Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[e v e]

You are confused. Maybe you should see a mature Christian counselor.

What would talking to a stranger (who does not care about me!!!) help?

Why would I undergo indoctrination? Why would I need 'counseling'?

 

[e v e]

You are listening to the False Jehovah Witnesses'~you are more deceived when Satan first deceived Eve your mother.

i know for sure that jw do not understand or believe what i posted. I gather they believe a) eden was on this earth and b) that God made these fleshbodies and c) that the new creation is on this earth. On all those points they are not correct. And d) their understanding of the 144k is not mine at all.... oh and e) they believe God made this earth.

 

[e v e]

Christ is deity.

JW reject Christ is deity and as far as i know think Jesus was just a man and do not accept that Christ as deity incarnated to this earth (of which He said "I am not from here.")

 

[TomL]

I agree. Faith is consistent with grace. Faith comes from grace and mercy.

Faith comes from

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[TomL]

i know for sure that jw do not understand or believe what i posted. I gather they believe a) eden was on this earth and b) that God made these fleshbodies and c) that the new creation is on this earth. On all those points they are not correct. And d) their understanding of the 144k is not mine at all.... oh and e) they believe God made this earth.

Some other god made this earth?

 

[Red Baker]

Actually faith establishes that it is by grace

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Tom, you are not understanding Romans four, not even close. God chose "the system of faith", that he may established this truth~Salvation from sin and condemnation is purely by the grace of God without any works on man's part. Not faith as a means to obtain, but faith as the means, or evidence that the righteousness of God is upon the person who believes, "not upon a person who thinks he must perform certain religious acts" in order to be accepted~another blessed truth that goes perfectly this this truth, is regeneration is solely by the Spirit of God apart from all means, including, but not limited to preachers, the scriptures, will of the flesh, etc.; the three main ones folks labor to use.....but, they labor in vain.

​

John 1:13~ “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”​

Dwight is badly deceived when he wrote:

All men have been born of blood. All men have been born of the will of the flesh. All men have been born of the will of a man. It is actually saying that they were not only born of blood, not only born of the will of the flesh, and not only born of the will of a man, but also of God.
Born once - then born again.

He obviously does not understand context drives one's understanding and is king in bible hermeneutics in understanding scriptures. John 1:13 follows John 1:12 which tell us that the power to believe was given unto those that believes, so that there can be no boasting on man's part. Of course, man will believe what they want to believe, regardless of sound biblical evidence put before them.

 

[Red Baker]

Faith comes from

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

True, that is the means of how faith comes to a regenerated child of God and how it is increased, as he/she hears, reads, and seeks the word of God~but faith that honors God's law perfectly, which is the means of our salvation from sin and condemnation comes from CHRIST alone by and through whom we have now received the free gift of eternal life. Ephesians 2:4-9; Galatians 2:16; and Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9; etc.

 

[TomL]

True, that is the means of how faith comes to a regenerated child of God and how it is increased, as he/she hears, reads, and seeks the word of God~but faith that honors God's law perfectly, which is the means of our salvation from sin and condemnation comes from CHRIST alone by and through whom we have now received the free gift of eternal life. Ephesians 2:4-9; Galatians 2:16; and Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9; etc.

Nope faith precedes regeneration

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[TomL]

Tom, you are not understanding Romans four, not even close. God chose "the system of faith", that he may established this truth~Salvation from sin and condemnation is purely by the grace of God without any works on man's part.

Faith is not a work according to Paul

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Seems it is you who does not understand Paul

Not faith as a means to obtain, but faith as the means, or evidence that the righteousness of God is upon the person who believes, "not upon a person who thinks he must perform certain religious acts" in order to be accepted~another blessed truth that goes perfectly this this truth, is regeneration is solely by the Spirit of God apart from all means, including, but not limited to preachers, the scriptures, will of the flesh, etc.; the three main ones folks labor to use.....but, they labor in vain.

Sorry but faith is the instrumental cause of righteousness and salvation

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

​

John 1:13~ “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”​

Conflates the right to be made a child of God with the act of making man a child of God

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

all who believe on Jesus receive this right, which God alone can accomplish

 

[brightfame52]

@tom

Actually faith establishes that it is by grace

Thats correct but you dont understand that this statement refutes what you believe and supports what I believe

Faith is by Grace Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by/according to grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith is the byproduct/result of Grace. Hence again one believes BECAUSE OF GRACE Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the instrumental means of knowing,being persuaded that one has been saved by grace!

 

[brightfame52]

Nope faith precedes regeneration

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Scripture is written so that the regenerate sheep might believe and that they might have life through His name. Jesus came specifically to give life to the Sheep jn 10 :10-11

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The Sheep] might have life, and that they[the sheep] might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 20:31 is about the Sheep, the elect

 

[TomL]

@tom



Thats correct but you dont understand that this statement refutes what you believe and supports what I believe

Faith is by Grace Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by/according to grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith is the byproduct/result of Grace. Hence again one believes BECAUSE OF GRACE Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the instrumental means of knowing,being persuaded that one has been saved by grace!

Not found or taught anywhere in scripture
As usual you have twisted scripture by your doctrine
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

One believes for the purpose one might have life

 

[Red Baker]

This is why I left your religion 30 years ago Red. You guys pick and choose Scriptures to justify your adopted religion, like you do here. But if a man would just finish the Chapter, your entire philosophy is exposed.

Maybe you should have left your rellgion many years ago, so did I~ I but I left arminianism almost fifty years ago, in my mid twenties~a little sooner than you did!

Yes, men do pick and choose scriptures to support their system, nothing new under the sun. But, if you think I do, then by all means prove it. I have battled your kind for fifty years.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation "of the righteous".

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because "the LORD is his refuge".

So you can see, the children of men didn't seek God. The Fool doesn't believe God. The workers of iniquity, who work to turn men away from God's Word, they are all become filthy, there is none good among them, "NO NOT ONE". And that is where you stop because to continue in the same chapter, you would find others who follow another Path, one in which the followers thereof, "DO" seek God, "DO" understand.

Those who Love God and Keep His commandments, fear (Respect) Him. Those who choose "Life", who choose God's Righteousness over the religious traditions of this world, are not fools, or workers of iniquity, or men who don't seek God. These men, as Paul teaches, "Yield Themselves" servant to obey God, they become "Servants of God's righteousness", not their own. Because obedience to God, is righteousness as Paul teaches in Romans 6:16.

You took my words out of context in which I said them! That's wicked on your part Mr. Pharisee. I clearly said:

Yes God knows the end from the beginning, all would agree. But his mercy toward man is based solely upon the will of God and his good pleasure.

What God did see was that if he did not have an election of grace, then none would love and serve him. Election is not based upon God for seeing the goodness of man in believing and repenting and loving him.

Psalms 14:1-4~"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."

Thereby:

Isaiah 1:9​

“Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.”

Studyman~And that is where you stop because to continue in the same chapter, you would find others who follow another Path, one in which the followers thereof, "DO" seek God, "DO" understand.

I made my point concerning that if there had not been an election of grace, then none would have ever been saved from their sins and condemnation, none. Of course the election grace cause them to loved, and fear God, otherwise they would have never done so! Try to be honest, I know it is hard for men like you to do so. Just because some love and fear God does not give your work gospel any support, because grace and God's mercy preserved a godly seed to love and serve him~per Isaiah 1:9~that you conveniently overlooked when I was making my point.

Those who Love God and Keep His commandments, fear (Respect) Him. Those who choose "Life", who choose God's Righteousness over the religious traditions of this world, are not fools, or workers of iniquity, or men who don't seek God. These men, as Paul teaches, "Yield Themselves" servant to obey God, they become "Servants of God's righteousness", not their own. Because obedience to God, is righteousness as Paul teaches in Romans 6:16.

Yes, there are a few of these men, yet, they themselves did not do such spiritual acts on their own power but through the new man that was given to them (created within them) on the behalf of Jesus Christ ~ by the power of God, showing mercy to them for Jesus' sake, or on his behalf~since he secured these spiritual blessings for them, is this gift freely given by his faith and obedience. not theirs.

As it is written in another place.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

Amen, I believe this more so than you, especially so~even as he is righteous, this righteousness can never be taken from us by any power under heaven or above heaven.

And God is in the Generation "of the Righteous", at least this is what HE Inspired to be written, that you thought unworthy to post.

Amen, I believe this as well~did not post it since it was not part of my point, then again, there were thousands of others scriptures not posted, since they too were not part of my point being made. Why do you not learn to be more honest Mr. Pharisee~I know, it just is not in you to practice such righteous deeds.

Seek God's Truth Red, not justification of your adopted religion. It is God and His Son alone, who can save us from death, not Calvin or Kenneth Copeland or any of this world's religious franchises.

One word for you from Paul the apostle:

Romans 2:21-24~"Thou therefore which teachest another,teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

 

[brightfame52]

Not found or taught anywhere in scripture
As usual you have twisted scripture by your doctrine
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

One believes for the purpose one might have life

its plain as the noon day sun that Faith is caused by Grace, not the flesh of man, man wants the Glory for something thats by Gods Grace.

 

[TomL]

its plain as the noon day sun that Faith is caused by Grace, not the flesh of man, man wants the Glory for something thats by Gods Grace.

As usual you have twisted scripture by your doctrine

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

One believes for the purpose one might have life

 

[TomL]

I made my point concerning that if there had not been an election of grace, then none would have ever been saved from their sins and condemnation, none. Of course the election grace cause them to loved, and fear God, otherwise they would have never done so! Try to be honest, I know it is hard for men like you to do so. Just because some love and fear God does not give your work gospel any support, because grace and God's mercy preserved a godly seed to love and serve him~per Isaiah 1:9~that you conveniently overlooked when I was making my point.

Election is in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

and this is how one gets to be in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[brightfame52]

As usual you have twisted scripture by your doctrine

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

One believes for the purpose one might have life

Jn 20:31 thats the regenerated sheep/elect, I have explained that already. Jn 10:10

Scripture isnt written to the natural man, he cant receive it 1 Cor 2 14

 

[TomL]

Jn 20:31 thats the regenerated sheep/elect, I have explained that already. Jn 10:10

Scripture isnt written to the natural man, he cant receive it 1 Cor 2 14

Sorry it is regeneration that imparts spiritual life and that is preceded by faith


John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

One believes for the purpose one might have life

 

[civic]

Faith is not a work according to Paul

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Seems it is you who does not understand Paul





Sorry but faith is the instrumental cause of righteousness and salvation

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed






Conflates the right to be made a child of God with the act of making man a child of God

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

all who believe on Jesus receive this right, which God alone can accomplish

Amen

 

[Red Baker]

i ve no information on that, only reading wikipedia. not sure why you say this.

Greetings Eve~Your post makes very little biblical sense~but, what I did take from what you posted is this:

the elect are those souls who reject the false scroll and Listen to Him...
and those are the 144k (once restored to their Original body made by God = their glorified body)

So, let me ask you this question~are you limiting the whole body of the elect to just 144,000 ? and if yes, then what qualifies them to be the 144,000? It is a pet doctrine of the JW's.

and with Christ later will return here and help poor left behind jacob,
which is most of modern Christianity,
for Jacob will Go through tribulation

So, you have two comings of Christ? The scriptures only promises one more coming at the last day. Who is Jacob according to your understanding? Not fleshly Israel, but the elect among both Jews and Gentiles.

and suffer much but after the two witnesses = the 144k

I agree that the two witnesses are the 144,000, Jews and Gentiles that makes up the body of Jesus Christ. Maybe more on this later.

for Jacob will Go through tribulation

Jacob will go through the great tribulation period as prophesied by Christ, and the very elect are doing just that at the moment. Maybe later more...

There is no 'saved already'... Christ made possible His Promise..
saved is when His souls are

Please elaborate, before i comment. Saved in what sense?

Only a remnant will understand this, and reject the false scroll...
and that is what is the elect..who will meet Christ on the clouds...
and not drunk on the wine (=kjv, septuagint etc.)

Step one is our Deity Christ made possible to go Home and be saved.
Step two is to meet Christ on the clouds and Go Home = be saved from this satanic dungeon
earth and this satanic fleshbody
and Restored to our birthright.

Please elaborate before I can comment.