The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Doug Brents]

Is it the will of God that the violent remains violent?
Is it the will of God that the arrogant remains arrogant?
So, if you see a person that has gone from violent to peaceful, from arrogant to humble, that person is doing the will of God. How could anyone say, then, that such person is not in Christ and not born again because that person is a Sikh?

If a sikh were born again, he would cease to be a sikh. You cannot follow two masters. And again, just ceasing to be violent does not mean that you are in Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If a sikh were born again, he would cease to be a sikh. You cannot follow two masters. And again, just ceasing to be violent does not mean that you are in Christ.

Hi Doug

A Sikh who has been transformed into a new man is obviously following just one master: Christ.

If you start saying that ceasing to be violent, lustful, arrogant, selfish, etc. to become peaceful, pure, humble, generous, does not mean a person is in Christ, then you would have to admit that Satan is able to operate sanctification, which is obviously absurd.

God's grace is a gift, not a reward for our intellectual merits in understanding Theology.
God's grace is a gift, not an article Christians buy in exchange for an oral confession and baptism. That would be superstition, and Paul did not teach a superstition when he spoke about declaring with the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
"Demons" can confess Jesus is Lord, and they know that God raised him from dead. However, by definition salvation is not for "demons".

Let's examine the context in which Paul spoke about the verbal confession and salvation:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.​

​

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"​

When Paul speaks about confession with your mouth, he is speaking in the context of the Jewish-Greek conflict. They despised each other, and Paul was telling them that since both confessed the same Master, they both were saved, and any dipute between them would be absurd.

Please read the epistle for Romans all over again. The epistle is founded upon the need to solve the Jewish-Greek conflict. It is mainly a pastoral epistle, not a theological treatise.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Because the fruit of the Spirit can only come from those who have been born again in Christ.

I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of faking the fruit of the spirit. If the fruit of the Sikh is good, he has been born again in Christ.

Those who are not in Christ can appear to have a changed life, but they are still in sin if they are not on Christ.

We are not still in sin (spiritually dead) if we are spiritually alive. And we know we are spiritually alive because we are living a life of love.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)

Appearance is not everything, and it is not the appearance that we are after, but the union with God.

I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of appearance.
It would be not only rationally absurd, but morally evil to accuse people from other religions of exhibiting pure hypocrisy or appearance of good.

... just living Jesus' kind of life does not result in being in Christ and being saved.

Living Jesus' kind of life means being in Christ and saved. This is the ultimate test, Doug.
Read with me: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. (1 John 2:6)

That is clear when He tells us that there are many who will believe they were in Christ at Judgement and they will be disappointed when He tells them that He NEVER knew them.

Do you remember why those people will be rejected by Jesus? Perhaps because they didn't adhere to the doctrines of Jesus' deity, PSA or physical resurrection, or Sola Scriptura? Nope. I invite you to read what Jesus said: ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! (Matthew 7:23). So, if the Sikh is not an evildoer, he is not among those who Jesus will say "I never knew you".

I also invite you to read Mathew 25:31-46. Will the sheep be separated from the goats based on who believed in the doctrine of Trinity or Penal Substitutionary Atonement or Sola Scriptura? Will they be separated based on who believed Muhammed was a Messenger from God and who rejected that idea?

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug

A Sikh who has been transformed into a new man is obviously following just one master: Christ.

A sikh who is transformed by Christ is no longer a sikh.

If you start saying that ceasing to be violent, lustful, arrogant, selfish, etc. to become peaceful, pure, humble, generous, does not mean a person is in Christ, then you would have to admit that Satan is able to operate sanctification, which is obviously absurd.

No, that is not the case at all. Satan cannot "operate sanctification", but he can masquerade, pretend, mimic a sanctified life, and he can cause his followers to mimic a sanctified life as well.

God's grace is a gift, not a reward for our intellectual merits in understanding Theology.
God's grace is a gift, not an article Christians buy in exchange for an oral confession and baptism. That would be superstition, and Paul did not teach a superstition when he spoke about declaring with the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
"Demons" can confess Jesus is Lord, and they know that God raised him from dead. However, by definition salvation is not for "demons".

All of this is true, but irrelevant to the conversation.

Let's examine the context in which Paul spoke about the verbal confession and salvation:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.​

​

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"​

When Paul speaks about confession with your mouth, he is speaking in the context of the Jewish-Greek conflict. They despised each other, and Paul was telling them that since both confessed the same Master, they both were saved, and any dipute between them would be absurd.

There are indeed many aspects of Romans that relate to the conflict between Jews and Gentiles. But again, this has nothing to do with this conversation.

I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of faking the fruit of the spirit. If the fruit of the Sikh is good, he has been born again in Christ.

His fruit may appear good, but it is completely rotten inside if he has not been born again, in which case he is no longer a sikh but a follower of Christ.

We are not still in sin (spiritually dead) if we are spiritually alive. And we know we are spiritually alive because we are living a life of love.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)

Again, the ability to love is not exclusive to Christ followers. EVERYONE has the capacity to love (Luke 6:32). There is a love, greater than what those who are lost can experience, that flows out from those who are saved. And this love is only found in those who have been born again. But those who worship other gods (JWs, mormons, sikh, muslums, etc.) cannot experience this love. There is no salvation found in these religions because they deny Jesus.

I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of appearance.
It would be not only rationally absurd, but morally evil to accuse people from other religions of exhibiting pure hypocrisy or appearance of good.

that is not absurd or morally evil. It is simply truth.

Living Jesus' kind of life means being in Christ and saved. This is the ultimate test, Doug.
Read with me: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. (1 John 2:6)

This verse does not say what you think it says. It is saying that if you claim to be in Him but don't live as He lived, then you are lying to yourself, to the world, and to Him. If you claim to be in Him, then you must live as He lived. It does not mean that all who live as He lived are in Him.

Do you remember why those people will be rejected by Jesus? Perhaps because they didn't adhere to the doctrines of Jesus' deity, PSA or physical resurrection, or Sola Scriptura? Nope. I invite you to read what Jesus said: ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! (Matthew 7:23). So, if the Sikh is not an evildoer, he is not among those who Jesus will say "I never knew you".

Go back and read what these people did. They did great works in Jesus' name, lived as He lived, and served in His name for a lifetime. Yet all that they did is still considered "evildoing" because they were not really in Christ.
If you are in Christ, you can build a house of mud and filth and it will be a golden palace.
If you are not in Christ, you can build a house of gold and diamonds and it will be nothing but a pile of dung.

I also invite you to read Mathew 25:31-46. Will the sheep be separated from the goats based on who believed in the doctrine of Trinity or Penal Substitutionary Atonement or Sola Scriptura? Will they be separated based on who believed Muhammed was a Messenger from God and who rejected that idea?

Nope, they will be separated based upon who was in Christ and who was not.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Doug

If you start saying that ceasing to be violent, lustful, arrogant, selfish, etc. to become peaceful, pure, humble, generous, does not mean a person is in Christ, then you would have to admit that Satan is able to operate sanctification, which is obviously absurd.

God's grace is a gift, not a reward for our intellectual merits in understanding Theology.
God's grace is a gift, not an article Christians buy in exchange for an oral confession and baptism. That would be superstition, and Paul did not teach a superstition when he spoke about declaring with the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
"Demons" can confess Jesus is Lord, and they know that God raised him from dead. However, by definition salvation is not for "demons".

This is true. From the very beginning, satan has "Professed to know God", and certainly has transformed itself (a deceiving spirit) into an apostle of Christ. And the Prophesied Messiah, recognized as such by nearly every religious organization of this world, told us that the most popular, "mainstream" religious organization of HIS Time, who professed to know God, were children of this deceiving spirit.

I think you expose an important truth here that Paul also exposed. "Demons" or deceiving spirits, truly confess Jesus is Lord. They can become humble, generous, peaceful and kind. As Paul teaches, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light".

"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according "to their works".

So then, satan and those who adopt its judgments, its high days and its images of God, can profess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and can transform themselves into apostles of Christ, and can become "Angels of Light", they can "Prophesy in Christ's Name". They can do many wonderful charitable works, in Christ's Name. They can profess to "Cast out demons" all in Christ's Name.

And yet according to the Words of the Prophesied Messiah Himself, as spoken in the Bible, they are "Not in Christ". In fact, HE doesn't even know them.

Jesus and the Law and Prophets warn about this over and over.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Notice my friend, that HE doesn't speak about murderers, thieves or drug dealers here.

Let's examine the context in which Paul spoke about the verbal confession and salvation:

Now that we have established the basis in which Paul is speaking, we can understand him more perfectly.

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is "that they may be saved". For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. ​

For me, this means that I am not capable of Loving others with the Love God intended, if I don't know God or His Definition of "Love". This is why "Seeking God's Righteousness" is essential for Salvation, at least according to the words of the apostle you are quoting.

Jesus says, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

But if a man adopts the religious philosophies of this world's many religious organizations, that the Bible warns us about over and over, then this man's zeal for God "is not based on knowledge".

Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. ​

It is important to understand the Truth of this passage. Paul is speaking of Israel here, who was "shown" God's Righteousness. They were told; "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul". But they didn't believe Him, and refused to submit unto the Righteousness of God, choosing instead to walk after their own righteousness. As Jesus tells us. Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep "your own tradition".

Isaiah and Ezekiel speak to this.

Ez. 20: 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.

So yes, they had a zeal for God, "But not after knowledge". A knowledge available to all men.

Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.​

Yes, I need look no further than Jesus, to know what to eat, what to drink, what is Holy, what is Good, what God to worship and how to worship Him, and how to pray, etc.

I need not look to any other.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ​

How do I know if I am in Christ and not just deceived by the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that Jesus warned me about?

1 John 2: 3 And hereby "we do know" that we know him, if we keep "his commandments".

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love "of God" perfected: "hereby know we" that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

Did Jesus reject His Father's judgements, and create His own? Did HE adopt the religious philosophies of the world that God placed Him in?

He did not. So if I "walk as Jesus walked", am I not "In Him"? And if I have heard about God's Righteousness, but choose to adopt the righteousness created by men who "Profess to know God, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but are disobedient to Him", what does that make me? Certainly not "Christ-Like".

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”​

This would be "Believing" what HE said to do, Yes?

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"​

When Paul speaks about confession with your mouth, he is speaking in the context of the Jewish-Greek conflict. They despised each other, and Paul was telling them that since both confessed the same Master, they both were saved, and any dipute between them would be absurd.

This was because they went about to establish their own righteousness, not because they "Believed" God's "instruction in righteousness". Please consider what the God and Father of us all to Israel.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger (Non-Jew) sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and "thou shalt love him as thyself"; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

And again;

Is. 56: 6 Also "the sons of the stranger", that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So yes, the religious tradition of the mainstream, God of Abraham professing religious organization of Paul's Time, refused to Submit to God's Righteousness, and went about establishing their own. Salvation is of the Jews, according to the Christ. And a Jew is a faithful believer "of the heart", not of the flesh.

So their manmade judgments concerning gentiles, were truly absurd, as they were a repudiation of God's Own Commandments.

I think this is an important truth of the Bible to accept so as to understand Paul's teaching.

Please read the epistle for Romans all over again. The epistle is founded upon the need to solve the Jewish-Greek conflict. It is mainly a pastoral epistle, not a theological treatise.

Romans was written to show why the mainstream religious organization of that time, the Pharisees and Sadducees, were rejected by God.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

These religious zealots reasoned in their own human mind, "what is righteousness, what is Holy, what is clean", and polluted God's definition of these instructions HE gave them, choosing instead to "live by" and promote a righteousness founded in the imagination of their own hearts.

This is the foundation of all wickedness, and we are warned in the very beginning about these things.

Gen. 3: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Imagine her life if she had just "Glorified God, "as God", instead of seeking the "other voice" in the garden God placed her in.

We don't have to imagine, there are examples of folks all over the Bible who engaged in what is known as "Faith" in God. The kind of Faith Jesus had. But most folks really don't believe what is written in the Scriptures, or at least much of what is written.

I love the topics you pursue and the questions you ask. They are real, and relevant, and are uncomfortable to ponder sometimes. Sorry such a long post, but I truly love to ponder such things.