civic
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Quote the passage and we can see what the text says
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Pancho Frijoles
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And one person from the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, because he has a spirit that makes him unable to speak; whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground, and he foams at the mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes stiff. And I told Your disciples so that they would cast it out, but they could not do it.”
And He answered them and *said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!” And they brought the boy to Him.
When he saw Him, the spirit immediately threw him into convulsions, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to kill him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” But Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’ All things are possible for the one who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief!”
When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again!” And after crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!” But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him, and he got up.
civic
Well-known member
Thanks you proved my point. He believed and asked Jesus for help.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
You couldn’t say that your faith now is a gift, but that 20 years ago it was not a gift, but you created your own faith. Could you?
So, when the Paul says that faith is a gift, he is talking about faith in general.
Faith is a gift before and after conversion.
Just think: if after so many years as a mature Christian God keeps being the source of your faith….how much do you expect to have needed God as the source of your faith when you converted?
****
Reason matters infinitely more than every single iota, not, title or word, because the Holy Spirit inspired the authors’ reason, and illuminates readers’ reason. The importance of the Bible does not reside in what it says, but in what it does to your life.
Before the first verse of the Bible was written, God existed and man was rational. The Bible didn’t invent God. It was the other way around.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No. Did you read the passage with care?
This is what happened:
- The man was reproaching Jesus for the inability of his disciples to heal his boy.
- The man doubted of Jesus ability as well, and that’s why he said “If you can do anything…”
- Jesus noticed that and made him realize he had doubted: But Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’
- The man cried “ I believe” in his despair, because he realized that only by faith we could get his boy healed and he didn’t have that faith.
- Then he recognizes his insufficient faith: “Help my unbelief!”
- That man did not come to a Jesus with enough faith to get what he wanted. He needed faith and asked Jesus to trigger that faith.
- Jesus healed the boy.
It also shows that God is so loving, that he supplies what we lack.
I bear witness of this in my personal life, civic. I was that man. I was an atheist for 20 years. I realized I had lost faith, and couldn’t get healed.
So I recognized my unbelief and asked God that faith.
I didn’t come back to God because I had faith, but because God blessed me with faith.
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civic
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Faith is never a gift to an unbeliever in the Bible
civic
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Nope that’s your presuppositions talking nit the biblical narrative. He had faith and asked Jesus for help. True faith
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Then explain why Jesus reproached him for having doubted and why he confessed his unbelief.
Can belief and unbelief coexist towards the very same thing (eg ability of Jesus to heal a boy when his disciples have failed miserably).
That would be a logical contradiction, right?
Well… your argument has been refuted by Scripture.
Your faith, civic, is a gift of a God. It was a gift when you first converted, and is a gift now.
If something as basic as your nose and bank account are a gift from God, why don’t you admit that something as sublime as faith is a gift?
In this specific subject, @brightfame52 view is supported by Scriptures. Your view is not.
And the fact that he is right and you are wrong has no importance at all before the eyes of God.
In other things you are right and he’s wrong. And again, it does not matter at all.
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civic
Well-known member
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.
Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its reserved for me only if Im one of Gods elect. No one can obey God, not even myself, unless I was born again and given a new nature, because man by nature are children of disobedience , BY NATURE Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
We cant act and do contrary to our nature, its like a squirrel trying to act like or be a fish
civic
Well-known member
so you never believed the gospel, never did what Paul instructed you to do in Romans 10:9-17.
You cannot be saved without following the biblical way of salvation below.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
You have it backwards.
- Romans 5:10-11 "we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son... saved by his life... we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"
civic
Well-known member
Amen !
brightfame52
Well-known member
You or me arent going to do what Paul wrote in Rom 10 if we havent been born again. Believing the Gospel is obeying Rom 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Now again man naturally is a child of disobedience !
brightfame52
Well-known member
I believe that passage but you dont. And that passage is strictly about and for the elect Rom 8:33
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
civic
Well-known member
I did exactly what Paul said in Romans 10- I remember the exact night back in 1980- I remember confessing Jesus as my Lord and believing and receiving the gospel message and becoming a new creation in Christ and experiencing the new birth. Forever changed in an instant after as Paul said in Romans 10 confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in my heart God raised Him from the dead.
next fallacy
I believe the importance of the Bible’s message demands it receive fair consideration, and the truthfulness of its message is observable, testable, and able to withstand scrutiny.
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16
civic
Well-known member
Amen
brightfame52
Well-known member
I cant tell you did what Paul said in Rom 10, I see a deceived soul who needs mercy applied to them, I hope it happens friend
civic
Well-known member
you deny Pauls teaching about salvation.
Its Sadducee just like the Pharisee. They like you were deceived. You like Saul was deceived until he became born again.
you still have yet to experience the new birth, the new man, the new creation in Christ.
you have no Damascus road experience. no born again experience of Gods spirit to transform your life. you are still in the flesh, the carnal mind which is hostile towards God and under the law. You have not been set free from the law and become a slave of Christ.
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