Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Much theology therefore turned the OT into 'dusty history, the past, done and over with'. And scribes (academics of the son of ammon type = esau) have literally altered what God said by their 'translations' seen through Greece not through God.

A perfect later example was aquinas an aristotelian platonist like augustine whose summa is a greek philosophy text that pretends to be christian by using christian words to exegete greek concepts , greek concerns and all of this done using greek logical methods of exegesis.
 
evangelicalism also suffers from occasionalism. Different expression but same overall problem.
occasionalism is a view, and a very fallen matrix physics causality view, that every single movement even spilling coffee is God's doing.

It was a sort of absolute counter to the idea that any agency exists outside of primary substance. Primary substance is plato and aristotle's concept that there is only one ultimate cause and everything else is 'accidents' / in physics terms entropy.

In occasional use every monad or cell is completely effect like dominoes are when falling, and they function in harmony established by that primary cause, which is the sole and only consciousness.


This is a deeply selfish, carnal and ugly philosophy based on plato's concept of the One, aka god of reason , the pagan oversoul. There are no individual souls in the greek view. In academia plato is known as the first articulate of monotheism. Which the vatican held up as proof of monotheism. Since any other version (outside the pagan prime mover concept!) would trigger an amphiboly = confusion of warring causes (= gods)

this is a horrendous philosophy and here I have barely scratched the surface of its ugliness.
 
all these issues of the greek theology affect descartes, newton, leibniz, kant, church fathers, augustine etc.

Greek theology Was and still is the classical education since before christ.

Plato inaugurated reason (= science) as the god of reason to harmonize accidental causes and bring logic to the fallen context. This science is the carnal mind, since that mind is a monad of the One, tying perfectly into occasionalism.

Occasionalism is the religion of a false God (prince of the air, god of reason) where pure causality or total imprisonment of the poor soul is the key goal. the soul does not exist in it and has zero choices. Everything is a zombie function to the one.

All this is wrapped up in romantic idealized gods and religions such as taoism and buddhism as well. It also fits what enoch was shown and egyptian theology.

But the One described is not Gods version!!!!

Yet every denomination seems to be so influenced by it...

that influence has inserted itself
and expanded in
most theological expressions
and dogmas since the time of prophets...

sorry but still this is just
cliff notes.
 
The entire purpose of greek philosophy, imo,
coming only 300 y before Christ,
was to establish the Carnal Self and its
reasoning and logic as the method
of understanding. as science
and the classical education...

as a preemptive move against Christ.

Augustine and his idiot follower descartes
who got his method from three dreams
with a spirit!
had as their job to merge the greek view
to christianity...
giving us the 30 year war,
the fake argument of round v. flat earth...,
the failed! reformation,
the emergence of science
as arbiter of truth(= god of reason of plato),
the merging of science of this fallen
physics to God and His creation
(which are nothing alike!)

yet today christians use science as proof of God.

How ugly.
 
Then please explain where/what Eden is to you.


Please explain your meaning with what you have said.


Per all to be gleaned from ancient texts
there were massive cosmological changes
and we are now very far from Home.

If you look in the direction of the sun
it is beyond the sun, which is a plasma dome
over the pagan paradise
(protecting the satanic cities, mystery babylon,
built atop eden after the fall)
method is why when Christ returns
and at the cross,
the sun goes dark....
but when Christ returns it will be permanent

before the flood we were in that region
and now we are in this satellite area
beyond that sun dome , in its orbit

per book of rev and also book of enoch, eden is cubic not round, and per enoch, eden has a binary not solar system where eden paradise is not circling but is the core of creation.

ref: cross reading hieroglyphs, rg vedas, prophets, book of enoch and all ancient texts.
 
Greetings Eve~Your post makes very little biblical sense~

because of corruption of the bible as interpreted. See my previous posts.
but, what I did take from what you posted is this:

So, let me ask you this question~are you limiting the whole body of the elect to just 144,000 ? and if yes, then what qualifies them to be the 144,000? It is a pet doctrine of the JW's.
No since the 144k Represent attributes (the talents!) God given to His creation, so it could be more than that, and souls are entrusted to give those back to God.

Also, the 144k have a job specific to restoring the scroll (compare sealed vision) ..

they with Christ will return to help most of Jacob during tribulation.

Evangelicals as well as jw seem to Limit the saved to that remnant, not understanding the topic.


So, you have two comings of Christ? The scriptures only promises one more coming at the last day.

The 144k will meet christ on the clouds and with Christ rebuild eden paradise.

And then as the two witnesses return to earth to help much of modern christianity, left behind ...

Jacob will die during trib... whereas the 144k are Restored to their original nature and do not die ...


Who is Jacob according to your understanding?

Jacob are souls belonging to God, literally, imprisoned in this earthly dungeon flesh...

Esau are of satan, different father, see previous post about the term satan.


Not fleshly Israel, but the elect among both Jews and Gentiles.

the term jew relates to flesh genealogy so it is not His topic. His topic is souls from eden, npsh, and has nothing to do with flesh on this earth. Both esaus and jacob are here in flesh.

Gentile is an esau corruption. Not God's concepts at all.
I agree that the two witnesses are the 144,000,

yes
Jews and Gentiles that makes up the body of Jesus Christ. Maybe more on this later.
No, neither concept of jew or gentile has to do with His context.
Jacob will go through the great tribulation period as prophesied by Christ,
true, because he follows esau's corrupt scroll.
and the very elect are doing just that at the moment. Maybe later more...

curious your view of how. Trib starts when the sun goes dark, see my previous about the sun.
Please elaborate, before i comment. Saved in what sense?

Legally Christ made possible for us to be saved...
And as souls we can accept Him and hold onto His promise! (given to His souls, not esau). De facto the fulfillment of that, starts at the Change, what many call rapture... when His souls are Changed (=given again) our original nature before the fall which is our glorified perfect body made by God, not the current flesh. True that at this time there is much suffering for His 144k... but that is not the tribulation, though it is beyond awful.
Please elaborate before I can comment.
 
Greetings Eve~Your post makes very little biblical sense~but, what I did take from what you posted is this:

So, let me ask you this question~are you limiting the whole body of the elect to just 144,000 ? and if yes, then what qualifies them to be the 144,000? It is a pet doctrine of the JW's.


So, you have two comings of Christ? The scriptures only promises one more coming at the last day. Who is Jacob according to your understanding? Not fleshly Israel, but the elect among both Jews and Gentiles.


I agree that the two witnesses are the 144,000, Jews and Gentiles that makes up the body of Jesus Christ. Maybe more on this later.


Jacob will go through the great tribulation period as prophesied by Christ, and the very elect are doing just that at the moment. Maybe later more...


Please elaborate, before i comment. Saved in what sense?


Please elaborate before I can comment.
I've attempted a starting response to each point though each are much longer topics...
 
I've never been JW. I was raised catholic, and lapsed by age 17, a long time ago.

I did read some rebuttal of the version I understand, by a JW in another forum but his rebuttal contained the same greek theology. I don't blame him or JW or seventhday souls, since many are part of jacob and out of jacob comes the 144, which evangelicalism calls the elect. A really loaded term for so many reasons!!!!! Mostly so messed up and ego flesh mind like.

these attempts at reformation, also such as the early modern one all failed. Not saying they were not in some souls sincere attempts. That history is a whole topic of the seven churches... and again a long topic and not the topic here.
 
EDIT by Admin
Which is why the law was given - to make men aware that they were unable to follow it to achieve their own righteousness.
It's a cruel God who would demand the Israelites to obey the Old Covenant, if it wasn't possible to do so. The New Testament tells us that John the Baptist's parents kept the Law blamelessly. Paul too, says that he did the same thing.
 
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It's a cruel God who would demand the Israelites to obey the Old Covenant, if it wasn't possible to do so. The New Testament tells us that John the Baptist's parents kept the Law blamelessly. Paul too, says that he did the same thing.
As I've said before, you can prove that it was possible for them to obey the Old Covenant if you can name a single person (besides Jesus) who followed the law.
 
Eve, your recent group of a dozen or more posts, display clearly that you are in a lot of confusion. It's almost as if you are on drugs, which I hope is not the case. Most of what you say makes no sense whatsoever. I will pray that you can find a mature Christian that can help you out of that confusion.
It's a cruel God who would demand the Israelites to obey the Old Covenant, if it wasn't possible to do so. The New Testament tells us that John the Baptist's parents kept the Law blamelessly. Paul too, says that he did the same thing. Eve does not need the law, she needs a gentle, caring, Christian, who can lead her out of confusion.
I do not even take aspirin.

I am sorry but Perhaps you should not judge others or who needs help and leave that job to Christ.

Take care.
 
It's a cruel God who would demand the Israelites to obey the Old Covenant, if it wasn't possible to do so. The New Testament tells us that John the Baptist's parents kept the Law blamelessly. Paul too, says that he did the same thing.


I've never posted on if what God asked was possible. So you do not know what I understand about the OT events.

I don't know what your last sentence means concerning me other than again you are discussing me. I would appreciate for you to stop discussing me, another poster, as it is against forum rules.
 
I've attempted a starting response to each point though each are much longer topics...
Eve, I've read your post and it would be impossible to discuss scriptures with you since you use no scriptures in explaining yourself. I do not mind taking this further, but only in another thread, not this one.

So you can start a thread or maybe the moderator(s) can moved your posts for you to start one keep from hijacking this one.

A reminder~we test all spirits by the word of God, period. The book of Enoch doesn't count as scriptures. Christ exhorted us to search the scriptures; the early Christian search the scriptures to see of those things were so; so, all noble believers search the word of God and test every spirit by God's testimony of what is truth or what is science fiction, or a lie from Satan who is a spirit working in the hearts of his children.

John 5:39​


“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:11​


“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

1st John 4:1​


“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

For now, I have one word for you:

Isaiah 8:20​


“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
 
One writer writes this about unconditional election and I concur:

The meaning of unconditional election.

Arminians reply, God looks into the future and sees who will accept him, receive him, and God elects them on the basis of man’s will. The Scriptures make it very clear that Election to salvation is in no way conditioned by or dependent upon man. Unconditional means that there are no conditions that humans must meet, including faith. Faith is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3; Eph. 2:8). If human-generated faith plays a part in salvation, salvation is not entirely by grace. Now think about it, if election is of man’s will, then God is bound to man’s will. Then where is the sovereignty of God? Where is the mercy of God? Where is the grace of God? All these have no place as God is limited and he has no choice but he has to make the choice as per man’s decision. This kind of teaching is very heretical and slap on God’s sovereignty.

On the other hand, the Bible says just the opposite. God predestines and choose some according to his will and as per his own pleasure.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 
I think we have done battle before on Grace centered forum~you went under the name "GB"is this correct? If not then you are his brother.
Mr. Pharisee~If you had listened better, than you would known that I meant except we had witness from Peter (scriptures) themselves we would not had known Lot was a righteousness man. Deuteronomy 2:19 nwould not have proven that he was righteous~who were the children of Lot, ( Ammonites and Moabites) but Israel's enemies. Of course we have NT witness that was needed to prove Lot's case~his overall life did not in comparison to Abraham. He would not even been a consideration for a nominee for Hebrews 11.

Jesus, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", described the Pharisees to me Red. Here is how He describes them.

Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

And again;

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside "the commandment of God", ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

And again;

Matt. 23: 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

These Words of the Jesus "of the bible" describing Pharisees, describe a religion in which the people therein "Transgress" God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. They don't "Yield themselves" servants to obey God as Paul and the Faithful examples in the Bible did. They go about establishing their own righteousness, just as the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time did. That describes this world's popular religions that you and Kenneth Copeland, and others who have "transformed themselves" into apostles of Christ, have adopted and are promoting to others.

People who not only hear God's word, but are "doers" of God's Word, are not Pharisees. Jesus, Peter, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men etc. These are men who have "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God. They are not like you and the Pharisees who reject God's Judgments and Sabbaths, in order to walk in your own judgments and Sabbaths.

Whereas I believe in the Actual Scriptures, like the Jesus "of the Bible" and Zacharias, and Simeon and Paul, etc. As a result, I don't reject God's Judgments or His Sabbaths or His Commandments in order to live by the popular man-made religious traditions of this world God placed me in. Nor do I partake in the self-exaltation and self-righteousness of Calvinists, or whoever you have yielded yourself servants to obey.

So you, calling me a Pharisee, is a deception, a lie, and there is nothing in my posts that would suggest that I behave in the manner of a Pharisee as described by Jesus.

Now I understand deceivers must change the definition of Pharisee, because to go by Jesus' definition, they are the Pharisee. Perhaps if you listened to the same Jesus I listen to, you might be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and align yourself with HIM, and not the religions of this world God placed you in.

I posted Jesus' Words regarding Lot and even His command, "Remember Lot's wife". I asked the question, "why didn't God turn Lot to salt along with his wife"? When a man seeking the truth and wisdom from God reads the account, as Jesus implies we do, it is clear that Lot didn't put anything before the command of the God of Abraham, not even his wife. And as promised, God showed Him Mercy. But you have to distract, change the subject, and call people names in order to justify yourself, and preserve and promote your own particular adopted religion, and their religious philosophy.

Just as the Pharisee. Surely there is nothing new under the sun.

I have no clue what you are attempting to say when you said: "I believe God's Word is also His Mercy"~the word of God is God's testimony of truth, totally different than his mercy!

Ez. 20: 10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

I look at this as God's Mercy as well. Caleb and Joshua are examples of men who listened to God, but were not only hearers of God's Law, but doers, as Paul teaches. And as promised, they shall be justified.

I agree with you on one point, "You have no clue".

Psalm 145:8-9~“The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy. The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.”

The DEFINITION​

Mercy.~Forbearance and compassion shown by one person to another who is in his power and who has no claim to receive kindness; kind and compassionate treatment in a case where severity is merited or expected.

Mercy is very closely connected to grace; Grace is demerited favor, and mercy is demerited forgiveness. These are close, but not identical.

I am told to "beware" of your religious philosophy, and to "Take heed" of your sermons. If you don't even know what a Pharisee is, to the point of falsely accusing others of being one, how could you even begin to understand God's Mercy? And if you are filled with so much hubris, self-exaltation and pride that you can't even be challenged without falsely accusing those who would post Scripture which brings question your religion, then you won't see that Is. 65 is talking about you.

Is. 65: 1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day "unto a rebellious people", which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

And as all preachers of Pharisaism, Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, and many others "who profess to know God", you must ignore and omit so much of the Scriptures in order to justify their preaching and fill their manmade shrines of worship make of "Brick".

It's not too late Red. Even you can repent and turn to God and bring forth "works" worthy of repentance. But this takes self-denial and humility and most of all, belief in the God you profess to know.

I truly hope you might consider what is actually written in the Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" and remember the words of the Jesus "of the Bible", "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by "every word" that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

A choice God sets before all men.
 
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