The 5 Articles of Remonstrance (Arminianism)

[atpollard]

Not everyone drawn to God comes to believe in God. The Bible tells us that all people just need to look to nature to know that there is a benevolent God and that they should act and treat everyone accordingly. Read Rom.1:18-23 which sounds tailor made for people like Itzcoatl.

1. Knowing that a "God" exists is NOT the same as being "drawn to Jesus to be saved". Jesus said they would be drawn to HIM and you say that is everyone without exception. So it what sense of the word "draw" (as Jesus used it, not as Reformed Theology uses it) was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus Christ (whom he had never heard of)?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

2. Romans 1 does not speak of this knowledge bringing salvation, but only as leaving the damned without excuse for rejecting what little they knew of a true god. It reaches a climax in Romans 3 ...

Romans 3:9-12 [YLT]
What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin, according as it hath been written -- 'There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.

And THEN points to Jesus Christ and what HE has done ...

Rom 3:21-26 [YLT]
And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. ...

 

[synergy]

1. Knowing that a "God" exists is NOT the same as being "drawn to Jesus to be saved". Jesus said they would be drawn to HIM and you say that is everyone without exception. So it what sense of the word "draw" (as Jesus used it, not as Reformed Theology uses it) was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus Christ (whom he had never heard of)?


2. Romans 1 does not speak of this knowledge bringing salvation, but only as leaving the damned without excuse for rejecting what little they knew of a true god. It reaches a climax in Romans 3 ...

Romans 3:9-12 [YLT]
What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin, according as it hath been written -- 'There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.

And THEN points to Jesus Christ and what HE has done ...

Rom 3:21-26 [YLT]
And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. ...

You skipped over Rom 2:12-16. God makes
provisions for even pagan Gentiles to be judged according to the standards of His Gospel.And how is that possible? Gentiles, who have never heard the Gispel, will be judged according to their Good Works, the Law in their Hearts, their Conscience, their Heart, their Mindfulness, their Mercy, etc... according to each individual's specific case. The standard remains the Gospel (Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, etc...). Read Rom 2:12-16.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Jim]

Our flesh temple/body has physical ears to hear words spoken to us from physical sounds and people

How does one who is spiritually dead hear words that are spiritual???

Once again we have someone who thinks that God is incapable of communicating with the unregenerate. Absolute heresy. It is but one of the works of the Holy Spirit to convince the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

The idea that the spiritually dead cannot read and hear the word of God is one of the most heinous of heresies. It comes not from Scripture but was the infiltration of the Manichaen Gnosticism into Christian thought by Augustine and others. Those who believe and are regenerated have, when they did not believe, previously been convicted concerning their own need for salvation.

That is the whole point of the message of Salvation to all in Romans 10:5-21.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

It is the unregenerated that hears and believes.

 

[atpollard]

You skipped over Rom 2:12-16. God makes
provisions for even pagan Gentiles to be judged according to the standards of His Gospel.And how is that possible? Gentiles, who have never heard the Gispel, will be judged according to their Good Works, the Law in their Hearts, their Conscience, their Heart, their Mindfulness, their Mercy, etc... according to each individual's specific case. The standard remains the Gospel (Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, etc...). Read Rom 2:12-16.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Are you arguing that means they were DRAWN TO Jesus and KNOW Jesus?

I see that as nothing more complex than God exercising His rights: "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills" - Romans 9:18 ... not proof that people are drawn to a Jesus savior they have never even heard of. I believe Paul really meant what he said:

Romans 10:12-15 [ESV]

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"​

 

[Jim]

Are you arguing that means they were DRAWN TO Jesus and KNOW Jesus?

I see that as nothing more complex than God exercising His rights: "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills" - Romans 9:18 ... not proof that people are drawn to a Jesus savior they have never even heard of. I believe Paul really meant what he said:

This arbitrary mercy of God discussed in Romans 9 pertains to the physical life, not the spiritual life.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

The only wrath that can be shown is the wrath expended physically in this life. It is only by the providential actions of God here in this world that can be observed. It is only by what has been revealed and observed that the truth of what God promises can be accepted and believed. The spiritual acts of redemption of one are not perceptible to another.

 

[atpollard]

You skipped over Rom 2:12-16.

You skipped over the question:

So in what sense of the word "draw" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus Christ (whom he had never heard of)?

 

[DavidTree]

Once again we have someone who thinks that God is incapable of communicating with the unregenerate. Absolute heresy. It is but one of the works of the Holy Spirit to convince the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

The idea that the spiritually dead cannot read and hear the word of God is one of the most heinous of heresies. It comes not from Scripture but was the infiltration of the Manichaen Gnosticism into Christian thought by Augustine and others. Those who believe and are regenerated have, when they did not believe, previously been convicted concerning their own need for salvation.

That is the whole point of the message of Salvation to all in Romans 10:5-21.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

It is the unregenerated that hears and believes.

Today's Truth Lesson for you.

#1 - i asked a question to which you assumed a "heresy" = Christ does not approve of your false accusation

#2 - YES, we can hear words spoken with our physical ears but unless it is heard by the heart it is UNHEARD OF

#3- Even when the heart of man hears the Word, it does not guarantee salvation = Luke 8:4-15

#4 - JESUS connects 'hearing' to 'seeing' which is 'understanding' = Luke chapter 9

#5 - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God = We are called to preach but it is God who opens our hearts to hear = John 6:43-45

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur @Jim among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

It is not just a matter of hearing = "not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast"

 

[atpollard]

This arbitrary mercy of God discussed in Romans 9 pertains to the physical life, not the spiritual life.

You are mistaken.

Chapter breaks are artificial and arbitrary. Start at Chapter 8 and read Romans 8 through 10 as if it were in one scroll (like it originally was) and you will see that the subject flow is all about salvation.

 

[atpollard]

#5 - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God = We are called to preach but it is God who opens our hearts to hear = John 6:43-45

and Lydia ... Acts 16:14 [YLT] "and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul;"

 

[DavidTree]

and Lydia ... Acts 16:14 [YLT] "and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul;"

WOW - Big THANK YOU for this scripture = now i can add that to my heart with the other GEMS

 

[Jim]

Today's Truth Lesson for you.

I do not consider you to be my teacher. I will stick with God's word.

 

[DavidTree]

I do not consider you to be my teacher. I will stick with God's word.

a.) - You were given, purely God's words of TRUTH = Gospel

b.) - Pride is a terrible thing to keep in your heart

c.) - Learn from JESUS as you claim = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

 

[Jim]

You are mistaken.

Chapter breaks are artificial and arbitrary. Start at Chapter 8 and read Romans 8 through 10 as if it were in one scroll (like it originally was) and you will see that the subject flow is all about salvation.

Yes, it is all about salvation. But specifically. the passage that is designated as Chapter 9 is about God's use of various peoples to bring His plan of salvation to the world. The potter and clay metaphor is about molding the conditions necessary to bring that plan into being; it is not about the salvation of any individual. It is specifically about election of people and peoples for service, not election for salvation.

 

[Jim]

a.) - You were given, purely God's words of TRUTH = Gospel

Yes, but not from you.

b.) - Pride is a terrible thing to keep in your heart

The pride is in your thinking that you are my teacher.

c.) - Learn from JESUS as you claim = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

And I would expect that you are one who probably thinks that little child came into this world with a dead spirit.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, but not from you.

The pride is in your thinking that you are my teacher.

And I would expect that you are one who probably thinks that little child came into this world with a dead spirit.

Pride is coming from you and is evidenced by your confessing to it, such as:

"Yes, but not from you."

"The pride is in your thinking that you think God does not speak thru people whom you devalue."

"And I would expect that you are one who probably thinks that little child came into this world with a dead spirit."
This would not be my thinking but my agreeing with the words of God

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die"

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Jim]

@DavidTree

WOW indeed.

 

[Jim]

Pride is coming from you and is evidenced by your confessing to it, such as:

"Yes, but not from you."

"The pride is in your thinking that you think God does not speak thru people whom you devalue."

"And I would expect that you are one who probably thinks that little child came into this world with a dead spirit."
This would not be my thinking but my agreeing with the words of God

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die"

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

If you only had a clue of what all of that really means. But alas, you obviously do not.

 

[DavidTree]

If you only had a clue of what all of that really means. But alas, you obviously do not.

Your own confessional
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Listen to your Teacher

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

[Jim]

Your own confessional
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Listen to your Teacher

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

You would do well to look into a mirror when you quote that passage. The C/RT tree is a bad tree producing bad fruit.

 

[DavidTree]

You would do well to look into a mirror when you quote that passage. The C/RT tree is a bad tree producing bad fruit.

C/RT is abbreviation for.......?
and

JESUS says you can compare @DavidTree's words to the words of God and if they agree , then so should you

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.