.
Of course, He is ABLE to force people to do anything He wants, and ON RARE OCCASIONS in the Bible, He may have done that, but generally, no. We are not His marionettes, with Him pulling our strings. He did force or cause Pharoah to harden his heart, but that was only after much patience, waiting for him to repent, but instead he kept on hardening his own heart. Finally God decided to judge that wicked man and that wicked country, Egypt.
To say that God makes people "willing" is an oxymoron. If God makes people do anything, even change their heart, then they did NOT HAVE FREE WILL to do it. It's the same as God FORCING THEM TO DO IT.

I would have a hard time considering someone who died in my place a bully for grabbing me by the scruff of the neck and picking me up out of the pit of death.

For whatever it is worth, I didn't come to believe what I do through anybody else's teaching. I don't know Calvin, never studied him and didn't go to Calvinist nor Reformed teaching/churches.

Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it simply makes sense. Cause-and-effect. There can logically be only one first cause, and that is God. Everything else is effect, though as far as I know, pretty much every effect is also a cause of further effects. And there is no such thing as an effect that is not caused. If, by "freewill", one means that one is not caused to choose what they choose, I say they are logically wrong. All things are caused, except first cause —the Creator Himself. That doesn't imply robothood on the part of the creature, but it does imply we have no absolute spontaneity. We are free to choose according to our inclinations, and, remarkably, we are also bound to choose according to our inclinations. But God can change our inclinations, by transforming us from spiritual death, to life.

 

[Diserner]

That doesn't imply robothood on the part of the creature, but it does imply we have no absolute spontaneity.

Could you explain—in as much depth as you are willing to—what you think the difference between those two things are.

 

[dwight92070]

I would have a hard time considering someone who died in my place a bully for grabbing me by the scruff of the neck and picking me up out of the pit of death.

First of all, Biblically, God doesn't do that for anyone, unless they FIRST humbly repent, seek His forgiveness for their sins and commit to follow Jesus until death. Again God does not save people who have not met the above conditions for salvation.
The John Calvin "God", who is a bully, does exactly what you said for those who He foreordains to be saved. For all others who are not foreordained to be saved, and they have no choice to repent even if they wanted to, He grabs them by the scruff of the neck and at the end of their life, He throws them into hell to be burned forever. I would have a hard time considering someone who did that as anything BUT A BULLY.

For whatever it is worth, I didn't come to believe what I do through anybody else's teaching. I don't know Calvin, never studied him and didn't go to Calvinist nor Reformed teaching/churches.

Even though are not a follower of John Calvin's teaching, your teaching is pretty much the same as his, at least on the topic we are discussing.

Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it simply makes sense. Cause-and-effect. There can logically be only one first cause, and that is God. Everything else is effect, though as far as I know, pretty much every effect is also a cause of further effects. And there is no such thing as an effect that is not caused. If, by "freewill", one means that one is not caused to choose what they choose, I say they are logically wrong. All things are caused, except first cause —the Creator Himself. That doesn't imply robothood on the part of the creature, but it does imply we have no absolute spontaneity. We are free to choose according to our inclinations, and, remarkably, we are also bound to choose according to our inclinations. But God can change our inclinations, by transforming us from spiritual death, to life.

At least you are honest, and acknowledge that your beliefs do not originate in the Bible, which explains why you are so mistaken.

 

[Ahar]

Eternal security and Perseverance of the Saints Are not the same thing. Here's a list of five differences.

Five Differences Between Perseverance of the Saints and Eternal Security – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[civic]

Eternal security and Perseverance of the Saints Are not the same thing. Here's a list of five differences.

Five Differences Between Perseverance of the Saints and Eternal Security – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Thanks I will take a look.

 

[Diserner]

This thread should really be under "Soteriology," @Administrator.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it simply makes sense. Cause-and-effect. There can logically be only one first cause, and that is God. Everything else is effect, though as far as I know, pretty much every effect is also a cause of further effects. And there is no such thing as an effect that is not caused. If, by "freewill", one means that one is not caused to choose what they choose, I say they are logically wrong. All things are caused, except first cause —the Creator Himself. That doesn't imply robothood on the part of the creature, but it does imply we have no absolute spontaneity. We are free to choose according to our inclinations, and, remarkably, we are also bound to choose according to our inclinations. But God can change our inclinations, by transforming us from spiritual death, to life.

At least you are honest, and acknowledge that your beliefs do not originate in the Bible, which explains why you are so mistaken.

I acknowledge no such thing. Maybe you didn't see in my statement there, the phrase, "part of", in, "Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it simply makes sense."

There are several reasons for believing what I do, and Scripture DOES teach what I believe.

Do you agree, for example, that Scripture teaches that God is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, he is omniscient, and if omniscient, then he intended for what has come to pass, in every precise detail, because, at a minimum, he knew it would come to pass, but created anyway. Further, Scripture backs up that conclusion, and not just the basics from which to draw logical conclusions. On top of that, Scripture also gives other reasons why the basics and conclusions are necessary, because of God's intentions for the end of man —God's reason for creating.

You are very much mistaken to say that I acknowledge that my beliefs do not originate in the Bible. Yours, however, do not, but originate in the worldview of self-determination —the mindset that attributes spontaneity of the creature, and assumes self-importance to one's status before God — and interprets Scripture accordingly.

 

[Rockson]

Do you agree, for example, that Scripture teaches that God is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, he is omniscient,....

Now why would that be? I'm not into open theism but they don't believe God is omniscient in the way that you say but they do believe he is omnipotent. I believe God is omniscient but I don't believe it's connected to him being omnipotent which I believe he is by the way. So why do you say what you do?

and if omniscient, then he intended for what has come to pass, in every precise detail, because, at a minimum, he knew it would come to pass, but created anyway.

Sorry I don't follow your reasoning. So you say because he knew things would come to pass that's a given he wanted it to be that way. No. What's a given is he intended for man to have free will and choice NOT that he wanted the fruits of evil in the earth. Let's put it simply. LOVE doesn't want evil. To want evil is evil itself for evil hurts people and LOVE surely doesn't delight in seeing people destroyed.

You are very much mistaken to say that I acknowledge that my beliefs do not originate in the Bible.

All readers will assess your position and make that determinization themselves as they will with me too.

 

[Diserner]

There are several reasons for believing what I do, and Scripture DOES teach what I believe.

Do you agree, for example, that Scripture teaches that God is omnipotent? If God is omnipotent, he is omniscient, and if omniscient, then he intended for what has come to pass, in every precise detail, because, at a minimum, he knew it would come to pass, but created anyway. Further, Scripture backs up that conclusion, and not just the basics from which to draw logical conclusions. On top of that, Scripture also gives other reasons why the basics and conclusions are necessary, because of God's intentions for the end of man —God's reason for creating.

You are very much mistaken to say that I acknowledge that my beliefs do not originate in the Bible. Yours, however, do not, but originate in the worldview of self-determination —the mindset that attributes spontaneity of the creature, and assumes self-importance to one's status before God — and interprets Scripture accordingly.

It seemed to me like you said "Scripture says" and then follow that with a bunch of human reasoning and philosophy trying to deduce how the attributes of God must necessarily interface with creation.

Scripture does indeed teach free will:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/yes-calvinists%E2%80%94free-will-is-in-the-bible.98/

 

[civic]

This thread should really be under "Soteriology," @Administrator.

I recommended that be done to the administrator.