The 5 Articles of Remonstrance (Arminianism)

I am attempting to get you to see that EVERYTHING that you are arguing is still true if Man has FREE WILL and GOD is GOD.

(However, I accept TULIP ... the Doctrines of Grace ... while rejecting Hard Determinism because people FREELY choose sin and FREELY reject salvation ... and the Father does extraordinary things to DRAW SOME to the Son anyway!)
  • John 3:18-21
  • John 6:44-45
  • Romans 9
  • Ephesians 2:1-10
  • [Just to get started.]
The Father indeed does extraordinary things to draw men to the Son. All of that drawing is pre-regeneration. The existence of God's special revelation, the Bible, is the first and greatest draw. John 3:18-21 defies Total Depravity. It says that those who believe in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life. Eternal life is given to those who believe in Him.

That is the same message as John 6:44-45. Those who hear and learn from God's word are drawn. The doctrines of C/RT teach that regeneration must occur before anyone can hear and learn from the Father. That is just the opposite of that passage.

In Romans 9, the potter and clay metaphor is all about God's dealing with humanity in the physical life, not in the spiritual life. Fundamentally, it is about using the chosen nation to bring the messiah Jesus Christ into the world. It is about election to service to bring God's plan of salvation to the world.

The whole point of Ephesians 2:1-10 is that salvation is by grace through faith. Through faith means that faith is the door through which grace is obtained. Those who believe in Jesus Christ are the ones who are saved.

(Just to get started)
 
Your number 2. Jesus spoke the truth about the 'many" and "few" flies in the face of Calvinism. It establishes the fact that the "many" and "few" are both free-will choices and Calvinism rejects outright the possibility of anyone choosing the narrow gate.
Does that change the fact that MANY spend eternity in hell and FEW spend eternity in heaven and YOU think God should not have created those that spend eternity in Hell?

That was YOUR argument against C/RT and your complaint of "the way of the Lord is not fair". Your complaint applies equally to FREE WILL (since God still created them and they still end up in Hell.)

Calvinism posits that the few who go through the narrow gate just find themselves already through that gate before they are even aware there is such a gate.
Actually, it does not ...
Jesus is "the gate" and the Father DRAWS people TO the gate (John 6:44-45).
HIS SHEEP hear his voice and follow (John 10:27), while those that are "not of my sheep" do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep (John 10:25-26). The difference is who is "given" by the Father to the Son (John 10:29).

The Doctrines of Grace are all about what the BIBLE says GOD does ... all about HIS GRACE lavished on us (Ephesians 1:7-8).
 
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As @GodsGrace mentioned and I wish to reiterate, Jesus now draws ALL to Himself. That's another nail in the calvinist coffin.

(John 12:32) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
All without exception (every single person without exception starting around AD 40) or all without distinction (some people from every group ... every nation, tribe, tongue and people)?

[I do not know what @GodsGrace posted as I placed her on ignore to maintain peace between us. She provokes the worst in me and I seem to bring out the worst in her, so this is better for everyone.]
 
Does that change the fact that MANY spend eternity in hell and FEW spend eternity in heaven and YOU think God should not have created those that spend eternity in Hell?

That was YOUR argument against C/R and your complaint of "the way of the Lord is not fair". Your complaint applies equally to FREE WILL (since God still created them and they still end up in Hell.)
The truth of the Gospel is that God chooses those who believe in Him and love Him. Those are known to him from before creation and that is the basis of their election. Their election is directly a function of what they do.
Actually, it does not ...
Yes it does. C/RT doctrine says that regeneration occurs before one enters the gate. C/RT doctrine says the unregenerated cannot possibly even know there is a gate. The regenerated have already passed through that narrow gate.
Jesus is "the gate" and the Father DRAWS people TO the gate (John 6:44-45).
C/RT denies that anyone can even know about the narrow gate. C/RT denies anyone can even hear about the gate until they are already through the gate.
HIS SHEEP hear his voice and follow (John 10:27), while those that are "not of my sheep" do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep (John 10:25-26). The difference is who is "given" by the Father to the Son (John 10:29).

The Doctrines of Grace are all about what the BIBLE says GOD does ... all about HIS GRACE lavished on us (Ephesians 1:7-8).
Yes, and if you read just a bit further in Ephesians 1, you will see that from verse 13, HIS GRACE is lavished on us WHEN we heard the word of truth and believed in Him. But C/RT says that is only after, not before being saved, i.e., regenerated.
 
All without exception (every single person without exception starting around AD 40) or all without distinction (some people from every group ... every nation, tribe, tongue and people)?

[I do not know what @GodsGrace posted as I placed her on ignore to maintain peace between us. She provokes the worst in me and I seem to bring out the worst in her, so this is better for everyone.]
You don't bring out the worst in me.
I don't know why I do to you since I only post scripture and never get personal.

But so be it.

ALL means EVERYONE including every group, every nation, every tribe, every tongue, every people.

ALL means ALL.

I guess @synergy will see this but you won't.
 
The Father indeed does extraordinary things to draw men to the Son. All of that drawing is pre-regeneration. The existence of God's special revelation, the Bible, is the first and greatest draw. John 3:18-21 defies Total Depravity. It says that those who believe in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life. Eternal life is given to those who believe in Him.
John 3:18-21 [Young's LITERAL Translation]
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 'And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; 20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected; 21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'
  • "not believing" = has been judged already ... pre-salvation, do people BELIEVE or are they "not believing"?
  • THE JUDGEMENT (on all who have not yet believed) = "men love darkness" (evil); "hate the light" (good/Jesus); "does not come to the light" (Jesus)
  • What of those that do come to the light, how is that possible? ... "in God they are having been wrought" (God did the work, not men).

That is the same message as John 6:44-45. Those who hear and learn from God's word are drawn. The doctrines of C/RT teach that regeneration must occur before anyone can hear and learn from the Father. That is just the opposite of that passage.

John 6:44-45 [Young's LITERAL Translation]
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; 45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
  • By human power ... "no one is able to come unto me".
  • Unless ... the FATHER DRAWS them.
    • Note that the "them" that are drawn by the Father are the same "them" that are raised to life on the last day ... THOSE DRAWN are all GLORIFIED!
  • "they" (those drawn and glorified) ... "shall be all taught of God"
  • "every one" (those drawn and glorified and taught of God) ... "cometh to me" ... comes to Jesus.
  • There is only 1 group (they) being spoken of. This one group is taught by the Father, drawn to the Son, comes to the Son and raised by the Son to glory on the last day.
  • That is not true of "all men without exception".

In Romans 9, the potter and clay metaphor is all about God's dealing with humanity in the physical life, not in the spiritual life. Fundamentally, it is about using the chosen nation to bring the messiah Jesus Christ into the world. It is about election to service to bring God's plan of salvation to the world.
You are mistaken, but rather than arguing line by line I will just point out this fact ... the Chapters and Verse numbers were added later for convenience, but the original scroll just flowed without interruption. So this comes immediately BEFORE and AFTER Chapter 9 to provide context for the flow and the overall subject ...

Romans 8:31-39 [YLT]
31 What, then, shall we say unto these things? if God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us? 33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God [is] He that is declaring righteous, 34 who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 (according as it hath been written -- 'For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us; 38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, 39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Romans 9]

Romans 10:1-13 [YLT]
1 Brethren, the pleasure indeed of my heart, and my supplication that [is] to God for Israel, is -- for salvation; 2 for I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, 3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.
4 For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing, 5 for Moses doth describe the righteousness that [is] of the law, that, 'The man who did them shall live in them,' 6 and the righteousness of faith doth thus speak: 'Thou mayest not say in thine heart, Who shall go up to the heaven,' that is, Christ to bring down? 7 or, 'Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up. 8 But what doth it say? 'Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:' that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach; 9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved, 10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation; 11 for the Writing saith, 'Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,' 12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him, 13 for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

The whole point of Ephesians 2:1-10 is that salvation is by grace through faith. Through faith means that faith is the door through which grace is obtained. Those who believe in Jesus Christ are the ones who are saved.
Ephesians 2:8 [YLT] for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

You seem to think that to some extent (at least the faith) is 100% "OF YOU" vs "not of you". On this we will simply agree to disagree.
  • Romans 12:3 [YLT] For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,
 
All without exception (every single person without exception starting around AD 40) or all without distinction (some people from every group ... every nation, tribe, tongue and people)?

[I do not know what @GodsGrace posted as I placed her on ignore to maintain peace between us. She provokes the worst in me and I seem to bring out the worst in her, so this is better for everyone.]
All means all. For example, when Trump says all must evacuate Tehran, does he mean all or does he mean some people from every group?
 
John 3:18-21 [Young's LITERAL Translation]
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 'And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; 20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected; 21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'
  • "not believing" = has been judged already ... pre-salvation, do people BELIEVE or are they "not believing"?
  • THE JUDGEMENT (on all who have not yet believed) = "men love darkness" (evil); "hate the light" (good/Jesus); "does not come to the light" (Jesus)
  • What of those that do come to the light, how is that possible? ... "in God they are having been wrought" (God did the work, not men).



John 6:44-45 [Young's LITERAL Translation]
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; 45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
  • By human power ... "no one is able to come unto me".
  • Unless ... the FATHER DRAWS them.
    • Note that the "them" that are drawn by the Father are the same "them" that are raised to life on the last day ... THOSE DRAWN are all GLORIFIED!
  • "they" (those drawn and glorified) ... "shall be all taught of God"
  • "every one" (those drawn and glorified and taught of God) ... "cometh to me" ... comes to Jesus.
  • There is only 1 group (they) being spoken of. This one group is taught by the Father, drawn to the Son, comes to the Son and raised by the Son to glory on the last day.
  • That is not true of "all men without exception".


You are mistaken, but rather than arguing line by line I will just point out this fact ... the Chapters and Verse numbers were added later for convenience, but the original scroll just flowed without interruption. So this comes immediately BEFORE and AFTER Chapter 9 to provide context for the flow and the overall subject ...

Romans 8:31-39 [YLT]
31 What, then, shall we say unto these things? if God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us? 33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God [is] He that is declaring righteous, 34 who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 (according as it hath been written -- 'For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us; 38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, 39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Romans 9]

Romans 10:1-13 [YLT]
1 Brethren, the pleasure indeed of my heart, and my supplication that [is] to God for Israel, is -- for salvation; 2 for I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, 3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.
4 For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing, 5 for Moses doth describe the righteousness that [is] of the law, that, 'The man who did them shall live in them,' 6 and the righteousness of faith doth thus speak: 'Thou mayest not say in thine heart, Who shall go up to the heaven,' that is, Christ to bring down? 7 or, 'Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up. 8 But what doth it say? 'Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:' that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach; 9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved, 10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation; 11 for the Writing saith, 'Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,' 12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him, 13 for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'


Ephesians 2:8 [YLT] for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

You seem to think that to some extent (at least the faith) is 100% "OF YOU" vs "not of you". On this we will simply agree to disagree.
  • Romans 12:3 [YLT] For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,
So you believe John 6:44
but you do NOT believe John 12:32??

Maybe the solution is that God draws ALL men to Himself....
and those that ARE GIVEN to Jesus go to Him because they accepted God's grace.

This resolves John 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.
John 12:32 God draws ALL MEN....but not all men will accept the teaching of God.

Those who HEAR and LEARN will be given to Jesus.

Those who open the door will be saved...

Revelation 3:20
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


We must open the door when we hear the voice of God.
 
All means all. For example, when Trump says all must evacuate Tehran, does he mean all or does he mean some people from every group?
I always like to confirm that is what someone means before asking my standard question about what confuses me with that response ...

From wikipedia (but you can verify the basic facts in any history book):
Itzcoatl (meaning "Obsidian Serpent") (c. 1380–1440) was the fourth king of Tenochtitlan, and the founder of the Aztec Empire, ruling from 1427 to 1440. Under Itzcoatl the Mexica of Tenochtitlan threw off the domination of the Tepanecs and established the Triple Alliance (Aztec Empire) together with the other city-states Tetzcoco and Tlacopan.​

Some basic facts from history:
  • Jesus was lifted up around AD 40.
  • Itzcoatl died in 1440 (1400 years after Jesus was "lifted up" to draw "all men" to himself.)
  • Itzcoatl worshiped "god" by cutting out the heart of his living human offering as a gift to his winged serpent deity.
  • The GOSPEL (Good News of Jesus Christ) arrived in the "Americas with the Columbus expeditions in the 1490's.
  • Itzcoatl died 50 years before the arrival of the gospel.
In what sense of "I will draw all men" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?
What of Romans 10:14-15 [ESV]?
  • How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
  • And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
  • And how are they to preach unless they are sent?
  • As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"

Reality seems to contradict your view of "absolutely everyone without exception born after AD 40 being drawn to a Jesus they have never even heard of " ... and Paul's letter to Romans agrees with reality rather than your definition.

So "ALL" must mean something other than "those that never even heard of Jesus" (since Jesus probably did not get the prophecy wrong).
 
For example, when Trump says all must evacuate Tehran, does he mean all or does he mean some people from every group?
Does Trump really mean that the Iranian Soldiers manning the anti-aircraft defenses should disobey orders, abandon their posts and desert the Army? Or did Trump mean all CIVILIANS should leave Tehran for their safety?

Was "all" really "Every person without exception" ... Tehran would be completely vacant, like Chernobyl? ;)
 
drop the 'isms' and you get rid of schisms
Ecumenicism at the expense of Truth is too high a price ...

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 [NLT] First, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it. But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!
 
Ecumenicism at the expense of Truth is too high a price ...

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 [NLT] First, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it. But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!
AMEN
 
Does Trump really mean that the Iranian Soldiers manning the anti-aircraft defenses should disobey orders, abandon their posts and desert the Army?
Yes, everyone.
Or did Trump mean all CIVILIANS should leave Tehran for their safety?
Yes, everyone.
Was "all" really "Every person without exception" ... Tehran would be completely vacant, like Chernobyl? ;)
Yes, everyone.

Everyone else?
Yes, everyone.
 
I always like to confirm that is what someone means before asking my standard question about what confuses me with that response ...

From wikipedia (but you can verify the basic facts in any history book):
Itzcoatl (meaning "Obsidian Serpent") (c. 1380–1440) was the fourth king of Tenochtitlan, and the founder of the Aztec Empire, ruling from 1427 to 1440. Under Itzcoatl the Mexica of Tenochtitlan threw off the domination of the Tepanecs and established the Triple Alliance (Aztec Empire) together with the other city-states Tetzcoco and Tlacopan.​

Some basic facts from history:
  • Jesus was lifted up around AD 40.
  • Itzcoatl died in 1440 (1400 years after Jesus was "lifted up" to draw "all men" to himself.)
  • Itzcoatl worshiped "god" by cutting out the heart of his living human offering as a gift to his winged serpent deity.
  • The GOSPEL (Good News of Jesus Christ) arrived in the "Americas with the Columbus expeditions in the 1490's.
  • Itzcoatl died 50 years before the arrival of the gospel.
In what sense of "I will draw all men" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?
What of Romans 10:14-15 [ESV]?
  • How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
  • And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
  • And how are they to preach unless they are sent?
  • As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"

Reality seems to contradict your view of "absolutely everyone without exception born after AD 40 being drawn to a Jesus they have never even heard of " ... and Paul's letter to Romans agrees with reality rather than your definition.

So "ALL" must mean something other than "those that never even heard of Jesus" (since Jesus probably did not get the prophecy wrong).
Not everyone drawn to God comes to believe in God. The Bible tells us that all people just need to look to nature to know that there is a benevolent God and that they should act and treat everyone accordingly. Read Rom.1:18-23 which sounds tailor made for people like Itzcoatl.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
 
So you believe John 6:44
but you do NOT believe John 12:32??

Maybe the solution is that God draws ALL men to Himself....
and those that ARE GIVEN to Jesus go to Him because they accepted God's grace.

This resolves John 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.
John 12:32 God draws ALL MEN....but not all men will accept the teaching of God.

Those who HEAR and LEARN will be given to Jesus.

Those who open the door will be saved...

Revelation 3:20
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


We must open the door when we hear the voice of God.
Who are those who hear and learn???

@civic
 
Those who hear AND learn are those that accept the gift of salvation offered to them by God.

PS
Many hear but reject.
Our flesh temple/body has physical ears to hear words spoken to us from physical sounds and people

How does one who is spiritually dead hear words that are spiritual???
 
Our flesh temple/body has physical ears to hear words spoken to us from physical sounds and people

How does one who is spiritually dead hear words that are spiritual???
We can HEAR voices.
We can hear what they say.
We have a brain.
We can decipher what they're talking about.
We can decide whether or not we wish to LEARN what they say.

Here is what Paul said about this:

Hebrews 3:7-8
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "
TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS
AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,


Romans 5:8-11

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having
now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For
if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have
now received the reconciliation.


AFTER we have decided to say YES to God...
THEN the scriptures will be seen by us in a different way.
They will no longer be foolishness to the saved person.
 
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