civic
Well-known member
Quote the passage and we can see what the text says
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
And one person from the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, because he has a spirit that makes him unable to speak; whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground, and he foams at the mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes stiff. And I told Your disciples so that they would cast it out, but they could not do it.”
And He answered them and *said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!” And they brought the boy to Him.
When he saw Him, the spirit immediately threw him into convulsions, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to kill him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” But Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’ All things are possible for the one who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief!”
When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again!” And after crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!” But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him, and he got up.
civic
Well-known member
Thanks you proved my point. He believed and asked Jesus for help.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
You couldn’t say that your faith now is a gift, but that 20 years ago it was not a gift, but you created your own faith. Could you?
So, when the Paul says that faith is a gift, he is talking about faith in general.
Faith is a gift before and after conversion.
Just think: if after so many years as a mature Christian God keeps being the source of your faith….how much do you expect to have needed God as the source of your faith when you converted?
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Reason matters infinitely more than every single iota, not, title or word, because the Holy Spirit inspired the authors’ reason, and illuminates readers’ reason. The importance of the Bible does not reside in what it says, but in what it does to your life.
Before the first verse of the Bible was written, God existed and man was rational. The Bible didn’t invent God. It was the other way around.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No. Did you read the passage with care?
This is what happened:
- The man was reproaching Jesus for the inability of his disciples to heal his boy.
- The man doubted of Jesus ability as well, and that’s why he said “If you can do anything…”
- Jesus noticed that and made him realize he had doubted: But Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’
- The man cried “ I believe” in his despair, because he realized that only by faith we could get his boy healed and he didn’t have that faith.
- Then he recognizes his insufficient faith: “Help my unbelief!”
- That man did not come to a Jesus with enough faith to get what he wanted. He needed faith and asked Jesus to trigger that faith.
- Jesus healed the boy.
It also shows that God is so loving, that he supplies what we lack.
I bear witness of this in my personal life, civic. I was that man. I was an atheist for 20 years. I realized I had lost faith, and couldn’t get healed.
So I recognized my unbelief and asked God that faith.
I didn’t come back to God because I had faith, but because God blessed me with faith.
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civic
Well-known member
Faith is never a gift to an unbeliever in the Bible
civic
Well-known member
Nope that’s your presuppositions talking nit the biblical narrative. He had faith and asked Jesus for help. True faith
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Then explain why Jesus reproached him for having doubted and why he confessed his unbelief.
Can belief and unbelief coexist towards the very same thing (eg ability of Jesus to heal a boy when his disciples have failed miserably).
That would be a logical contradiction, right?
Well… your argument has been refuted by Scripture.
Your faith, civic, is a gift of a God. It was a gift when you first converted, and is a gift now.
If something as basic as your nose and bank account are a gift from God, why don’t you admit that something as sublime as faith is a gift?
In this specific subject, @brightfame52 view is supported by Scriptures. Your view is not.
And the fact that he is right and you are wrong has no importance at all before the eyes of God.
In other things you are right and he’s wrong. And again, it does not matter at all.
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