Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[civic]

No. Did you read the passage with care?
This is what happened:

1. The man was reproaching Jesus for the inability of his disciples to heal his boy.
2. The man doubted of Jesus ability as well, and that’s why he said “If you can do anything…”
3. Jesus noticed that and made him realize he had doubted: But Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’
4. The man cried “ I believe” in his despair, because he realized that only by faith we could get his boy healed and he didn’t have that faith.
5. Then he recognizes his insufficient faith: “Help my unbelief!”
6. That man did not come to a Jesus with enough faith to get what he wanted. He needed faith and asked Jesus to trigger that faith.
7. Jesus healed the boy.

The passage shows clearly that we are so weak, that we cannot have the faith that can save us.
It also shows that God is so loving, that he supplies what we lack.

I bear witness of this in my personal life, civic. I was that man. I was an atheist for 20 years. I realized I had lost faith, and couldn’t get healed.
So I recognized my unbelief and asked God that faith.
I didn’t come back to God because I had faith, but because God blessed me with faith.

Jesus prerequisite below is his faith. Jesus said to him everything is possible for the one who believes. The boys father said I do believe. Then asked Jesus for help.

Mark 9-
23“‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”

24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

25;When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

The parallel passage from Matthew 17

14;When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15;“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16;I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18;Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

conclusion: the man had the faith of a mustard seed.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

you deny Pauls teaching about salvation.

Its Sadducee just like the Pharisee. They like you were deceived. You like Saul was deceived until he became born again.

you still have yet to experience the new birth, the new man, the new creation in Christ.

you have no Damascus road experience. no born again experience of Gods spirit to transform your life. you are still in the flesh, the carnal mind which is hostile towards God and under the law. You have not been set free from the law and become a slave of Christ.

You deny unconditional election which is a gospel doctrine Paul taught

 

[civic]

You deny unconditional election which is a gospel doctrine Paul taught

you deny the new birth, being born again becoming a new creation in Christ via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the message of the gospel- believing it and receiving it by faith and becoming a child of God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus prerequisite below is his faith. Jesus said to him everything is possible for the one who believes. The boys father said I do believe. Then asked Jesus for help.

Mark 9-
23“‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”

24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

25;When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

The parallel passage from Matthew 17

14;When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15;“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16;I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18;Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

conclusion: the man had the faith of a mustard seed.

hope this helps !!!

I totally agree with you that faith is a prerequisite. Believe me, I am 100% with you on this.
My contribution to the discussion is that such faith, which is a prerequisite, is also a gift from God. So this should not be a cause of disagreement between calvinists and arminians. It is sterile discussion.

In regards to the man of the story, if he had had the faith of a mustard seed, it would have been enough to operate the miracle (mountains could be moved). Jesus wouldn't have confronted him with his doubts, and the man wouldn't have confessed his unbelief. Do you agree?

What is beautiful about the passage, in my opinion, is that Jesus took in to account man's desperate need of faith.

Whenever we find a person in despair who recognizes her unbelief, instead of ruling her out as an "unbeliever", we should let her know that even WANTING to have faith is enough for God to operate the miracle of healing. Actually, that person can be anyone of us, who regard ourselves as believers. We all have doubts. We must continuously ask God to help our unbelief and keep growing in faith.

In my case, during my conversion 9 years ago, I didn't have faith (I was a skeptical atheist), but I WANTED to have faith. That's all God needed to bless me.

 

[brightfame52]

you deny the new birth, being born again becoming a new creation in Christ via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the message of the gospel- believing it and receiving it by faith and becoming a child of God.

hope this helps !!!

You deny the new birth as well, and total depravity which necessitates the New Birth

 

[civic]

You deny the new birth as well, and total depravity which necessitates the New Birth

Nope I do not as I believe it, teach it and have personally experienced it.

Next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

Nope I do not as I believe it, teach it and have personally experienced it.

Next fallacy

Funny for some one to have experienced the New Birth and yet reject the gospel of Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Funny for some one to have experienced the New Birth and yet reject the gospel of Christ.

Bright, I'm sorry, because usually I ignore everything you say, but what we reject is the gospel that you teach, not the Gospel of Christ. They are VERY different.

 

[civic]

Funny for some one to have experienced the New Birth and yet reject the gospel of Christ.

the new birth comes from the hearing and believing of the gospel message- not the hearing of tulip.

tulip is not the gospel.

 

[civic]

Bright, I'm sorry, because usually I ignore everything you say, but what we reject is the gospel that you teach, not the Gospel of Christ. They are VERY different.

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

Bright, I'm sorry, because usually I ignore everything you say, but what we reject is the gospel that you teach, not the Gospel of Christ. They are VERY different.

Oh Yes, what I testify to is the Gospel of Gods Grace, folk call it in scorn nowadays, calvinism

 

[brightfame52]

the new birth comes from the hearing and believing of the gospel message- not the hearing of tulip.

tulip is not the gospel.

Funny for some one to have experienced the New Birth and yet reject the gospel of Christ.

 

[civic]

Funny for some one to have experienced the New Birth and yet reject the gospel of Christ.

funny for someone to reject the gospel, new birth and faith.

 

[brightfame52]

funny for someone to reject the gospel, new birth and faith.

We will see in the Day of Judgment

 

[civic]

We will see in the Day of Judgment

I'm sure we will. But unlike you I don't wish you harm. You seem to be hoping that I'm damned.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm sure we will. But unlike you I don't wish you harm. You seem to be hoping that I'm damned.

No, I stated earlier i hope God has mercy on you

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We will see in the Day of Judgment

Would you rejoice seeing @civic burning in hell forever as final proof that you were right?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him.

--Hell-o, Hell-o, loser! Now tell me who was right, uh? How does it feel to be burn day and night, day and night? Do you still believe TULIP was a false gospel? Well, I hope you enjoy your free-will hell, ha ha.... ​

Wait a moment, who is that guy being roasted with you... Oh, I see, TomL! Hi, TomL, who is the blasphemous now, uh? Who is the one deceived? What? Too much in pain as to say a word, TomL? ​

This is so much fun! Well, I'll come tomorrow, to see how you guys are doing. I'd love to bring you a bottle of cool water but, you see how the rules are up here. Not even a drop of saliva on my finger. See you guys, keep warm! ​

-- Before you go, I have something to ask you... did it ever cross your mind that I could be indeed one of the elects? ​

-- You, civic? To be honest, no. I always suspected you were chosen as a vessel of wrath... ​

-- Why? I mean, how did you know that I would not end up realizing I was wrong and accepting TULIP...​

-- Well... It could have been gut feeling... or gift of discernment of spirits... who cares now? The point is that I was chosen to be up here, and you to be down there. I'll never know why, you'll never know why... that's the way God's cookie crumbles, dude. Bye!​

What about you, @civic if you happen to be right and brightfame52 happens to be wrong?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him:

-- Oh, is that you, Brightfame? Poor little thing! You see.. I tried so hard to convince you in the Berean Forum of Apologetics, but you wouldn't listen to me. Now, you're gnashing your teeth... Be careful, you may end up needing teeth implants ! Oh, Wait! Who's that guy behind you, the one with the long beard and the funny hat? Is he who I'm thinking? Oh, yeeeessss! John Calvin, in person, burning with you! How blessed I feel: two shows for the price of one... How fun!​

-- Hey, Civic, before you go... Have you seen Pancho Frijoles? I was hoping to see him being tortured much more than me, as he deserves. ​

-- Well, I thought he was with you down there. For sure he's not in heaven, he died as an unbeliever. Do you remember how he argued against the deity of Christ?​

-- Yes, I remember. Well, I guess hell is a big place and he must be somewhere down here... maybe in a special chamber of torture, being skinned or raped by Satan... you know... something appropriate to his level of heresy. ​

-- Maybe.... Hey, I've got a deal for you: if you find Pancho, and get me a ticket to witness his torture from a premium seat, I will bring you a bottle of water.​

-- A big one?​

-- Let's start with a small one. Later on we can negotiate.​

-- OK, it's a deal.​

​

​

​

 

[civic]

Would you rejoice seeing @civic burning in hell forever as final proof that you were right?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him.

"Hell-o, Hell-o, loser! Now tell me who was right, uh? How does it feel to be burn day and night, day and night, day and night for having called TULIP a false gospel? Well, I hope you enjoy your free-will hell, ha ha.... ​

Wait a moment, who is that guy being roasted with you... Oh, I see, TomL! Hi, TomL, who is the blasphemous now, uh? ​

This is so much fun! Well, I'll come tomorrow, to see how you guys are doing. ​

I'd love to bring you a bottle of cool water but, you see how the rules are up here. Not even a drop of saliva on my finger. ​

See you guys, till tomorrow! "​

What about you, @civic if you happen to be right and brightfame52 happens to be wrong?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him:

-- "Oh, is that you, Brightfame? Poor little thing! You see.. I tried so hard to convince you in the Berean Forum of Apologetics, but you wouldn't listen to me. Now, you're gnashing your teeth... Be careful, you may end up needing teeth implants ! Oh, Wait! Who's that guy with you, the one with the long beard? Is he who I'm thinking? Oh, I see now you're in very good company: John Calvin, in person, burning with you! Two shows for the price of one. How fun!"​

-- Hey, Civic, before you go... Have you seen Pancho Frijoles? I was hoping to see him being tortured much more than me, as he deserves. ​

-- Well, I thought he was with you down there. For sure he's not in heaven... ​

-- Well, I guess hell is a big place and he must be somewhere downhere... maybe in a special chamber of torture, being skinned or raped by Satan... you know... something appropriate to his level of heresy. ​

-- Maybe.... Hey, let's make a deal: if you find Pancho, and get me a ticket to witness his torture from a premium seat, I will bring you a bottle of water​

-- A big one?​

-- A small one. Later on we can negotiate.​

-- OK, it's a deal.​

​

​

​

nope

 

[brightfame52]

Would you rejoice seeing @civic burning in hell forever as final proof that you were right?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him.

"Hell-o, Hell-o, loser! Now tell me who was right, uh? How does it feel to be burn day and night, day and night, for having called TULIP a false gospel? Well, I hope you enjoy your free-will hell, ha ha.... ​

Wait a moment, who is that guy being roasted with you... Oh, I see, TomL! Hi, TomL, who is the blasphemous now, uh? Who is the one deceived? What? Too much in pain as to say a word, TomL? ​

This is so much fun! Well, I'll come tomorrow, to see how you guys are doing. ​

I'd love to bring you a bottle of cool water but, you see how the rules are up here. Not even a drop of saliva on my finger. ​

See you guys, keep warm! "​

What about you, @civic if you happen to be right and brightfame52 happens to be wrong?
Would you peer over the edge of the abyss to tell him:

-- "Oh, is that you, Brightfame? Poor little thing! You see.. I tried so hard to convince you in the Berean Forum of Apologetics, but you wouldn't listen to me. Now, you're gnashing your teeth... Be careful, you may end up needing teeth implants ! Oh, Wait! Who's that guy with you, the one with the long beard? Is he who I'm thinking? Oh, I see now you're in very good company: John Calvin, in person, burning with you! Two shows for the price of one. How fun!"​

-- Hey, Civic, before you go... Have you seen Pancho Frijoles? I was hoping to see him being tortured much more than me, as he deserves. ​

-- Well, I thought he was with you down there. For sure he's not in heaven... ​

-- Well, I guess hell is a big place and he must be somewhere downhere... maybe in a special chamber of torture, being skinned or raped by Satan... you know... something appropriate to his level of heresy. ​

-- Maybe.... Hey, let's make a deal: if you find Pancho, and get me a ticket to witness his torture from a premium seat, I will bring you a bottle of water​

-- A big one?​

-- A small one. Later on we can negotiate.​

-- OK, it's a deal.​

​

​

​

Read the thread

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

nope

I know, my friend, that you mean no harm. And @brightfame52 means also no harm... well, in his heart of hearts... I guess...

Yet I wanted to make you representatives of a ridiculous stance, of a satire, for the sake of our readers. This is how you look and sound sometimes.
My apologies to both of you.