Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Red Baker said:
Maybe you should have left your rellgion many years ago, so did I~ I but I left arminianism almost fifty years ago, in my mid twenties~a little sooner than you did!
Click to expand...


Calvinism, Arminianism, Catholicism, JWism, what is the difference? They all promote the religious traditions and doctrines of men over God's Judgments and Commandments.
Red Baker said:
Yes, men do pick and choose scriptures to support their system, nothing new under the sun. But, if you think I do, then by all means prove it. I have battled your kind for fifty years.
Click to expand...

The Scriptures just did.

What God did see was that if he did not have an election of grace, then none would love and serve him. Election is not based upon God for seeing the goodness of man in believing and repenting and loving him.

Psalms 14:1-4~"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."
Click to expand...

There are men who "Choose life", who "Choose God" as their refuge. In your wicked philosophy, God has to force men to Love Him, to respect Him, to Honor Him, and the rest HE withholds Life, His righteousness, and His loving kindness from.

This is why you had to omit the last part of the chapter. I have heard you guys quote Paul and David to justify your lawless religion my whole life.

I admit, Calvinism is a great marketing strategy for the religious business you are working for. What a seductive religion that basically preaches, "If you go to our church, and adopt our religious philosophy, it's because God picked your name from His hat". Not because you "Denied yourself", or "Humbled yourself" or chose from the choices God has set before you.

The philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting, that God chooses winners and losers based on some invisible Holy Lottery, which is what Calvinism peddles, is an insidious deception. God saw you coming Red, and warned me about you.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

To believe the religion you have been snared by, why does God even warn us? Since HE picks the winners and losers, they have no choice anyway. If a man walks after the imagination of his own heart, God made Him do it. If HE listens to God and honors God with obedience, God made Him do that as well.

For others following along, lets look at Psalms 14 infected with Calvinism.

1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, (God made him a fool, he didn't have a choice) There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (God withheld His Good from the Fool HE created)

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. (God withheld understanding, and withheld the ability to Seek God from those whose names HE didn't draw from His Holy Lottery)

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (They have no Choice, because God created them to die forever)

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? (God withheld knowledge of Him, and created them to be "workers of Iniquity" ) who eat up my people (Those men God created to believe Him) as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. (God didn't allow them to call upon Him)

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. (God created the generation of the righteous because if HE hadn't "No one would love Him".

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. (God creates men from the foundation of the world to love Him, Trust Him and serve Him, if HE didn't, no one would love Him)

Red Baker said:
You took my words out of context in which I said them! That's wicked on your part Mr. Pharisee. I clearly said:

I made my point concerning that if there had not been an election of grace, then none would have ever been saved from their sins and condemnation, none. Of course the election grace "cause them to loved, and fear God", otherwise they would have never done so!
Click to expand...

By taking a verse here and a verse there, you can convince the unlearned that "NO ONE" would Love God unless God forced them. This popular religious philosophy is an insidious lie, and shows how men who promote it really feel about God, and HIS Instruction in righteousness. It's right up there with another popular falsehood that Jesus overcame sin because God gave HIM powers no other human has ever had. That when the going gets tough for men, as it does for all men, Jesus overcame because HE kicked in God powers not available to any Human ever. And yet God still rewarded Him with great Glory. Or that God heard Abraham's children in Egypt, and had compassion on them, and did mighty works to gain their trust and follow Him out of Egypt, only to place on their necks Laws so many in number (Some preach 613) and impossible to obey that they couldn't obey them. But God lied to them and told them they could obey and then killed them by the thousands when they didn't. So Jesus had to come along and save mankind from God and His Laws.

These wicked philosophies and others, promoted by you and Kenneth Copeland and others who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ, is why the Jesus "of the Bible" tells men to "come out of her", and is why I left this world's religions you have adopted and are promoting to others, years ago.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

How wicked to preach to others that God forced Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to Love Him and Honor Him with obedience, because unless God forced a man to Love Him, no man would love Him. And then withheld the same from Jerusalem and the Pharisees, and yet Judges them by their works and rejects them from the Kingdom of God.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
As I've said before, you can prove that it was possible for them to obey the Old Covenant if you can name a single person (besides Jesus) who followed the law.
Click to expand...
Obviously you didn't carefully read my post. I named three persons who kept the law. Zechariah, Elizabeth, and Paul. You need scripture?

Here it is: Luke 1:6 "They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord." They were the parents of John the Baptist. I think it would be safe to say that John the Baptist himself also kept the law. So that's 3 people who fully kept the law right there.

Philippians 3:6 Paul said that he was a "Hebrew of Hebrews; ... as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness which is in the law, found blameless." So now you have 4 people who fully kept the law.

Do you want more examples? Okay, how about Joseph? Matthew 1:19:

"And her husband Joseph, since he was a righteous man ..."

How about Mary herself? Luke 1:28 and 30:

Gabriel said to her "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." and "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God."

How about another one? Simeon Luke 2:25 "... this man was righteous and devout, ..."

There you have 7 persons who fully kept the law, and there were undoubtedly many more. Anna, the prophetess, Luke 2:36; Nicodemus, who came to Jesus at night, John 3:1-2; Nathanael, of whom Jesus said, "Here is an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit.", etc.

Also, it is quite likely that the twelve apostles themselves, before Jesus called them, lived fully according to the law.

You may be making the mistake of thinking that to fully keep the law, one must be without sin. But that's not true. I'm sure that all 7 of these people sinned at one time or another - but when they did, they obeyed the law by offering the appropriate sacrifice or taking the commanded action.

Even though they fully kept the law, and were called righteous, ultimately their righteousness (and ours as well) was purchased when Jesus died on the cross - but God considered all of them righteous. But it was their faith in God that gave them a right standing with Him, as was the case for Abraham, and all the righteous men and women from the Old Testament, that we read about in Hebrews 11, some of which never lived under the law, while others did live under the law. Even today, our faith in Jesus saves us - and we are not under the Mosaic law, but under the law of Christ.
 
as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

so so true!!!!!!
 
Red Baker said:
Eve, I've read your post and it would be impossible to discuss scriptures with you since you use no scriptures in explaining yourself. I do not mind taking this further, but only in another thread, not this one.
Click to expand...
I don't feel a new thread would help. The problem is that I am not bound by a sola scriptura doctrine, started by the vatican.

I was in academia 20 years. I read and taught ancients and medieval and early modern philosophy, with a theology emphasis. Basically, I cross read and draw from different things But, of course God's words give the context of. That said, there is nothing wrong with studying the enemy... And reading every text amounts to that, e.g., the hieroglyphs are not God's version, but the gloating of the evil realm as they discuss making eden fall and creation of their own reality from the spoils. Analogous to here, when a country invades another and appropriates its goods. Of course on a lesser scale.

I believe that the human doctrine of sola scriptura would be correct, if the words are properly translated, which even evangelical pastors, and others, in academia, admit is incorrect and one even said 'it's a copy paste and best guess.' So, not so inspired there. Another problem is that the modes of exegesis are based on form of exegesis of Greek theology, which are not usable for His words. So there has been much mixing of concepts...which scripture identifies as the 'sealed vision.'

Sola scriptura, as promulgated by the vatican, was really a way to keep souls from ever enquiring Him, hearing Hom, and studying prophets on their own. a form of 'mainstream official news.' Of course 'His Words alone' is a correct expression...but they need to be His Words, and not the scriptura assembled by esau scribes.

So you are correct, I do not use the existing "translations" of what some "human authority" says He said. and the point for me is to retranslate, cross read and find out what it really says... yes, that means that when people are used to what they were traditionally taught, I am outlier.

God is utter sweet Love. If I make a mistake but I am sincerely inquiring, that is not heresy. That is not willful deception. If I get to where He is in paradise and I made a mistake, then I hope He will forgive me. That's all I can say about that. I am not a pastor. I am simply a visitor to this social forum, expressing my thoughts.

So no, no threads please.

Red Baker said:
So you can start a thread or maybe the moderator(s) can moved your posts for you to start one keep from hijacking this one.
Click to expand...

I don't believe I have hijacked this one, and of course, I can post wherever I like. Even if my view of the OP is not yours, the threads are public and I can post. I think that is definitely best for me to leave moderation to the mods. You are always able to ignore me or simply skip over what I say.

Red Baker said:
A reminder~we test all spirits by the word of God, period.
Click to expand...

I simply don't believe the KJV or Septuagint and modern bibles from those, are His Words. One must separate what He said from the evil words mixed into what He said.

Red Baker said:
The book of Enoch doesn't count as scriptures.
Click to expand...

I never said it counted as anything beyond an ancient text. In fact, to me, KJV doesn't count, and neither does septuagint. So there is that.

Red Baker said:
Christ exhorted us to search the scriptures; the early Christian search the scriptures to see of those things were so; so, all noble believers search the word of God and test every spirit by God's testimony of what is truth or what is science fiction, or a lie from Satan who is a spirit working in the hearts of his children.
Click to expand...
Yes, we are to search, not to blindly follow wrong translations.
Red Baker said:

John 5:39​


“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

Acts 17:11​


“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

1st John 4:1​


“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

For now, I have one word for you:

Isaiah 8:20​


“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply.
 
Last edited:
@TomL

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Click to expand...

Faith comes by and with Grace

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

All of the seed of Abraham is given faith by grace
 
For the Calvinist, “unconditional election” means that God does not foresee any action or condition, including faith, that induces him to choose one individual over another. Rather, election rests on God’s arbitrary decision to effectuate faith in whomever he is pleased to save. John Calvin expressed it in this way:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Some are predestined to salvation, others to damnation.… Regarding the lost: it was His good pleasure to doom to destruction.… Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and He can give life or death at His pleasure, He dispenses and ordains by His judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify His name in their perdition.

Ironically, the Calvinist application of unconditional election reflects the erroneous perception of the unbelieving Jews in the first century, who supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, simply on account of being born as children of Abraham in the flesh. John the Baptist dealt with this issue as well:

When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don’t presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7–10)

Paul dealt with this same issue writing to the church at Rome when he stated that “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Neither is it the case that all of Abraham’s children are his descendants.… That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring” (Rom 9:6–8). So, in the same way that John the Baptist and the apostles had to deal with the perceived unconditional election of all Jews in the flesh, modern-day Christian apologists must deal with the perceived unconditional election that Calvinists suppose upon themselves.


Leighton Flowers, “A Critique of Unconditional Election,” in Calvinism
 
Rowan said:
Ironically, the Calvinist application of unconditional election reflects the erroneous perception of the unbelieving Jews in the first century, who supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, simply on account of being born as children of Abraham in the flesh. John the Baptist dealt with this issue as well:
Click to expand...
And boy did they get a surprise

Romans 9:30–32 (UASV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
 
TomL said:
And boy did they get a surprise

Romans 9:30–32 (UASV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Click to expand...
You got that right Tom, When we humans get too full of ourselves we stumble over that stumbling stone.
 
Regarding #1226:
You mention John 1:12 and say that that shows that God gives them the power to believe to become His children. You say that my interpretation disregards the context and yet you don't mention one important phrase in that verse: "But as many as received Him ..." So man does play a part in his salvation, as has always been the case. We must receive Him, which is synonymous with "believe". We must exercise faith, which is done, as it is described here, by receiving Him, Jesus. Then, after that, verse 12 says that to those who receive Him, He gave the right (more accurate translation than "power") to become children of God.

Your statement was the "power to believe was given to those who believes", which is not what the verse says. You imply that our salvation is all of God. In a sense, that is true, but it doesn't totally agree with the Bible. Over and over, the Bible tells us that we must do a particular thing in order to be saved - that is to believe in Jesus. God designed the world and us in such a way, that He will not do that for us. That is our responsibility - He will not believe for us. He could have even done that for us, but then we would just be pawns in a chess game, with God playing on both sides. What king of a relationship could we have with a God like that? Who makes every decision for us? There would be no relationship, no friendship, no love.

Regarding my understanding of verse 13:
Were you born of blood? Of course you were. Were you born of the will of the flesh? Of course. Even if you were the result of a woman being raped (no offense meant, just a possible scenario to make a point), it was still the will of the flesh that that happened, not the will of God. Were you born of the will of a man? Yes, we all were, either the will of our father and mother or someone else.
So to understand verse 13 by saying "Not only this ... but that" is in order here. It's called a double-negative.
We were not only born of blood, and the will of the flesh, and the will of man, but (also of) God.
Our first birth was being "born of water" - John 3:5, which is also called "born of the flesh" in John 3:6, or our natural birth from our mother's womb. Our second birth was being "born of the spirit" in both verses 5 and 6, which is also called being born again.

There are other examples of double-negatives in the Bible:

Matthew 6:13 "And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
Does God lead us into temptation? Yes, actually He does. He even led Jesus into temptation:
Matthew 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
If He did that with Jesus, He will also do that with us. Why? To test us.

So given that truth, the above verse is actually saying:
And do not only lead us into temptation, but also deliver us from evil.

Look at John 6:27 "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, ..."
Is God against us working for our food? Of course not.
What He actually is saying is:
Do not only work for the food that perishes, but also for the food that lasts for eternal life.

So I think the double-negative is also being used in John 1:13.
 
TomL said:
The verse contradicts you

It shows faith as a condition is consistent with gracei
Click to expand...
Faith is by Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by[according to] grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The elect believe by or because of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith and Grace agree in Gender here, showing they are of one and the same, now is Grace of ourselves ?
 
e v e said:
I don't feel a new thread would help. The problem is that I am not bound by a sola scriptura doctrine, started by the vatican.
Click to expand...
Greetings Eve~this will be very short.

The RCC do not believe in sola scriptura, because they believe their sacred traditions override/trump scripture, or are least on the same par with scriptures. According to Roman Catholic doctrine, a Pope speaking ex cathedra on issues of faith or morals is infallible. Regardless what the scriptures say.

Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Biblical

Is the Reformed Church doctrine of Sola Scriptura a Biblical teaching? It is the teaching principle that the Bible is God's wholey inspired word, and the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. by Tony Warren
www.mountainretreatorg.net

e v e said:
I was in academia 20 years. I read and taught ancients and medieval and early modern philosophy, with a theology emphasis. Basically, I cross read and draw from different things But, of course God's words give the context of. That said, there is nothing wrong with studying the enemy... And reading every text amounts to that, e.g., the hieroglyphs are not God's version, but the gloating of the evil realm as they discuss making eden fall and creation of their own reality from the spoils. Analogous to here, when a country invades another and appropriates its goods. Of course on a lesser scale.
Click to expand...
I can tell you are very intelligent~that I give you~but, dear soul, I think it has hindered you more than help, IMO.

e v e said:
I believe that the human doctrine of sola scriptura would be correct, if the words are properly translated
Click to expand...
Here is where faith must come in. I refuse to listen to voices who do not trust in God to keep his promises of preserving his words from being corrupted by man. Eve, I live by Psalms 12 (and there are other sound reasons why as well) and trust in it with all of my heart.

Psalms 12:6,7~"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Jesus had faith in the scriptures even though ready scribes constantly wrote the scriptures down from one generation to the next, yet our Lord said man shall live by every word that poceetheth out of the mouth of God, showing us he believed what he had and was reading was indeed the very words of God.

e v e said:
God is utter sweet Love. If I make a mistake but I am sincerely inquiring, that is not heresy. That is not willful deception. If I get to where He is in paradise and I made a mistake, then I hope He will forgive me.
Click to expand...
Eve, you and I will make many mistakes, some even willful, yet God is merciful toward those who come to him in child like faith and trusting solely in his mercy because of what Jesus has done to put away our sins. If we truly seek his mercy, then we shall find his mercy to be beyond our expectation.
e v e said:
I simply don't believe the KJV or Septuagint and modern bibles from those, are His Words
Click to expand...
Then you are cutting off your only hope of ever hoping to be accepted by him in that day. That's your choice, and you must be willing to live by it, and you shall.
e v e said:
Thanks for the reply.
Click to expand...
Same here Eve.
 
Last edited:
brightfame52 said:
Faith is by Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by[according to] grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The elect believe by or because of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith and Grace agree in Gender here, showing they are of one and the same, now is Grace of ourselves ?
Click to expand...
So it is not a work and you stand self refuted

sorry agreement in gender does not mean they are the same

It is in identification of a pronoun with its antecedent that one examines for agreement in gender, but

neither faith or grace are pronouns.

You are therefore abusing grammar
 
Red Baker said:
He obviously does not understand context drives one's understanding and is king in bible hermeneutics in understanding scriptures. John 1:13 follows John 1:12 which tell us that the power to believe was given unto those that believes, so that there can be no boasting on man's part. Of course, man will believe what they want to believe, regardless of sound biblical evidence put before them.
Click to expand...
John 1:12 does not say anything about God giving us the power to believe. It says that those who believe receive the right to become children of God. Our belief is the condition upon which God gives us the right to become His children.

And Dwight was exactly right in his statement: everyone has been born of the will of the flesh, of blood, and/or the will of man. But those who believe will be born of God, spiritually reborn.
 

Similar threads

The Rogue Tomato
The doctrine of election
2 3
Replies
55
Views
612
TomL
T
J
Ephesians 1:4 Explained
9 10 11
Replies
201
Views
881
TomL
T
The Rogue Tomato
Jacob and Esau
15 16 17
Replies
337
Views
2K
Johann
J
P
Favoritism in Unconditional Election
15 16 17
Replies
326
Views
2K
synergy
S
J
Predestination from the church fathers
Replies
6
Views
106
Behold
Behold
Back
Top Bottom