The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

So what's your blue print to accomplish all that the Bible tells us to do?

Jesus gave us the blueprint. "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Paul gave us the blueprint. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Which Bible version do we read?

It is my understanding that God is capable of preserving His Truth through His Inspired Word called the Bible. If a man is seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, I'm sure God will lead him to a trustworthy translation. But if a man is only looking to justify an adopted religious sect or business of this world God placed him in, the translation they use won't matter.

Which church do we attend?

The One that Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Moses, Daniel, Zacharias and Simeon, Peter, Matthew, Cornelious and Paul partook of. Paul points this out to those who are truly seeking God.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Which ordinance do we acknowledge? And on and on ...

Here, let the God and Father of all, whose Words the Jesus "of the bible" tells you to Live by, tell you.

Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The mainstream religious sects of Jesus Time didn't believe in the Words of this Jesus, or His Father Jesus said to Worship and pray too. Modern religions of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord, don't believe in Him either, and like the Pharisees, have rejected His Judgments and Statutes.

I advocate that men believe in this Jesus, not the image of God in the likeness of a man being promoted by this world's religious system.
 
Jesus gave us the blueprint. "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Paul gave us the blueprint. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

It is my understanding that God is capable of preserving His Truth through His Inspired Word called the Bible. If a man is seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, I'm sure God will lead him to a trustworthy translation. But if a man is only looking to justify an adopted religious sect or business of this world God placed him in, the translation they use won't matter.
Let's look at the case of people knowing only about the NWT through no fault of their own. Shouldn't we have the desire to alert them and not just do nothing because of your idea that "God will lead them to him to a trustworthy translation"?
The One that Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Moses, Daniel, Zacharias and Simeon, Peter, Matthew, Cornelious and Paul partook of. Paul points this out to those who are truly seeking God.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
So tell us the location of "the One that Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Moses, Daniel, Zacharias and Simeon, Peter, Matthew, Cornelious and Paul partook of."
Here, let the God and Father of all, whose Words the Jesus "of the bible" tells you to Live by, tell you.

Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The mainstream religious sects of Jesus Time didn't believe in the Words of this Jesus, or His Father Jesus said to Worship and pray too. Modern religions of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord, don't believe in Him either, and like the Pharisees, have rejected His Judgments and Statutes.

I advocate that men believe in this Jesus, not the image of God in the likeness of a man being promoted by this world's religious system.
You didn't mention the Baptism ordinance nor the Lords Prayer ordinance or any other ordinance. I believe it is Salvation Army that believe in no ordinances. Are you a member of the Salvation Army?
 
Notice that the word "any" is italicized. That means that word is not found in the original text. It was added. So it's not any image that has to be smashed, only the ones that misrepresent God or those that are treated as idols.

Tell me the Bible version that you're using so that I can quarantine any copy of mine before it spreads its vital influence any further.
Of course, men's religious images are precious to them, just as they were to the Egyptians. I don't believe that taking an ancient pagan symbol like a cross or fire or a fish, and placing Jesus Name on it, makes it Holy. Just as I don't believe taking ancient Pagan religious high days and placing Jesus Name on them, makes them Holy. But a lot of the promoters of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, are convinced that it does. And the merchants of this world certainly wax rich peddling these images, and promoting these ancient Pagan high days introduced into "Christianity" by a sun worshipper.

I am used to being called names and labeled by this world's religious promoters. Clearly, according to your religion, God was an iconoclastic at His core.
Your Bible version wrongly depicts God as a iconoclast through the adding of words that did not exist in the originals.
LOL, God destroyed that Temple. Jesus said He would. Here is the Jesus "of the bible's" Words that direct my feet.
Um. The Romans leveled the Temple, not God. Your iconoclasm is showing.
He is no longer Human. I am always fascinated by this world's religious promoters, that they claim to know what Jesus is right now.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and "it doth not yet appear" what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be "like him"; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So John, who knew the Christ, didn't know what Jesus was in His Ascension. But a religion that rejects God's Judgments, rejects His Feasts, creates and promotes their own high days and creates their own images of God in the likeness of men, "Do know" what Jesus is now.

Truly fascinating.
Jesus is no longer human????? Your iconclasm has reached its zenith. You're a Docetist.
What is an image of a Spirit? Are you saying that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, is a handsome white man, with long flowing hair?

"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him".

Who is this god you promote, with his hands outstretched over Rio De Janeiro?
Read Colossians 1:15 and weap for your iconoclastic docetism.

"He is the Image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15, ESV)
 
Hi Studyman

I think this topic is quite interesting and perhaps you should think in opening a thread about it.
All civil organizations require funds to operate: non-gubernamental organizations, clubs, associations, etc. That doesn't make them a "business" because they don't do it for profit.
So, I can't accuse any religious association to be a "business" only because members contribute financially to its projects and overall cause.

However, I do agree with you that many churches or religious associations behave like a business.
Churches in which few leaders seek keep control over the minds and pockets of their sheep and expand the size of the flock to increase their income.

I disagree based on the available record of these religious organizations. They are, in America, 501c3 organizations. Most all governments of this world have a similar tax-exempt policy. It's a great tax shelter for wealthy men to contribute to and it allows the govt's of the world to monitor their religions.

A 501(c)(3) organization is a tax-exempt nonprofit organization recognized under the United States Internal Revenue Code. To qualify, it must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes such as charitable, religious, or educational activities, and none of its earnings may benefit any private individual or shareholder. Additionally, it cannot engage in substantial lobbying or political activities. This designation allows donors to make "tax-deductible" contributions to the organization. A popular way for wealthy men to reduce their taxable income.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2ed3...1aXJlbWVudHMtNTAxYzMtb3JnYW5pemF0aW9ucw&ntb=1
The funds received by these "Non-profit" religious organizations are given as salaries to the promoters, managers, treasurers, employees, etc of the specific religious sect. Their purpose is to sell, or promote a theology designed to appeal to the masses for the purpose of increasing contributions necessary for the organization to exist. All of these religious 501c3's compete with each other for contributing members. They purchase with this tax-free money advertisement, maintain web sites, and in some cases build massive, extremely expensive shrines of worship, all for the purpose of enticing people to join their organization. They organize charities to help and feed random poor people as part of their appeal. The more members, the more money, the more shrines of worship created to seen of men for the purpose of attracting more people the organization, which brings more money to create more shrines of worship, and on and on and on. This is how the 501c3 grows.

This religious "tradition" of this world's religious system has been in practice for a long time. Imagine if the recourses allocated for just the construction of the thousands of competing manmade shrines of worship alone, was set aside for the homeless of this world. There would be no homeless people at all. For instance, the Baha's religious organization just completed construction of an enormous shrine of worship in Kenya. I can't even imagine what that incredible structure cost. Millions and millions of dollars no doubt. And for what purpose? To signal God? To be seen of God? I mean no disrespect, but it is what it is. This Temple was built to be seen of and entice men to join their organization. But the Temple of the God of the Bible, is in the mind of men, not the thousands of man-made shrines of worship created by religious organizations of this world competing with each other for contributing members.

According to the Bible, God doesn't even dwell in Temples made of wood and stone. And these massive shrines are built to be seen of men, not God who has made it known clearly that such man-made endeavors, although popular in the religious sects of the world God placed us in, are not desired by God at all. So clearly the organizations are not about the "widow or the fatherless", although their expensive advertisements and pamphlets and web sites promote that it is. They are about growing their specific religious organization, promoting their particular religious philosophy, and this to receive the praise of men.

In your case my friend, you are promoting the religious philosophy of universalism. A religious philosophy that promotes to all humans, "Thou shall surely not die". This is the foundational doctrine of all of this world's religious organizations "who profess to know God". In my understanding, this philosophy started in the Garden of Eden.

Since I am a believer in the Spiritual Book called "The bible", it is clear according to the Word's found therein that neither the God of Abraham, nor the Prophesied Messiah, the Christ Jesus, are Universalists. They do not promote that humans are all born immortal and all will inherit the Kingdom of God regardless of whom they "yield themselves" to. It seems perfectly understandable, in my view, why Jesus would instruct me to "Come out of her", the "her" being a religious system filled with thousands of competing religious businesses/organizations who all have ONE thing in common. They don't believe God's Word as shown in the Torah and the Prophets that Jesus said to live by.

1743341535074.png 1743341607121.png 1743341667381.png 1743341712082.png 1743341854904.png 1743341900827.png


Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

My friend Pancho whom I love. I so must appreciate your perspectives and the questions you ask concerning popular religious philosophies of this world we were born into.

And I mean no disrespect and am not attempting to promote any religious organization or 501c3. I simply want to share with you the perspective of a man who has separated himself from this world's religious system for 30 years now, a system made up of hundreds of differing non-profit organizations that profess to know God. I think we agree that essentially, they are all the same, being no different one from another. Where we disagree, I think, is in the philosophy that implies God is telling them all, "Come as you are" I'm going to save you all anyway.

At any rate, according to Baha'i doctrine, my family and I are going to inherit the Kingdom of God whether I adopt the religious philosophies of this world's 501c3's or not. However, I have come to trust the Bible "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

In closing, I would have you consider that without the Bible, certainly the Torah and the Prophets, there would be no Koran, no Islam. No Muhammed and therefore, no Baháʼu'lláh. The foundation of a "Christ" or "Messenger of the God of Abraham" is founded in the Torah as the Koran admits.

For this reason, the Bible is my trusted source for instruction in righteousness. Not the religious philosophies of a random 501c3.

Nevertheless, it's always good to hear from you and I hope you have a good day.
 
I disagree based on the available record of these religious organizations. They are, in America, 501c3 organizations. Most all governments of this world have a similar tax-exempt policy. It's a great tax shelter for wealthy men to contribute to and it allows the govt's of the world to monitor their religions.

A 501(c)(3) organization is a tax-exempt nonprofit organization recognized under the United States Internal Revenue Code. To qualify, it must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes such as charitable, religious, or educational activities, and none of its earnings may benefit any private individual or shareholder. Additionally, it cannot engage in substantial lobbying or political activities. This designation allows donors to make "tax-deductible" contributions to the organization. A popular way for wealthy men to reduce their taxable income.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2ed3...1aXJlbWVudHMtNTAxYzMtb3JnYW5pemF0aW9ucw&ntb=1
The funds received by these "Non-profit" religious organizations are given as salaries to the promoters, managers, treasurers, employees, etc of the specific religious sect. Their purpose is to sell, or promote a theology designed to appeal to the masses for the purpose of increasing contributions necessary for the organization to exist. All of these religious 501c3's compete with each other for contributing members. They purchase with this tax-free money advertisement, maintain web sites, and in some cases build massive, extremely expensive shrines of worship, all for the purpose of enticing people to join their organization. They organize charities to help and feed random poor people as part of their appeal. The more members, the more money, the more shrines of worship created to seen of men for the purpose of attracting more people the organization, which brings more money to create more shrines of worship, and on and on and on. This is how the 501c3 grows.

This religious "tradition" of this world's religious system has been in practice for a long time. Imagine if the recourses allocated for just the construction of the thousands of competing manmade shrines of worship alone, was set aside for the homeless of this world. There would be no homeless people at all. For instance, the Baha's religious organization just completed construction of an enormous shrine of worship in Kenya. I can't even imagine what that incredible structure cost. Millions and millions of dollars no doubt. And for what purpose? To signal God? To be seen of God? I mean no disrespect, but it is what it is. This Temple was built to be seen of and entice men to join their organization. But the Temple of the God of the Bible, is in the mind of men, not the thousands of man-made shrines of worship created by religious organizations of this world competing with each other for contributing members.

According to the Bible, God doesn't even dwell in Temples made of wood and stone. And these massive shrines are built to be seen of men, not God who has made it known clearly that such man-made endeavors, although popular in the religious sects of the world God placed us in, are not desired by God at all. So clearly the organizations are not about the "widow or the fatherless", although their expensive advertisements and pamphlets and web sites promote that it is. They are about growing their specific religious organization, promoting their particular religious philosophy, and this to receive the praise of men.

In your case my friend, you are promoting the religious philosophy of universalism. A religious philosophy that promotes to all humans, "Thou shall surely not die". This is the foundational doctrine of all of this world's religious organizations "who profess to know God". In my understanding, this philosophy started in the Garden of Eden.

Since I am a believer in the Spiritual Book called "The bible", it is clear according to the Word's found therein that neither the God of Abraham, nor the Prophesied Messiah, the Christ Jesus, are Universalists. They do not promote that humans are all born immortal and all will inherit the Kingdom of God regardless of whom they "yield themselves" to. It seems perfectly understandable, in my view, why Jesus would instruct me to "Come out of her", the "her" being a religious system filled with thousands of competing religious businesses/organizations who all have ONE thing in common. They don't believe God's Word as shown in the Torah and the Prophets that Jesus said to live by.

View attachment 1656 View attachment 1657 View attachment 1658 View attachment 1659 View attachment 1660 View attachment 1661


Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

My friend Pancho whom I love. I so must appreciate your perspectives and the questions you ask concerning popular religious philosophies of this world we were born into.

And I mean no disrespect and am not attempting to promote any religious organization or 501c3. I simply want to share with you the perspective of a man who has separated himself from this world's religious system for 30 years now, a system made up of hundreds of differing non-profit organizations that profess to know God. I think we agree that essentially, they are all the same, being no different one from another. Where we disagree, I think, is in the philosophy that implies God is telling them all, "Come as you are" I'm going to save you all anyway.

At any rate, according to Baha'i doctrine, my family and I are going to inherit the Kingdom of God whether I adopt the religious philosophies of this world's 501c3's or not. However, I have come to trust the Bible "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

In closing, I would have you consider that without the Bible, certainly the Torah and the Prophets, there would be no Koran, no Islam. No Muhammed and therefore, no Baháʼu'lláh. The foundation of a "Christ" or "Messenger of the God of Abraham" is founded in the Torah as the Koran admits.

For this reason, the Bible is my trusted source for instruction in righteousness. Not the religious philosophies of a random 501c3.

Nevertheless, it's always good to hear from you and I hope you have a good day.
All this is quite interesting, and you have made many thoughtful remarks, Studyman.
I encourage you to open a thread to discuss this in depth. Copy paste this post of yours into the new thread, edit it a bit to work as an OP, and tag Me. I will be glad to keep our conversation there, my friend.
 
I do not think your personal views are worthless.
That is why I read you, and reply to your posts.
The thing is, very little of what I have posted is my "personal views". I post what Scripture says, connecting separate passages as the Spirit gives me insight to show proper, correct, righteous doctrine.
Your statement points out to the very interesting reflection of how we know we have been born again, and therefore how we know we are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Are you claiming that you are guided by the Holy Spirit? If you are guided by the Holy Spirit then you must have been born again, yet you admit that you are not a Christ follower, have not been born again, and dispute the divinity of Jesus (are antichrist). How then are you guided by the Holy Spirit?
 
Come on now Doug. You really don't know what religious business you are here to promote?

Here is just one popular religious business that is promoted by some. You can see how it is run. The religious business Civic is promoting has the same practice. JW, SDA, Catholic, Armenian, they are all become a religious business selling a specific religious philosophy and competing against other religious businesses for contributing members, without which their business would cease to exist.

View attachment 1652

There are schools to teach men how to start and manage a religious business. You can own your own religious franchise of the Baptist, or Methodist, or JW, as long as you get a certificate from one of their approved religious schools to show you how to properly promote their specific religious philosophies. Lots of websites for the very purpose of managing a religious business.

https://www.aplos.com/church-accounting-software




There are videos showing a person how to make money by owning a religious business, promoting religious traditions etc.


Some of the older religious businesses have become massive empires, cashing in on the man-made high days and their religious traditions that have created so much wealth for the merchants of this world. The Catholic empire is a massive business with fingers into banking, finance, school, healthcare, etc. SDA is a 24/7 religious empire invested in schools, banking, finance, healthcare and real estate etc.

Arminianism has perfected the use of the internet to promote and expand their particular religious philosophy. "got Questions" and the BBS are hugely profitable web sites created to compete against Calvinism and other religious businesses for the purpose of promoting their specific religious philosophy.

Truly this world's religious system is big money and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord are and have cashed in.

But the Jesus "of the Bible" said not to be like unto these hypocrites who create these religious businesses with their man-made shrines of worship to be seen and heard of men.

This chaotic religious system of competing religious businesses has no foundation in the Holy scriptures. There is only ONE Body, One Lord, and ONE God and Father of all. Not hundreds of competing religious businesses.

Sadly, like the religious business of the Pharisees, the promoters of this world's religions are so invested in the philosophies and traditions of their particular religious sect they cannot turn away from it and turn to God. Such a move requires faith in God, which requires belief in God.

The religion itself becomes the god that they "Yield themselves" servants to obey. Paul speaks to this in Romans 6:13-23.

Jesus tries to tell them that you can't serve a religion that rejects many of God's Judgments while creating their own judgments and high days, and serve the One True God at the same time.

Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

He goes on to say, "33 But seek ye first the kingdom "of God", (Not man) and "his" righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (What to eat, what to drink and what covering to wrap yourself with)

I advocate that men turn away from this world's religious system, and turn to God as Jesus instructs. I know this religious system is an offence that must come, just as the serpent in the garden. But we don't have to adopt their philosophies like Eve did. As Paul also tells us.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
Interesting. So you think that just because a congregation of the Church orients itself as a business, this means that it is "selling a specific religious philosophy and competing against other religious businesses for contributing members"?

I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion, but to ascribe that motivation to every person who attends, is a member of, or is part of the leadership of any of these congregations is grossly improper. You do not know the hearts of every person reading this forum, nor the hearts of every attendee, member, or leader of these congregations.

Every congregation with which I have ever been associated has been oriented as a non-profit business in order to take advantage of the tax laws of the nation in which it operates. This does not mean that it is "selling a specific religious philosophy". They are not "selling" anything. Nor does it mean that they are "competing against other religious businesses for contributing members".
The Church does not compete within itself for "contributing members". The Church competes against the world for the souls of the lost. Yes, there are some "churches" (groups that call themselves "Christian" but in reality are not following Christ ) that are seeking to keep sinners in the world, and seeking to draw members of the Church back into the world.

I am also sure that there are people who run "churches" that are in it just for the money, as you suggest. Running a "church" is probably a great way to become fabulously wealthy. But again, people who do this are not part of God's Church. They are Satan's servants. But the majority of Churches that are organized as a business are not in this category.
 
The thing is, very little of what I have posted is my "personal views".
I think everything we all wrote in the Forum are personal views, which are formed we and nurtured from what we read, hear, think and experience since we were child.
The Holy Spirit help us to see the light little by little, through a continuous process.
By reading you, I also get new insights, so God guises me through you as well.
Are you claiming that you are guided by the Holy Spirit? If you are guided by the Holy Spirit then you must have been born again, yet you admit that you are not a Christ follower, have not been born again, and dispute the divinity of Jesus (are antichrist). How then are you guided by the Holy Spirit?
We all learn new things everyday, and I think you must still in the process of learning that the Holy Spirit works and acts regardless of theological stances.
To know whether a person is guided by the Holy Spirit, you must look at the kind of life that person lives. If they live a life of love, you know that person has been bien again: this is, has passed from death to life.

So, i am convinced that the Holy Spirit guides the life of my wife, who is an atheist, as much as the life of my friend Ricardo, who is Calvinist, and also that God guides my life as a Baha’i.

It is the Holy Spirit which makes me see Christ in you, and treat you accordingly.
 
I think everything we all wrote in the Forum are personal views, which are formed we and nurtured from what we read, hear, think and experience since we were child.
The Holy Spirit help us to see the light little by little, through a continuous process.
By reading you, I also get new insights, so God guises me through you as well.
You are correct that we are all in a process of learning and growing; some growing in Christ, and many (most) growing in death.
We all learn new things everyday, and I think you must still in the process of learning that the Holy Spirit works and acts regardless of theological stances.
To know whether a person is guided by the Holy Spirit, you must look at the kind of life that person lives. If they live a life of love, you know that person has been bien again: this is, has passed from death to life.

So, i am convinced that the Holy Spirit guides the life of my wife, who is an atheist, as much as the life of my friend Ricardo, who is Calvinist, and also that God guides my life as a Baha’i.

It is the Holy Spirit which makes me see Christ in you, and treat you accordingly.
The actions of the Holy Spirit are not dependent on the salvation of the person being guided. But it is also clear that the Holy Spirit does not give insight into the things of God in Scripture to those in whom He does not dwell. John 3:1-5 says that those who have not been born again of water and the Spirit cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God. 1 Cor 2:12 says that we are given understanding of the things of God by the Spirit of God who indwells us. If you don't have the indwelling, then you don't receive that understanding. And the only way to have the indwelling of the Spriit is to be born again in Christ (Eph 1:13-14).
If your wife is an atheist, then she is not in Christ, not saved, and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (even though He may be working to bring her to salvation in the future).
You have stated that you are not in Christ, not saved, and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (even though He may be working to bring you to salvation in the future).
Your calvinist friend I do not know, so I do not know what he believes, or if he has been baptized into Christ. But many of Calvin's ideas are completely contrary to Scripture, and lead to a completely incorrect version of life in Christ.
 
Interesting. So you think that just because a congregation of the Church orients itself as a business, this means that it is "selling a specific religious philosophy and competing against other religious businesses for contributing members"?

I'm just pointing out undeniable truths. This world's religious system is made up of hundreds of religious businesses/organizations that compete with each other for contributing members, without which they could not exist. They all promote differing religious philosophies designed to draw more members to their specific religious sect. While it is true they preach in Christ's Name, and do many wonderful works in His Name, their purpose is to grow their particular religious organization by promoting that their religion is better than the others. Armenian VS Calvinism, Pharisees VS Sadducees, Catholics VS Baptists, and on and on. To say this world's religious system isn't a conglomeration of different religious organizations competing against each other for contributing members, is simply naive.

I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion, but to ascribe that motivation to every person who attends, is a member of, or is part of the leadership of any of these congregations is grossly improper. You do not know the hearts of every person reading this forum, nor the hearts of every attendee, member, or leader of these congregations.

God has already shown me the motivation of the heart of every man, including myself.

Jer. 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How does a person overcome such a heart? Here is what my Lord and Savior instructed for me to "DO".

Matt. 6: 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This world's religious system doesn't promote this teaching.

Every congregation with which I have ever been associated has been oriented as a non-profit business in order to take advantage of the tax laws of the nation in which it operates. This does not mean that it is "selling a specific religious philosophy". They are not "selling" anything. Nor does it mean that they are "competing against other religious businesses for contributing members".

I get that you are programmed to defend this world's religious system that you have adopted, just as the Pharisees defended theirs, and the JW defends theirs, and the Mormons defend theirs, and the Calvinists defend theirs. Just as I did, just as Saul did, when "in time past we walked according to "the course of this world", according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

If you are not willing to step back, like Nicodemus did, and consider the Christ's instructions and warnings, how are you any different than the "Christians" Jesus warned about in Matt. 7: 22,23? I asked myself the same question 30 years ago. The answer is obvious.

The Church does not compete within itself for "contributing members". The Church competes against the world for the souls of the lost. Yes, there are some "churches" (groups that call themselves "Christian" but in reality are not following Christ ) that are seeking to keep sinners in the world, and seeking to draw members of the Church back into the world.

You mean like religions that are promoted by men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ? Religions who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord, but "Full well reject the commandment of God, that they may keep your own tradition"? You mean like religions who reject God's Judgments and create their own? Religions who reject the Feasts of the Lord Jesus and Paul walked in, and have created their own high days? You mean religions who create images of God in the likeness of men? Religions who create man-made shrines of worship to be seen of men?

I simply advocate not just calling Jesus Lord, Lord, but believing and "doing" what HE says.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am also sure that there are people who run "churches" that are in it just for the money, as you suggest.

You keep misunderstanding the point. The false preacher in the garden with Eve wasn't in it for the money. The father of the Pharisees wasn't in it for the money. The spirit on the children of disobedience isn't in it for the money.

The Merchants of the earth in Jesus' Time didn't wax rich promoting the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus and Paul walked in. But the merchants of this world God placed you and I in, surely cash in on the high days, traditions and images of God created by and promoted by the "Many who come in Christ's Name". In fact, the entire world partakes of the high days created by the Catholic church and promoted by her Protestant daughters. While the Feasts of the Lord Jesus and Paul walked in, are rejected and despised by the same world.

This is simply undeniable truth of this world that God placed both you and I in. Does it matter? Maybe not, nevertheless, it is the truth.


Running a "church" is probably a great way to become fabulously wealthy.

Only if it convinces "many" to support and defend its philosophies and contribute financially to it.

But again, people who do this are not part of God's Church.

This is my point.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Acts 7: 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

They are Satan's servants. But the majority of Churches that are organized as a business are not in this category.

The Jesus "of the Bible" said about the mainstream religious organization of His Time, "who professed to know God", "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". He said they were children of the devil and even though they knew about their traditions were not from God, because HE showed them, but they still didn't believe HIM. Do you believe that a religion who knows God's Judgments and Commandments, but rejects them that they may keep their popular religious traditions, are satan's servants?
 
I'm just pointing out undeniable truths. This world's religious system is made up of hundreds of religious businesses/organizations that compete with each other for contributing members, without which they could not exist. They all promote differing religious philosophies designed to draw more members to their specific religious sect. While it is true they preach in Christ's Name, and do many wonderful works in His Name, their purpose is to grow their particular religious organization by promoting that their religion is better than the others. Armenian VS Calvinism, Pharisees VS Sadducees, Catholics VS Baptists, and on and on. To say this world's religious system isn't a conglomeration of different religious organizations competing against each other for contributing members, is simply naive.
Too true, but that applies to the WORLD'S religious systems, not the Church which Jesus bled and died to establish (even if congregations of that Church operate as businesses under their nation's tax structure.
God has already shown me the motivation of the heart of every man, including myself.
You are most blessed to have the full insight of deity within you. You must be nearing deity yourself, you are so holy and self-righteous.
Correct, the religions of this world do indeed fail to teach such truths. But again, the congregations of the Church (even though organized as businesses under the legal system of the nation in which they exist) do indeed teach these truths.
I get that you are programmed to defend this world's religious system that you have adopted, just as the Pharisees defended theirs, and the JW defends theirs, and the Mormons defend theirs, and the Calvinists defend theirs. Just as I did, just as Saul did, when "in time past we walked according to "the course of this world", according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
You quote a lot of Scripture without true, righteous, or accurate application of it.
If you are not willing to step back, like Nicodemus did, and consider the Christ's instructions and warnings, how are you any different than the "Christians" Jesus warned about in Matt. 7: 22,23? I asked myself the same question 30 years ago. The answer is obvious.
I have indeed "stepped back" and considered Christ Jesus' instructions and warnings. But you see evil where none exists in this case. Just because a congregation of the Church takes advantage of the nation's tax code to enable them to more properly utilize the tithes from the members of the Lord's Church to advance the Kingdom does not make them inherently evil. The Lord commanded us to be wise in the ways of this world, but to be above it spiritually, using the world's rules and laws to the advantage of the Church where possible, but to seek His Kingdom above all.
You mean like religions that are promoted by men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ? Religions who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord, but "Full well reject the commandment of God, that they may keep your own tradition"? You mean like religions who reject God's Judgments and create their own? Religions who reject the Feasts of the Lord Jesus and Paul walked in, and have created their own high days? You mean religions who create images of God in the likeness of men? Religions who create man-made shrines of worship to be seen of men?
Yes, there are many of these worldly religions out there. These are not the Lord's Church.
I simply advocate not just calling Jesus Lord, Lord, but believing and "doing" what HE says.
As do I.
You keep misunderstanding the point. The false preacher in the garden with Eve wasn't in it for the money. The father of the Pharisees wasn't in it for the money. The spirit on the children of disobedience isn't in it for the money.

The Merchants of the earth in Jesus' Time didn't wax rich promoting the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus and Paul walked in. But the merchants of this world God placed you and I in, surely cash in on the high days, traditions and images of God created by and promoted by the "Many who come in Christ's Name". In fact, the entire world partakes of the high days created by the Catholic church and promoted by her Protestant daughters. While the Feasts of the Lord Jesus and Paul walked in, are rejected and despised by the same world.
What "feasts and high days" are you talking about? Are you being intentionally vague, or do you not really know what you are saying?
This is my point.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Acts 7: 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
I agree. There is only one Church, and it is divided into many congregations, and they into many individual people. Not every congregation that calls itself part of the Church is really part of God's Church, and not every congregation that you accuse of being part of this world's religious "businesses" is outside of the Lord's Church. You are making blanket statements that are untrue because of their excessively broad reach.
The Jesus "of the Bible" said about the mainstream religious organization of His Time, "who professed to know God", "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". He said they were children of the devil and even though they knew about their traditions were not from God, because HE showed them, but they still didn't believe HIM. Do you believe that a religion who knows God's Judgments and Commandments, but rejects them that they may keep their popular religious traditions, are satan's servants?
I absolutely do not believe in a religion like you describe here. But I also do not agree with you that celebrating human holidays is inherently evil. I agree with you that idols like the rosary, statues of Mary, sometimes even the cross, are to be avoided and condemned. But I do not agree that it is evil to organize the Church as a business in order to more wisely and properly use the Lord's tithe.
 
If your wife is an atheist, then she is not in Christ, not saved, and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (even though He may be working to bring her to salvation in the future).
You have stated that you are not in Christ, not saved, and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (even though He may be working to bring you to salvation in the future).
Your calvinist friend I do not know, so I do not know what he believes, or if he has been baptized into Christ. But many of Calvin's ideas are completely contrary to Scripture, and lead to a completely incorrect version of life in Christ.

The question you should ask about Ricardo, my Calvinist friend, is not what he believes, or what rituals he performs... but how he lives!

Be guided by the Holy Spirit does not imply that we will make no errors... errors of any kind: in maths, in the management of your money, in your health choices, or in theology. But it means that we will live bearing the fruits of the spirit.

Look, Doug:

Have you been genuinely loved by somebody who did not share your theology?
Are you genuinely loved these days by somebody who does not share your theology?

If you have experienced or are experiencing that love, it is because it is a gift from God! It is an action of the Holy Spirit in that person who loves you!

No devil, no cultural factor, no desire of popularity, no external morality, could have ever produced that love.
Now, if you say that love does not equal salvation, then you don't still understand what salvation is all about.

Salvation is about passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. And we know we have passed from death to life when our life is full with love.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)
It is love to each other what covers multitude of sins, because reflects our new nature:
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. ( 1 Peter 4:8)
It is love to each other what is the distinctive sign of being a Christian:
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (Joh 13:35)

If you tell me that your mother or wife loved you and others genuinely, I will never have to ask you what she believed... if she was a Catholic or Mormon or had no formal religion whatsoever. If she lived a life of love, it is the proof she was in Christ, and is saved.

1743447082988.jpeg
 
Last edited:
The question you should ask to my Calvinist friend is not what he believes, or what rituals he performs... but how he lives!
Nope. That is a wrong question. Because the lost can still live a good, loving, care giving life. Once a person has sinned (and EVERYONE sins), that person is lost with no hope of ever being saved again outside of Jesus Christ.

And there is ONLY one way back into relationship with Jesus Christ, and that is through obedience to His Gospel.
Be guided by the Holy Spirit does not imply that we will make no errors... errors of any kind: in maths, in the management of your money, in your health choices, or in theology.
Very true.
But it means that we will live bearing the fruits of the spirit.
Also true. But a person without the Spirit of God can still exhibit the appearance of righteousness.
Look, Doug:

Have you been genuinely loved by somebody who did not share your theology?
Are you genuinely loved these days by somebody who does not share your theology?

If you have experienced or are experiencing that love, it is because it is a gift from God, an action of the Holy Spirit in that person who loves you.

No devil, no cultural factor, no desire of popularity, could have ever produced that love.
Now, if you say that love does not equal salvation, then you don't understand what salvation is all about.

Salvation is about passing from spiritual death to spiritual life (in other words, being born again). And we know we have passed from death to life when our life is full with love.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)
It is love to each other what covers multitude of sins, because reflects our new nature:
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. ( 1 Peter 4:8)
It is love to each other what is the distinctive sign of being a Christian:
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (Joh 13:35)

If you tell me that your mother loved you and others genuinely, I will never have to ask you what she believed... if she was a Catholic or Mormon or had no formal religion whatsoever. If she lived a life of love, it is the proof she lived by the Spirit, she was in Christ, and was saved.
Sorry, but that is a lie that demonstrates your lack of Spiritual guidance. You read the words, but you do not understand the Spirit of God.

The fact that a person can love indicates that there is a God. But the fact that a mother loves her child is not proof that she is saved. Even sinners love (Luke 6:32). You are correct that love is a trait that shows we are born again. But what love? If even sinners love those who love them, just any love cannot be the sign that one is born again. No, it is love for those who hate you, love that transcends everything else, that is the sign we are born again.
 
Nope. That is a wrong question. Because the lost can still live a good, loving, care giving life.
Nope. If they live a good, loving, care giving life they are not lost by definition.
So asking how my Uruguayan Calvinist friend lives is exactly the right question to ask… the one Jesus wants you to ask. (“by their fruit you will know them”)

The whole purpose of Christ’s life and sacrifice on the cross was to make people live a good, loving, joyful, meek, peace-seeking, care-giving life. This is the fundamental meaning of “having eternal life”, “entering the kingdom of heaven”, “seeing God”, “being children of God”.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

But a person without the Spirit of God can still exhibit the appearance of righteousness.
I’m not talking here about an apparent righteousness. I’m talking about a genuine transformed life of a person who does not share your creed.
 
Last edited:
Nope. If they live a good, loving, care giving life they are not lost by definition.
So asking how my Uruguayan Calvinist friend lives is exactly the right question to ask… the one Jesus wants you to ask. (“by their fruit you will know them”)
Again, even the lost (sinners) love those who love them. Just because a person has the capacity to love does NOT make them saved.
The whole purpose of Christ’s life and sacrifice on the cross was to make people live a good, loving, joyful, meek, peace-seeking, care-giving life.
WRONG!!! The purpose of His life and sacrifice was to make a way for us to be reunited with God.
This is the fundamental meaning of “having eternal life”, “entering the kingdom of heaven”, “seeing God”, “being children of God”.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


I’m not talking here about an apparent righteousness. I’m talking about a genuine transformed life of a person who does not share your creed.
There is no fundamental transformation if a person is not born again. Just because a person has the capacity to love, and demonstrates a loving attitude does not mean that they have been born again. A person who denies Jesus, even if that person shows love for others, is LOST and will spend eternity in Hell.

You are trying to make all religions and all creeds and all dogmas equal. But there is ONLY ONE way to be saved, and ONLY ONE name through which any person can be saved: and that name is JESUS. Mohammad cannot save. Buddha cannot save. Whoever Bahai is cannot save. Mormonism cannot save. Catholicism cannot save. JWism cannot save. ONLY JESUS SAVES!!!
 
You are trying to make all religions and all creeds and all dogmas equal.

Yes, that is the point of universalism that Pancho is making. That God doesn't judge this world's religious organizations, or those souls who adopt them, based on their adherence of differing traditions, doctrines or philosophies promoted by them. That the "Way of the Lord" Jesus walked in and promoted, as defined in the bible, is just another of the many religious sects and organizations of this world, no different than Catholics or her Protestant daughters or Muslims or Buddhists or Baha'i. As long as men don't steal from each other and they love one another as defined by each individual, they are part of God's Kingdom.

This in contrast to you Doug, who promotes the religious philosophy that only the religious organization of this world that "you" adopt, and the ancient man-made high days that "you" partake of, and the judgments of God that "you" deem worthy of honor and respect, are God's Church. All others are false religions.

Whereas the Bible promotes a "way of the Lord" designed to allow and empower men to "overcome" the "course of this world", the "many" religious/nonreligious influences they will encounter in their journey through this life and the battles in the mind they will partake of until the end.

I tend to agree with Pancho in that there is absolutely no difference between any of the religious organizations of this world, that profess to know God. But because I believe all that is written in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus lived by and promoted, I don't believe men are born immortal, or that I am to adopt the righteousness of men while rejecting the righteousness of God, nor do I believe men should adopt religious men's definition of "Love" or Holy, after the imagination of their own hearts.

While it is true that the religious sect of Calvinism, or Armenians or Catholics and many others, preach in Jesus Name, and they cast out demons in Christ's Name, and the build thousands of man-made shrines of worship in Christ's Name, and they do "MANY" wonderful Works, all in Christ's Name. Nevertheless, HE Said HE doesn't even know them, because they reject God's definition of Holy, Clean and Good.

Now it is true that the Baha'i community and lifestyle is seductive and rewarding. And the Baptist community along with the JW organization is a rewarding life for those who adopt them. They gather in their shrines of worship and find great peach and joy in their religious high-days and images of God.

But for me, according to the instructions of the Lord's Christ, I seek "God's Righteousness and God's Love", not the righteousness or love of men that is popular in the religious organizations of this world. Yes, they are seductive, and yes, they can be rewarding. And yes, they can look good to man.

Col. 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

And Jesus said, "They have their reward".

I am looking for a lasting reward as promoted by the Christ "of the bible" as HE defines. "My kingdom is not of this world". To find this most precious treasure, Jesus told me to "Live by" the Words of God, as HE did.

It is much more popular to take the path Eve chose, and listen to the other seductive voices in the garden God placed us in. Jesus said, "Be ye therefore not like unto them".

But there is ONLY ONE way to be saved, and ONLY ONE name through which any person can be saved: and that name is JESUS. Mohammad cannot save. Buddha cannot save. Whoever Bahai is cannot save. Mormonism cannot save. Catholicism cannot save. JWism cannot save. ONLY JESUS SAVES!!!

Calling Jesus Lord, Lord doesn't "SAVE" anyone.
 
Yes, that is the point of universalism that Pancho is making. That God doesn't judge this world's religious organizations, or those souls who adopt them, based on their adherence of differing traditions, doctrines or philosophies promoted by them. That the "Way of the Lord" Jesus walked in and promoted, as defined in the bible, is just another of the many religious sects and organizations of this world, no different than Catholics or her Protestant daughters or Muslims or Buddhists or Baha'i. As long as men don't steal from each other and they love one another as defined by each individual, they are part of God's Kingdom.
And this philosophy is completely contrary to the Word of God. If the love we show one another is "as defined by each individual" then we have a sliding scale of righteousness and there are no absolutes. God says that there are absolutes, and He is the only one who can establish or define those absolutes.
This in contrast to you Doug, who promotes the religious philosophy that only the religious organization of this world that "you" adopt, and the ancient man-made high days that "you" partake of, and the judgments of God that "you" deem worthy of honor and respect, are God's Church. All others are false religions.
That is not what I promote at all.
Whereas the Bible promotes a "way of the Lord" designed to allow and empower men to "overcome" the "course of this world", the "many" religious/nonreligious influences they will encounter in their journey through this life and the battles in the mind they will partake of until the end.

I tend to agree with Pancho in that there is absolutely no difference between any of the religious organizations of this world, that profess to know God.
You are absolutely correct: there is no difference between any of the religious organizations OF THIS WORLD. The only "religious organization" that is any different is the Church which Jesus established and bought with His blood. It is completely different from the religions of this world.
Calling Jesus Lord, Lord doesn't "SAVE" anyone.
You are correct; just calling Him Lord does not save. What saves is doing the will go God (Matt 7:21). And the only way to do that is to be in Christ (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).
 
Again, even the lost (sinners) love those who love them. Just because a person has the capacity to love does NOT make them saved.
Good morning, Doug

I'm not talking here about hypocrisy or convenient relationships. I'm talking about the kind of love that Jesus asked us to have, which Paul also described in 1 Corinthians 13. That capacity to love is a gift of the Spirit and cannot be imitated.

That's precisely why Jesus taught that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. That's precisely why Jesus taught that Satan can't fight Satan.
Aren't these clear teachings from Jesus? Why then, you and others cling to a denial of the fruits of the Spirit, when these fruits are expressed in people from other religions?

Some people resort to 2 Corinthians 11:14,15 to say that Satan can imitate a holy life.
It is obvious that any of us can be deceived by external apparent acts of goodness. That's what we all know as hypocrisy.
But I'm not talking here about hypocrisy, but about a life that objectively luminous.
In 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul is sure that in the end, their acts, their works, will belie the deceivers.
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

When Jesus was challenged by skeptics, He asked them to consider His works. If Jesus was a false Messiah, how could they explain His goodness?





The purpose of His life and sacrifice was to make a way for us to be reunited with God.
Yes. Reunion with God is exactly what the gospel is all about. Please read again the passage
In green, I highlight the kind of new life manifested by the believer. In red, the reunion with God: salvation.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

There is no fundamental transformation if a person is not born again.
I agree 100%.
For that reason, when you see a transformed person, it means she has been born again.
Otherwise, you would be admitting that a person can be transformed by their own efforts, or by Beelzebub.

Just because a person has the capacity to love, and demonstrates a loving attitude does not mean that they have been born again. A person who denies Jesus, even if that person shows love for others, is LOST and will spend eternity in Hell.
No person living with a genuine loving attitude is denying Jesus. That person is in fact following Jesus.
Have you forgotten what is the distinctive sign of discipleship?

The error in which your mind is trapped, Doug, is to place theology as the acid test of the true disciple of Jesus.
You are placing theology above grace, repentance, forgiveness, justice, love, faith, new birth... you name it.
That's why you measure and judge everybody on accoung of the orthodoxy of his theology.
Please reflect about that.

You are trying to make all religions and all creeds and all dogmas equal. But there is ONLY ONE way to be saved,
ONE WAY does not mean ONE CREED.
It means ONE WAY TO LIVE.

When Jesus said "I am The Way" and "I am The Life", he meant "The Way I teach is the Only Way. The kind of Life I live is the only life".
That is why the Gospel was known by the early Christians in the book of Acts s as "The Way". Do you remember?
The Gospel was a Way to live, which was different of other ways to live.

For that reason, if a Zoroastrian is living Jesus' life, and following Jesus' Way, that person is in Christ, and saved.
 
You are correct; just calling Him Lord does not save. What saves is doing the will go God (Matt 7:21). And the only way to do that is to be in Christ (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

Is it the will of God that the violent remains violent?
Is it the will of God that the arrogant remains arrogant?
So, if you see a person that has gone from violent to peaceful, from arrogant to humble, that person is doing the will of God. How could anyone say, then, that such person is not in Christ and not born again because that person is a Sikh?

"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." (1 John 4:7)

Amongst all Pagans of their time, Christians were known for sharing wealth, taking care of each other, treating slaves and masters, men and women, Jews and Greeks, with love, without discriminating.
Their light was the light of loving deeds, not the light of theological orthodoxy.
Their power derived from their conviction that their old life had died with Jesus on the cross, or buried in the water of baptism, and they had been resurrected to a new life with Jesus. A life of good deeds.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."
 
Last edited:
Good morning, Doug

I'm not talking here about hypocrisy or convenient relationships. I'm talking about the kind of love that Jesus asked us to have, which Paul also described in 1 Corinthians 13. That capacity to love is a gift of the Spirit and cannot be imitated.

That's precisely why Jesus taught that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. That's precisely why Jesus taught that Satan can't fight Satan.
Aren't these clear teachings from Jesus? Why then, you and others cling to a denial of the fruits of the Spirit, when these fruits are expressed in people from other religions?
Because the fruit of the Spirit can only come from those who have been born again in Christ. What you are referring to is not the fruit of the Spirit. It is deception perpetrated by Satan. He can, and does, pose as an angel of Light, and uses that falsehood to deceive the saints. Satan does not deceive his own demons, nor does he cast out his demons by his own power. But he can and does pretend to be righteous so that he can entrap people into thinking they are in God's camp when they are really serving him.
Some people resort to 2 Corinthians 11:14,15 to say that Satan can imitate a holy life.
It is obvious that any of us can be deceived by external apparent acts of goodness. That's what we all know as hypocrisy.
But I'm not talking here about hypocrisy, but about a life that objectively luminous.
There is no such thing outside of Christ.
In 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul is sure that in the end, their acts, their works, will belie the deceivers.
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

When Jesus was challenged by skeptics, He asked them to consider His works. If Jesus was a false Messiah, how could they explain His goodness?
Deceivers will ALWAYS fail when the chips are down. Jesus did not fail, so He was not being deceptive. But the "lovers" of the World are in fact deceivers. Remember, there will be many on the day of Judgement that believed they were doing good, they believed they were serving Jesus, they believed that their great works were storing up treasures for themselves in Heaven. But God will tell them, "I NEVER knew you." Everything they did, all the goodness that they thought they were doing, will be considered wickedness because they were never in Christ. If you are not in Christ it doesn't matter what "goodness" you do; it is still crappy, dirty, rags.
Yes. Reunion with God is exactly what the gospel is all about. Please read again the passage
In green, I highlight the kind of new life manifested by the believer. In red, the reunion with God: salvation.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


I agree 100%.
For that reason, when you see a transformed person, it means she has been born again.
Otherwise, you would be admitting that a person can be transformed by their own efforts, or by Beelzebub.
Those who are not in Christ can appear to have a changed life, but they are still in sin if they are not on Christ. Appearance is not everything, and it is not the appearance that we are after, but the union with God. You want to make the appearance the key test, but serving Mohammad will not bring salvation. Denying that Jesus is God (like the JWs) will not bring salvation; regardless of the love and other "signs" that a person shows. Satan can and does deceive people to think that they are in Christ, and that what they are doing is righteous when they are still mired in sin.
No person living with a genuine loving attitude is denying Jesus. That person is in fact following Jesus.
Have you forgotten what is the distinctive sign of discipleship?

The error in which your mind is trapped, Doug, is to place theology as the acid test of the true disciple of Jesus.
You are placing theology above grace, repentance, forgiveness, justice, love, faith, new birth... you name it.
That's why you measure and judge everybody on accoung of the orthodoxy of his theology.
Please reflect about that.
There are many doctrines that are not required for salvation. And many doctrines upon which we can disagree and both of us still be right. But there are a few things that are absolutes, and without them there can be no salvation. Just having a "loving" attitude is a good test, but it is not the ultimate test for a person's salvation.
ONE WAY does not mean ONE CREED.
It means ONE WAY TO LIVE.

When Jesus said "I am The Way" and "I am The Life", he meant "The Way I teach is the Only Way. The kind of Life I live is the only life".
NOPE!!!! He meant that He is the one and only way to receive life and reunion to God. No one can come to the Father except through Him. He is not ambiguous here. He does not leave it up to personal interpretation. "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." You cannot get to the Father without being in Christ, and denying Him will cause Him to deny you.
That is why the Gospel was known by the early Christians in the book of Acts s as "The Way". Do you remember?
The Gospel was a Way to live, which was different of other ways to live.

For that reason, if a Zoroastrian is living Jesus' life, and following Jesus' Way, that person is in Christ, and saved.
I don't know what a Zoroastrian is, but just living Jesus' kind of life does not result in being in Christ and being saved. That is clear when He tells us that there are many who will believe they were in Christ at Judgement and they will be disappointed when He tells them that He NEVER knew them.

Again, you understand the words in Scripture, but because you are not in Christ you cannot understand God's intent. Seeing you do not understand, and hearing you do not comprehend.
"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You shall keep on listening but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, but shall not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’"
 
Back
Top Bottom