brightfame52
Well-known member
If Tulip Truths are elements of the Gospel of Gods Grace, and arminians or anyone else rejects Tulip, well you do the math.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
Well-known member
If Faith wasnt never given to an unbeliever, they would never become a believer. All men by nature are unbelievers until they are regenerated, apart from that,our nature is disobedient, as children of disobedience Eph 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
The word disobedience here is apeitheia:
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
- ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.
So how can a child of unbelief, stop being what they are by nature and become a child of faith ?
civic
Well-known member
nope all your faith given verses are to those who are already believers.
next fallacy, your reason and logic is coming from an unbiblical view, ie the carnal mind that is hostile towards God.
God draws, the Holy Spirit convicts and man either believes or remains in unbelief.
hope this helps !!!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Then, where faith comes from? Where repentance, and hope, perseverance, and love come from?
Do those things come from our own efforts?
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (Phil 2:13)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)
I love the story of the father who had lost faith in the ability of the disciples to heal his child.
Jesus challenged his lack of faith, but the man, recognizing his unbelief, asked Jesus to have faith (Mark 9:21-24)
The man: But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us
Jesus: "‘If you can’?... Everything is possible for one who believes.
The man: I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It doesn't matter. The faith you had years ago when you first met Christ, and the faith you have now, and the faith that will keep you walking in five years, is all faith and it is all a gift from the same source.
Same with love, same with hope, same with any single good thing we have, my brother.
So, nobody can show arrogance towards anyone else, neither because of his good deeds, neither because of his faith. Both are gifts. Praise be to God!
Plus, I am showing you in Mark 9:21-24 how the father of the sick child, who was not a believer of Jesus, recognized that he needed help from his unbelief... he could not trust his own faith. It was too weak to operate the miracle.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus said it was THEIR FAITH that saved them- not the faith He gave to them. Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Faith is a conviction of the mind that Christ is God. Jesus said unless you believe that “ I AM” you will die in your sins.(John 8:24) Read the whole chapter. Paul declared one must confess Jesus is Lord(YHWH) to be saved and those who call upon Him will be delivered(Joel 2:32). Secondly it is a voluntary surrender to Him as Lord or Master of your life. By faith our mind trusts in God, our heart responds to His love and our will submits to the commands of God. Our life yields to obedience in our service to Him. Faith goes beyond reason, it believes without understanding why. ( Heb 11:1) Faith chooses to endure ill treatment (Heb 11:25) Faith accepts all things as a part of God will, Paul’s imprisonment.( Phil1:12) You are not born with faith, it comes from hearing Gods word(Rom 10:17) You cannot be saved without faith.(John 3:36) No peace with God without faith.(Rom 5:1) You are justified by faith(Gal 2:16) Christ dwells in our hearts by faith (Eph 3:17) The Spirit is received by faith (Gal 3:2)
conclusion: I have scripture that supports 100% the biblical principle of faith and what is required by man to be saved. You have fatalism/determinism/hyper calvinism as your salvation- not faith, not the gospel, not Christ. your doctrine teaches you were saved before you were created, before there was a gospel, before you believed and without the gospel.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
One by nature has no faith but are children of disobedience.
civic
Well-known member
sure it matters, every single iota, jot, tittle, word ( Matt 5:18 ). Every single thing written matters. You think like augustine, calvin and luther.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The fact they had Faith showed they were already saved. man by nature has no faith. Plus saved in those verses dont refer to salvation from the penalty of their sins. Sometimes it means physical healing, not eternal salvation. You are wresting scripture.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
By God's grace, love, mercy. What is impossible to man, is possible to God.
And so what? The use of the possessive "their" or "your" can be applied to anything we have. It doesn't' mean that we created that thing. Do you agree with me, civic?
For example, the Bible also says "your righteousness" as if it was ours. It is OK to speak like that. However, is righteousness something we produce or something God produces in us?
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mathew 5:20)
Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness (2 Cor 9:10,11)
civic
Well-known member
nope none of them were saved before they believed.
did the blind man see before he exercised faith ?
did the lame man walk before he exercised faith ?
did the woman with an issue stop bleeding before sh exercised faith ?
was the Centurions son healed before he exercised his faith ?
the RESOUNDING answer is NO
next fallacy
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Man by nature has no faith, but has the capacity to be touched by God to have faith, and regenerated by God to live a new life.
This is what Calvin got very, very wrong, when he thought about total depravity.
Man was created in the image of God and man has never ceased to be his creation and his beloved son, in God's eyes.
When Calvin speaks of "total depravity" in man, Calvin is forgetting that God created man in his image, so man cannot have total depravity.
His depravity coexists with the inherent capacity to be recipient of God's transformative power.
The only way man could have total depravity is that God had given him total depravity, which is incompatible with God's character.
Since Calvin could not explain why a Muslim (or any other person who did not share his Christology) could exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, Calvin invented the weird concept of "common grace" in contrast which "salvific grace". Calvin could not accept the simple fact that the Muslim can be renewed by God's grace, repent and live a transformed life. Calvin could not withstand that. Could not bear with the concept. Calvin got goosebumps.
By "common grace", Calvin tried to explain that some people (say, a Muslim) are righteous because God does not allow them to be as evil as they are by nature.
That's true... but that's not a grace different from the grace of God in the Presbyterian. In both cases it does the very same thing: renew, restore, justify, sanctify, sustain.
The perspective that we are all created in the image of God help us to recognize in all men and women, an inherent dignity and infinite value. It help us to recognize that we all are not only subjects of God's wrath. We are all subject to God's love!!
You, as well, as @civic, as well as me, are beloved by God and have the capacity to act according to his regenerative power.
Who embedded in us that capacity? Our Creator, of course!
In the same way man cannot change his nature to come to God, man cannot change his nature to be immune to God's call.
"In God we live, and move, and have our existence". Let's not forget that.
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civic
Well-known member
God saves the person who believes.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Pancho Frijoles
Correct, so its not possible to obey until God makes one a new creature. Until then we are children of disobedience/unbelief by nature. And Gods Grace, Mercy and Love is reserved for His Elect alone.
civic
Well-known member
false as real faith involves action and obedience
faith precedes regeneration. salvation happens after one believes the gospel message not before they hear it. As Peter teaches one is born again after they hear and believe the gospel.
next fallacy
brightfame52
Well-known member
There is no obedience to God by nature, as such we are children of disobedience Eph 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Same thing, Faith is joined with obedience Rom 16 26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Amen,
Amen.
God’s grace, mercy and love is reserved for you. So you can confidently say Praise be to God!
God’s grace, mercy and love is reserved for me. So I can confidently say Praise be to God!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Did Jesus heal the son of that man because he believed?
