Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[civic]

I think we are all known by God and loved by God since the foundation of the world. We are in his Logos. It is in that sense that we all have always been "in Christ", from God's perspective.
But then, we humans realize that at different moments. When we realize it (accept the gospel conciously) then we become "in Christ" from our perspective.

Were the people of Athens to whom Paul preached in the Areopagus already "in God"? Yes and No.
Yes, because along with Paul, they existed, lived and moved in God.
No, because they hadn't realized it yet.

Paul says in Ephesians 1 we became in Christ after hearing and believing the gospel, not before.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul says in Ephesians 1 we became in Christ after hearing and believing the gospel, not before.

I agree.
We become in Christ when we accept the Gospel.
But we accept the Gospel because in God's love, sovereignty and foreknowledge, we have been chosen to accept it before the foundation of the world.

Let me try to use an example to illustrate what I think

A mother loves her baby. As the baby grows and turns into a child, he learns to love her mother... or doesn't he?
Was the baby predestined to love her mother? Or did the baby freely choose to love her mother?
Exceptions apart, like sociopathic children, we all end up loving our mothers if our mothers have loved us. But we can't say that our mothers exerted coercion and violated our free will to make us love them. It is just that their love was, so to speak, "irresistible".
Our mothers loved us first... and sooner or later we loved them back, whatever our errors in valuing such love.

When did I become the child of my mother? From her perspective, I always was, even before being born.
From my perspective, when I realized I was, and accepted the implications of that relationship.

 

[TomL]

I think we are all known by God and loved by God since the foundation of the world. We are in his Logos. It is in that sense that we all have always been "in Christ", from God's perspective.
But then, we humans realize that at different moments. When we realize it (accept the gospel conciously) then we become "in Christ" from our perspective.

Were the people of Athens to whom Paul preached in the Areopagus already "in God"? Yes and No.
Yes, because along with Paul, they existed, lived and moved in God.
No, because they hadn't realized it yet.

The verse is

Romans 16:7 (NASB 2020) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

It is not concerned with what you think.

It involves a reality that some were in Christ before others

For one is not in Christ until he believes

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

 

[brightfame52]

Um you are assuming that references salvation rather than the birthrite

Im not assuming,maybe you are

 

[TomL]

Im not assuming,maybe you are

Seeing as it does not mention salvation and we know there was an issue of the birth rite being decided

Yes you are assuming

 

[brightfame52]

Seeing as it does not mention salvation and we know there was an issue of the birth rite being decided

Yes you are assuming

No mention to you

 

[TomL]

No mention to you

Seeing as it does not mention salvation and we know there was an issue of the birth rite being decided

Yes you are assuming

 

[brightfame52]

Seeing as it does not mention salvation and we know there was an issue of the birth rite being decided

Yes you are assuming

No mention to you

 

[John Evens]

The Calvinist application of unconditional election reflects the erroneous perception of the unbelieving Jews in the first century, who supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, simply on account of being born as children of Abraham in the flesh. John the Baptist dealt with this issue as well:

When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don’t presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” Matt 3:7–10

 

[TomL]

No mention to you

The words are simply not there

You add them from your theology, not the text

 

[brightfame52]

The words are simply not there

You add them from your theology, not the text

No mention to you

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Calvinist application of unconditional election reflects the erroneous perception of the unbelieving Jews in the first century, who supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, simply on account of being born as children of Abraham in the flesh. John the Baptist dealt with this issue as well:

When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don’t presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” Matt 3:7–10

Hi John

Your comment is very interesting.
Jews supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, which is not the same that being unconditionally saved.
Let's remember that "salvation" from Jewish perspective had to do much more with the events during life than the events afterlife.

Although elected by God, the Jew knew that, if he was not loyal to God, he could suffer humiliation, invasions, poverty, despair, diseases, a premature and shameful death, etc. Jews understood their condition as a nation subordinated to the Romans, despite being elect people.

To go from "election" to "salvation", they felt they needed the Messiah for spiritual and material liberation.

So Paul takes the notion of being elect (which he never abandoned as a Pharisee, as he makes clear in Romans that Israel is still elect, and will be saved eventually), but translates it into the election of all believers in all nations.
Now we all should feel elected by God from the foundation of the world.
But again, "election" is one thing, "salvation" is another thing.

We were elected to enjoy the spiritual blessings of the Kingdom of God, the blessings of the Messiah, but salvation is a continuos process. Something God operates in us since the beginning, but that does not stop at the beginning.

 

[brightfame52]

The grace of God is about God’s unconditional love and election. We know it is unconditional because God chose those He wanted to be His people before He even laid the foundation of the world, before He made them, before they had done any good or evil ( Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4). If God’s election of grace was conditional, how could He ever have chosen His people prior to their being created? How can anyone have met any condition prior to their creation?
The point in choosing a people for Himself before the foundation of the world is to show that God’s choosing was in no way conditioned on what those people did[Rom 9:11], or who they were. Election being based on the grace of God is further evidence which shows that man is dead in sins and can do nothing to come to the only true God
Election is based solely on Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works[conditions]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The grace of God is about God’s unconditional love and election. We know it is unconditional because God chose those He wanted to be His people before He even laid the foundation of the world, before He made them, before they had done any good or evil ( Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4). If God’s election of grace was conditional, how could He ever have chosen His people prior to their being created? How can anyone have met any condition prior to their creation?

I agree with you, but please bear in mind that God also chose us to be persons with free will.
It is part of the process, part of his "game".

When a woman planned to have a son she chose that son before its birth, to be the recipient of her love.
Was the son in some way forced to love her mother?
No. The mother created the son with free will included. She wanted him to develop genuine love to her, a love in freedom.
But then, who can resist (at least in the long run) the love of a loving mother?

Was the son predestined to love his mother? Did this violate his free will?

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with you, but please bear in mind that God also chose us to be persons with free will.
It is part of the process, part of his "game".

When a woman planned to have a son she chose that son before its birth, to be the recipient of her love.
Was the son in some way forced to love her mother?
No. The mother created the son with free will included. She wanted him to develop genuine love to her, a love in freedom.
But then, who can resist (at least in the long run) the love of a loving mother?

Was the son predestined to love his mother? Did this violate his free will?

Rabbit trail

 

[David Koberstein]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvific purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6


Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.


I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

Doctrines Studies - Predestination

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player.lightcast.com

 

[dwight92070]

Mans portion is determined by the will of God, thus Paul says, " The purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth," ( Romans 9:11 ). Election is not based on any thing foreseen in the creature, but of the will of the God exclusively, and for His pleasure. Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Unconditional Election of some was for His Pleasure !

You are misinterpreting Romans 9:11. TomL is correct. God did not choose Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost. He chose Jacob to be in the line of the Messiah, but not Jacob. That choice was unconditional, but when He saves people, it is always conditional on their faith. And it is also according to the foreknowledge of God - 1 Peter 1:1-2 shows that believers are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. He knows which ones will have faith and which ones will not. No works are involved. Either someone believes or they don't. The terms "chosen" and "elect", which are the same Greek word in the New Testament are a reference to Christ Himself, for He is the Chosen One of God. Then they are also a reference to the body of Christ, who have been chosen in Him because of their faith - "... just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless ..." Ephesians 1:4 , again through faith.

So you are misusing the term "chosen", which also shows that unconditional election for salvation is a false doctrine - just as all of TULIP is.

 

[brightfame52]

You are misinterpreting Romans 9:11. TomL is correct. God did not choose Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost. He chose Jacob to be in the line of the Messiah, but not Jacob. That choice was unconditional, but when He saves people, it is always conditional on their faith. And it is also according to the foreknowledge of God - 1 Peter 1:1-2 shows that believers are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. He knows which ones will have faith and which ones will not. No works are involved. Either someone believes or they don't. The terms "chosen" and "elect", which are the same Greek word in the New Testament are a reference to Christ Himself, for He is the Chosen One of God. Then they are also a reference to the body of Christ, who have been chosen in Him because of their faith - "... just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless ..." Ephesians 1:4 , again through faith.

So you are misusing the term "chosen", which also shows that unconditional election for salvation is a false doctrine - just as all of TULIP is.

This is error.

 

[civic]

You are misinterpreting Romans 9:11. TomL is correct. God did not choose Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost. He chose Jacob to be in the line of the Messiah, but not Jacob. That choice was unconditional, but when He saves people, it is always conditional on their faith. And it is also according to the foreknowledge of God - 1 Peter 1:1-2 shows that believers are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. He knows which ones will have faith and which ones will not. No works are involved. Either someone believes or they don't. The terms "chosen" and "elect", which are the same Greek word in the New Testament are a reference to Christ Himself, for He is the Chosen One of God. Then they are also a reference to the body of Christ, who have been chosen in Him because of their faith - "... just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless ..." Ephesians 1:4 , again through faith.

So you are misusing the term "chosen", which also shows that unconditional election for salvation is a false doctrine - just as all of TULIP is.

ditto

 

[dwight92070]

The grace of God is about God’s unconditional love and election. We know it is unconditional because God chose those He wanted to be His people before He even laid the foundation of the world, before He made them, before they had done any good or evil ( Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4). If God’s election of grace was conditional, how could He ever have chosen His people prior to their being created? How can anyone have met any condition prior to their creation?
The point in choosing a people for Himself before the foundation of the world is to show that God’s choosing was in no way conditioned on what those people did[Rom 9:11], or who they were. Election being based on the grace of God is further evidence which shows that man is dead in sins and can do nothing to come to the only true God
Election is based solely on Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works[conditions]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[brightfame52] "How can anyone have met any condition prior to their creation?"

Nobody said they did. But God knew they would meet the condition of faith after they were created.
Before the foundation of the world, God chose to save those who chose to have faith in Christ.

The "God" of your doctrine is a monster who chooses that most of mankind will burn in hell, without them having any chance whatsoever to freely choose to follow Christ. Your "God" is not the God of the Bible.