brightfame52
Well-known member
More works salvation conditioned on man
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
its impossible as we all know but some impose their manmade doctrines upon scripture. one cannot be saved or redeemed until they are able to understand and believe the gospel.
dwight92070
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Friend you may as well forget about salvation by grace, since you cleave to a works based salvation.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@dwight92070
What God knows about every natural man :
Man is by nature dead in trespasses and sins, and so, can never be justified by what he does,
God knows that before regeneration,being made alive, all men are without hope and God Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So did God know that these could meet the so called condition of Faith ?
Naturally we are dead in sin Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
We have no desire for the True God and will not seek Him Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
all men by nature have no will to choose the true God
So before the foundation of the world, God chose who would have Faith in Christ 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
What God knows about every natural man :
Man is by nature dead in trespasses and sins, and so, can never be justified by what he does,
God knows that before regeneration,being made alive, all men are without hope and God Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So did God know that these could meet the so called condition of Faith ?
Naturally we are dead in sin Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
We have no desire for the True God and will not seek Him Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
all men by nature have no will to choose the true God
So before the foundation of the world, God chose who would have Faith in Christ 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Johann
Well-known member
ELECTION/PREDESTINATION AND THE NEED FOR A THEOLOGICAL BALANCE
Opening Statement
Election is a wonderful doctrine. However, it is not a call to favoritism, but a call to be a channel, a tool, or means of others' redemption! In the Old Testament the term was used primarily for service; in the New Testament it is used primarily for salvation which issues in service. The Bible never reconciles the seeming contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will, but affirms them both! A good example of the biblical tension would be Romans 9 on God's sovereign choice and Romans 10 on mankind's necessary response (cf. Rom. 10:11,13; also note Phil. 2:12-13).
Key Text
The key to this theological tension may be found in Ephesians 1:4. Jesus is God's elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (Karl Barth). Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind's need (Karl Barth). Ephesians 1:4 also helps clarify the issue by asserting that the goal of predestination is not heaven, but holiness (Christlikeness). We are often attracted to the benefits of the gospel and ignore the responsibilities! God's call (election) is for time as well as eternity!
Eastern Literature
Doctrines come in relation to other truths, not as single, unrelated truths (see SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE). A good analogy would be a constellation versus a single star. God presents truth in eastern, not western, genres. We must not remove the tension caused by dialectical (paradoxical) pairs of doctrinal truths:
predestination vs. human free will
security of the believers vs. the need for perseverance
original sin vs. volitional sin
sinlessness (perfectionism) vs. sinning less
initial instantaneous justification and sanctification vs. progressive sanctification
Christian freedom vs. Christian responsibility
God's transcendence vs. God's immanence
God as ultimately unknowable vs. God as knowable in Scripture
the Kingdom of God as present vs. future consummation
repentance as a gift of God vs. repentance as a necessary human covenantal response
Jesus as divine vs. Jesus as human
Jesus as equal to the Father vs. Jesus as subservient to the Father
Covenant
The theological concept of "covenant" unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant faith response from mankind (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21; see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT). Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other! Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology!
Exegetical Notes
Titus 2:11 is a balance to other NT passages on election. I thought it might be theologically helpful to provide my commentary notes from Romans 8:29 and chapter 9, as well as Ephesians 1.
Romans 8:29 ‒ Paul uses "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before") twice, here and 11:2. In 11:2 it refers to God's covenant love for Israel before time began. Remember that the term "know" in Hebrew related to intimate, personal relationship, not to facts about someone (cf. Gen. 4:1; Jer. 1:5). Here it was included in a chain of eternal events (cf. Rom. 8:29-30). This term was linked with predestination. However, it must be stated that God's foreknowledge is not the basis of election because if that were so, then election would be based on fallen humanity's future response, which would be human performance. This term is also found in Acts 26:5; 1 Pet. 1:2,20 and 2 Pet. 3:17.
"foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before")
The terms "foreknow" and "predestine" are both compounds with the PREPOSITION "before" and, therefore, should be translated "to know before," "to set bounds before," or "mark off before." The definitive passages on predestination in the NT are Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:13-14; and Romans 9. These texts obviously stress that God is sovereign. He is in total control of all things. There is a preset divine plan being worked out in time. However, this plan is not arbitrary or selective. It is based, not only on God's sovereignty and foreknowledge, but on His unchanging character of love, mercy, and undeserved grace. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN.
We must be careful of our western (American) individualism or our evangelical zeal coloring this wonderful truth. We must also guard against being polarized into the historical, theological conflicts between Augustine versus Pelegius or Calvinism versus Arminianism.
"predestined" (proorizō, "to set the bounds before")
Predestination is not a doctrine meant to limit God's love, grace, and mercy nor to exclude some from the gospel. It is meant to strengthen believers by molding their worldview. God is for all mankind (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God is in control of all things. Who or what can separate us from Him (cf. Rom. 8:31-39)? God views all history as present; humans are time bound. Our perspective and mental abilities are limited. There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will. It is a covenantal structure. This is another example of truth given in dialectical tension. Biblical doctrines are presented from different perspectives. They often appear paradoxical. The truth is a balance between the seemingly opposite pairs. We must not remove the tension by picking one of the truths. We must not isolate any biblical truth into a compartment by itself.
It is also important to add that the goal of election is not only heaven when we die, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15). We were chosen to be "holy and blameless." God chooses to change us so that others may see the change and respond by faith to God in Christ. Predestination is not a personal privilege, but a covenantal responsibility. This is the major truth of the passage. This is the goal of Christianity. Holiness is God's will for every believer. God's election is to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4), not a special standing. The image of God, which was given to man in creation (cf. Gen. 1:26; 5:1,3; 9:6), is to be restored.
"conformed to the image of His Son" ‒ God's ultimate goal is the restoration of the image lost in the Fall. Believers are foreordained to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4).
Romans 9
Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (the other being Eph. 1:3-14), while chapter 10 states humans' free will clearly and repeatedly (cf. "everyone" Rom. 9:4; "whosoever" 9:11,13; "all" 9:12 [twice]). Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true! Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical half-truths. Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelegianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error. Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid.
This same truth (found in Rom. 9:23) is stated in Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:4,11. This chapter is the strongest expression of God's sovereignty in the NT. There can be no dispute that God is in total charge of creation and redemption. This great truth should never be softened or diminished. However, it must be balanced with God's choice of covenant as a means of relating to human creation, made in His image. It is surely true that some OT covenants, like Genesis 15, are unconditional and do not relate at all to human response, but other covenants are conditioned on human response (e.g., Eden, Noah, Moses, David). God has a plan of redemption for His creation; no human can affect this plan. God has chosen to allow individuals to participate in His plans. This opportunity for participation is a theological tension between sovereignty (Romans 9) and human free will (Romans 10).
It is not appropriate to select one biblical emphasis and ignore another. There is tension between doctrines because eastern people present truth in dialectical or tension-filled pairs. Doctrines must be held in relationship to other doctrines. Truth is a mosaic of truths.
Ephesians 1
Election is a wonderful doctrine. However, it is not a call to favoritism, but a call to be a channel, a tool, or means of others' redemption! In the OT the term was used primarily for service; in the NT it is used primarily for salvation which issues in service. The Bible never reconciles the seeming contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will, but affirms them both! A good example of the biblical tension would be Romans 9 on God's sovereign choice and Romans 10 on mankind's necessary response (cf. Rom. 10:11,13).
The key to this theological tension may be found in Eph. 1:4. Jesus is God's elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (Karl Barth). Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind's need (Karl Barth). Ephesians 1:4 also helps clarify the issue by asserting that the goal of predestination is not heaven only, but holiness (Christlikeness). We are often attracted to the benefits of the gospel and ignore the responsibilities! God's call (election) is for time as well as eternity!
Doctrines come in relation to other truths, not as single, unrelated truths. A good analogy would be a constellation versus a single star. God presents truth in eastern, not western, genres. We must not remove the tension caused by dialectical (paradoxical) pairs of doctrinal truths (God as transcendent versus God as immanent; security vs. perseverance; Jesus as equal with the Father vs. Jesus as subservient to the Father; Christian freedom vs. Christian responsibility to a covenant partner, etc).
The theological concept of "covenant" unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant faith response from man. Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other! Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology.
"He chose us" in Eph. 1:4 is an AORIST MIDDLE INDICATIVE which emphasizes the subject. This focuses on the Father's choice before time. God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism, nor in the ultra-Calvinistic sense as some versus others, but in the covenantal sense. God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5-6). God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ. God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44,65). This text and Romans 9 are the biblical basis for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin.
God chose believers not only to salvation (justification), but also to sanctification (cf. Colossians 1: 10-12). This could relate to (1) our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) or (2) God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19). God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!
"In Him" is a key concept of Eph. 1:4. The Father's blessings, grace, and salvation flow through Christ (cf. John 14:6). Notice the repetition of this grammatical form (LOCATIVE OF SPHERE) in Eph. 1:3, "in Christ"; 1:4, "in Him"; 1:7, "in Him"; 1:9, "in Him"; 1:10, "in Christ," "in Him"; 1:12, "in Christ" and 1:13, "in Him" (twice). Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind (Karl Barth). Jesus is the elect man and all are potentially elect in Him. All of God the Father's blessings flow through Christ.
The phrase "before the foundation of the world" is also used in Matt. 25:34; John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:19-20 and Rev. 13:8. It shows the Triune God's redemptive activity even before Gen. 1:1. Humans are limited by their sense of time; everything to us is past, present, and future, but not to God.
The goal of predestination is holiness, not privilege. God's call is not to a selected few of Adam's children, but to all! It is a call to be what God intended mankind to be, like Himself (cf. 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13); in His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). To turn predestination into a theological tenet instead of a holy life is a tragedy. Often our theologies speak louder than the biblical text.
The term "blameless" (amomos) or "free from blemish" is used of
Jesus (cf. Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19)
Zacharias and Elizabeth (cf. Luke 1:6)
Paul (cf. Phil. 3:6)
all true Christians (cf. Phil. 2:15; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23)
God's unalterable will for every Christian is not only heaven later, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; Gal. 4:19; 1 Pet. 1:2). Believers are to reflect God's characteristics to a lost world for the purpose of evangelism.
Grammatically the phrase "in love" in Titus 2:2 could go with either Titus 2:4 or 5. However, when this phrase is used in other places in Ephesians it always refers to human love for God (cf. Eph. 3:17; 4:2,15,16).
In Eph. 1:5 the phrase "He predestined us" is an AORIST ACTIVE PARTICIPLE. This Greek term is a compound of "before" and "mark off." It refers to God's predetermined redemptive plan (cf. Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:28; 17:31; Rom. 8:29-30). Predestination is one of several truths related to mankind's salvation. It is part of a theological pattern or series of related truths. It was never meant to be emphasized in isolation! Biblical truth has been given in a series of tension-filled, paradoxical pairs. Denominationalism has tended to remove the biblical tension by emphasizing only one of the dialectical truths (predestination versus human free will; security of the believer versus perseverance of the saints; original sin versus volitional sin; sinlessness versus sinning less; instantaneously declared sanctification versus progressive sanctification; faith versus works; Christian freedom versus Christian responsibility; transcendence versus immanence).
God's choice is not based on foreknowledge of human performance, but on His gracious character (cf. Eph. 1:7,9,11). He wishes that all (not just some special ones like the Gnostics or modern-day ultra-Calvinists) would be saved (cf. Ezek. 18:21-23,32; John 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God's grace (God's character) is the theological key to this passage (cf. Eph. 1:6a, 7c, 9b), as God's mercy is the key to the other passage on predestination, Romans 9-11.
Fallen mankind's only hope is the grace and mercy of God (cf. Isa. 53:6 and several other OT texts quoted in Rom. 3:9-18). It is crucial in interpreting these first theological chapters to realize that Paul emphasizes those things which are totally unrelated to human performance: predestination (Ephesians 1), grace (Ephesians 2), and God's eternal plan of redemption (mystery, Eph. 2:11- 3:13). This was to counterbalance the emphasis of the false teachers on human merit and pride.
Recently (2023) I have been aware of another Bible teacher who has an understanding of this theological issue that I fully agree with. His name is Steve Gregg and his website is www.narrowpath.com. I hope you will look at his teachings on Calvinism on YouTube.
"Calvinism Overview" (2019)
"Calvinism Debate" (5 lectures)
"God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation" (9 lessons)
For a good discussion on the necessity of human freedom and the historical rise of Augustinian/Calvinistic predestination see
Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 337-348
also note Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., pp. 920-940
YouTube videos of Steve Gregg
"Calvinism Q and A"
"The Distinctives of Calvinism and Non-Calvinism"
his website is www.thenarrowpath.com
Election/Predestination and the Need for a Theological Balance
Election & Predestination -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Johann
That statement by Barth is error, all are not potentially elect in Christ.
This statement is error, the elect are always a remnant of the whole, hence the remnant according to the election of grace Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
If you ignore the remnant aspect, you deny Grace altogether. Its always a remnant whether out of the jews or out of the Gentiles Acts 15:14-17
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of[election] them a people for his name.
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Residue and remnant are the same !
That statement by Barth is error, all are not potentially elect in Christ.
This statement is error, the elect are always a remnant of the whole, hence the remnant according to the election of grace Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
If you ignore the remnant aspect, you deny Grace altogether. Its always a remnant whether out of the jews or out of the Gentiles Acts 15:14-17
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of[election] them a people for his name.
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Residue and remnant are the same !
civic
Well-known member
So you have a dead faith correct
Johann
Well-known member
I have no problem with this. The fact that you disagree.
J....
--and this.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its a problem for you if you believe Salvation by Grace is for all mankind like some universalist do.
Johann
Well-known member
Not promoting universalism but salvation by grace is for all mankind-
Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV):
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
This verse emphasizes that salvation is a gift of grace, not earned by human effort.
John 3:16 (ESV):
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Here, "the world" indicates the broad scope of God's love and the opportunity for salvation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (ESV):
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
This passage clearly states God's desire for all people to be saved.
Romans 10:12-13 (ESV):
“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This emphasizes the universality of salvation for all who believe.
Titus 2:11 (ESV):
“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.”
This verse explicitly states that grace has brought salvation for everyone.
Acts 2:21 (ESV):
“And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
This reinforces the inclusivity of salvation through calling on the Lord.
Matthew 11:28 (ESV):
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Jesus invites all who are weary to come to Him, indicating His open offer of salvation.
I can give you this in Hebrew or Greek if you want.
Good news, is it not?
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Election to salvation is in Christ
Ephesians 1:3–4 (LEB) — 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love,
verses 11-13 concern the birthrite not eternal destiny.
Nothing about an elect remnant in John 3:16
You are reading your theology into scripture again
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats the elect remnant
brightfame52
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Election is for service and corporate and you dismissed all the Scriptures I have given you which means you read selectively, no consistency.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Election is for service[spiritual] as it follows salvation and accompanies it Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works/service, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1 Thess 1:9
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
Johann
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
No we are not. You deny Salvation by Grace. Whenever a person promotes salvation for all mankind that's a serious error. And Im sure you meant something different by service than I did.
