Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[TomL]

Mr. Psittacine~you need to learn more words, you just repeat the same thing over and over again, even when all have been addressed.

I do not believe you have addressed all the verses

if you believe otherwise show where

Your understanding fails the Litmus for truth.

That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by...

2nd Thessalonians 2:13—”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” Note that “sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”?

sorry No

That verse does not say sanctification of the Spirit causes belief

In fact the bible states it is faith which leads to sanctification

Acts 26:18 (UASV) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

We answer, THE NEW BIRTH. In Scripture “sanctification” ALWAYS means “separation,” separation from something and unto something or someone.” [A.W. Pink]

Believers are separated unto God not unbelievers

Acts 26:18 (UASV) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

First there is a “NEW CREATION” (2nd Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10), and then the “NEW CREATURE” is stirred into exercise. Faith and all other graces are wrought in us by the Spirit through the instrumentality of Word, but not so with the principle of life and grace from which these graces proceed.

One must be in Christ to be a new creation

2 Corinthians 5:17 (UASV) — 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

and one is not in Christ until he trusts in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (UASV) — 13 In whom also, you having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having trusted, were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

In His work of “quickening,” by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from WITHIN, and not by applying something from WITHOUT. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY INSTRUMENT: the WORD IS USED BY HIM AFTERWARDS to call into exercise the life then communicated.

One is not quickened until his sins are forgiven

Colossians 2:13 (UASV) — 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

faith and repentance are required for forgiveness of sin

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Regeneration is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit. It is the action of Spirit upon spirit, of a Divine Person upon a human person, whereby spiritual life is imparted. Nothing, therefore, of the nature of means or instruments can come between the Holy Spirit and the soul that is made alive. God did not employ an instrument or means when He infused physical life into the body of Adam. There were only two factors: the dust of the ground and the creative power of God which vivified that dust. The Divine omnipotence and dead matter were brought into direct contact, with nothing interposing. The dust was not a means or instrument by which God originated life. So in regeneration there are only two factors: the human soul destitute of spiritual life, and the Holy Spirit who quickens it.

after having had ones sins forgiven through repentance and faith

Colossians 2:13 (UASV) — 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

faith and repentance are required for forgiveness of sin

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Now Kindly show where you addressed all these

Not if you believe scripture

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Acts 26:18 (UASV) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Thats in regards to the regenerate elect gentiles who need to hear the Gospel for their conversion experience. See they were subjectively spiritually alive, but they had not yet heard the objective truth of the Gospel, so God specifically sent them Paul to preach Christ to them, and in so doing it would turn them from darkness to the light of the Gospel, it delivers them from the power of satan unto God and gives them a knowledge of the forgiveness of sins by giving them Faith in Christ.

This was a fulfillment of prophecy Lk 1:78-79

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Isa 42 6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Those gentiles Paul was sent to were to partake of the covenant mercies in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Johann]

@TomL



Thats in regards to the regenerate elect gentiles who need to hear the Gospel for their conversion experience. See they were subjectively spiritually alive, but they had not yet heard the objective truth of the Gospel, so God specifically sent them Paul to preach Christ to them, and in so doing it would turn them from darkness to the light of the Gospel, it delivers them from the power of satan unto God and gives them a knowledge of the forgiveness of sins by giving them Faith in Christ.

This was a fulfillment of prophecy Lk 1:78-79

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Isa 42 6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Those gentiles Paul was sent to were to partake of the covenant mercies in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can poke holes into this construct @brightfame52 but I won't-since I respect you for what you believe is the gospel truth and brothers stand together-not divided.
Johann

 

[brightfame52]

I can poke holes into this construct @brightfame52 but I won't-since I respect you for what you believe is the gospel truth and brothers stand together-not divided.
Johann

That this was a fulfilment of prophecy is also seen in the immediate context of Acts 26, Jesus is the one through Paul showing light to the Gentiles Acts 26:18-23

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

[Johann]

That this was a fulfilment of prophecy is also seen in the immediate context of Acts 26, Jesus is the one through Paul showing light to the Gentiles Acts 26:18-23

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Oh my---

 

[Red Baker]

I do not believe you have addressed all the verses

if you believe otherwise show where

Tom, my first post in this thread was posted on March 30th #267, this thread is now approaching almost 1,200 post. Your first post to me was posted April 5th 2024 #343. I'm not going to go through all of the posts between you and I, you can, but I have glanced over many of them this morning~your first seven or so post to me you used the same scriptures over and over again , and then you switched to another group of scriptures and have posted them many, many times. You keep posting them as though no one has answered you, but we have. Besides, you very seldom try to take what we have said and break it down to expose it as false, which is what one must do to give their position any credibility worthy of "any" consideration.

That verse does not say sanctification of the Spirit causes belief

Tom, the sanctification of the Spirit is that washing of regeneration that gives the elect new hearts. Belief of the truth must follow regeneration and is brought forth by gospel preaching. No man is able to deliver his own soul from lies ~ only the Lord can do it (Isaiah 44:18-20).

We might add: When Paul said: the sanctification of "the spirit"........... chiefly from the Spirit of God being the author of it; and this being a means fixed in the decree of election to salvation, shows that holiness/good works is not the cause of election, yet is certain by it, and is necessary to give evidence being God's elect; and that the doctrine of election is no licentious doctrine, since it provides for and secures true and real holiness.

This next verse is the best verse you have provided so far, that would seemly give your position any room for a good argument

Acts 26:18​

“To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

God sent Paul unto the Gentiles for the express purpose of opening their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God. Though this is all the work of the Spirit, by whom only the eyes of the understanding are enlightened; yet this is ascribed to the apostle, not as the original and efficient cause, but as the instrument and means through preaching of the Gospel, which the Spirit of God would, and did make use of once one is first quickened to life by the power of God alone.

"That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance"~that is, receive the knowledge of such spiritual blessings which comes through preaching, the only means through which this knowledge is imparted.

"them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"~Which could only mean those made holy by the faith which is in God, or, that faith he secured and provided for his elect in the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation from sin and condemnation is by Jessu Christ alone......... his faith and obedience.

I might come back later after I do a few errands and consider 2nd Corinthians 5;17

 

[Johann]

Tom, my first post in this thread was posted on March 30th #267, this thread is now approaching almost 1,200 post. Your first post to me was posted April 5th 2024 #343. I'm not going to go through all of the posts between you and I, you can, but I have glanced over many of them this morning~your first seven or so post to me you used the same scriptures over and over again , and then you switched to another group of scriptures and have posted them many, many times. You keep posting them as though no one has answered you, but we have. Besides, you very seldom try to take what we have said and break it down to expose it as false, which is what one must do to give their position any credibility worthy of "any" consideration.


Tom, the sanctification of the Spirit is that washing of regeneration that gives the elect new hearts. Belief of the truth must follow regeneration and is brought forth by gospel preaching. No man is able to deliver his own soul from lies ~ only the Lord can do it (Isaiah 44:18-20).

We might add: When Paul said: the sanctification of "the spirit"........... chiefly from the Spirit of God being the author of it; and this being a means fixed in the decree of election to salvation, shows that holiness/good works is not the cause of election, yet is certain by it, and is necessary to give evidence being God's elect; and that the doctrine of election is no licentious doctrine, since it provides for and secures true and real holiness.

This next verse is the best verse you have provided so far, that would seemly give your position any room for a good argument

Acts 26:18​

“To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

God sent Paul unto the Gentiles for the express purpose of opening their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God. Though this is all the work of the Spirit, by whom only the eyes of the understanding are enlightened; yet this is ascribed to the apostle, not as the original and efficient cause, but as the instrument and means through preaching of the Gospel, which the Spirit of God would, and did make use of once one is first quickened to life by the power of God alone.

"That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance"~that is, receive the knowledge of such spiritual blessings which comes through preaching, the only means through which this knowledge is imparted.

"them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"~Which could only mean those made holy by the faith which is in God, or, that faith he secured and provided for his elect in the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation from sin and condemnation is by Jessu Christ alone......... his faith and obedience.

I might come back later after I do a few errands and consider 2nd Corinthians 5;17

Doesn't that show stunted growth? I mean-1,200 posts? I can learn a lot in 1,200 posts!
Johann

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman



Because Christ who has saved them gives them repentance and its specifically to the elect Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Omitting the Words of the Christ that can't be used to preserve and promote your own religion is a popular tactic used by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. But Jesus doesn't teach men to engage in such behavior.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Only those who repent, are granted repentance. You keep cherry picking scriptures in order to justify a seductive and popular religious philosophy that cannot stand, if "Every Word" of God is considered.

This world's religions have promoted your philosophy for a long time and as the Scriptures I posted tells us, God has warned against these seductive religions and their manmade doctrines.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

I understand the blindness and "Believing the lie" that God picks winners and losers based on some secret holy lottery, and that men don't repent, but are granted repentance based on nothing they do.

My argument with the religion and its philosophies you have adopted and are now promoting, is that it omits so much of the Scriptures in order to promote the imaginations and traditions of men.

The Bible teaches for men to repent.

2 Tim. 2: 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Repentance)

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, (Repent) whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In the beginning of the Ministry of the Prophesied Priest of God, the Lord's Christ, here is what HE, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", preached to all mankind.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time "Jesus began to preach", and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Paul understood this as well, and taught both Jew and Gentile the same thing.

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Now you preach that a man doesn't repent, but that God gives them repentance based on nothing they do. So you have to ignore these Scriptures, and many more, because to consider them exposes a problem with Calvinism and or other religious sects and businesses who promote the popular and seductive "Holy Lottery" doctrine.

God saw this teaching coming and warned me of them.

Jer. 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

So God doesn't grant repentance to men who have not repented. It is foolishness to suggest that HE does, based on what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[brightfame52]

Omitting the Words of the Christ that can't be used to preserve and promote your own religion is a popular tactic used by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. But Jesus doesn't teach men to engage in such behavior.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Only those who repent, are granted repentance. You keep cherry picking scriptures in order to justify a seductive and popular religious philosophy that cannot stand, if "Every Word" of God is considered.

This world's religions have promoted your philosophy for a long time and as the Scriptures I posted tells us, God has warned against these seductive religions and their manmade doctrines.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

I understand the blindness and "Believing the lie" that God picks winners and losers based on some secret holy lottery, and that men don't repent, but are granted repentance based on nothing they do.

My argument with the religion and its philosophies you have adopted and are now promoting, is that it omits so much of the Scriptures in order to promote the imaginations and traditions of men.

The Bible teaches for men to repent.

2 Tim. 2: 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Repentance)

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, (Repent) whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In the beginning of the Ministry of the Prophesied Priest of God, the Lord's Christ, here is what HE, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible", preached to all mankind.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time "Jesus began to preach", and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Paul understood this as well, and taught both Jew and Gentile the same thing.

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Now you preach that a man doesn't repent, but that God gives them repentance based on nothing they do. So you have to ignore these Scriptures, and many more, because to consider them exposes a problem with Calvinism and or other religious sects and businesses who promote the popular and seductive "Holy Lottery" doctrine.

God saw this teaching coming and warned me of them.

Jer. 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

So God doesn't grant repentance to men who have not repented. It is foolishness to suggest that HE does, based on what the Scriptures actually say.

Christ causes His People to depart from iniquity, its a blessing of His Death for them Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Thats because His Death redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

No disrespect but you know nothing of the power of Christs death to save !

 

[Red Baker]

Omitting the Words of the Christ that can't be used to preserve and promote your own religion is a popular tactic used by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. But Jesus doesn't teach men to engage in such behavior.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In other words doing as you are now doing?

The Lord is declaring a biblical truth~judging others to be sinners by certain evil that befalls them, while one is living in sin , does not means that that person will not perish as other sinners do and will forever perish in the lake of fire which is the second death!

Using Luke 13:5 to reject the biblical truth that repentance is not a free gift granted in regeneration, is corrupting the word of God and doing what you are accusing others of doing.

1st Timothy 2:25,26~"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

All men by nature are captive slaves of the devil~thereby, God must give them the gift of repentance which all have power to do in their new man, not in their old man. Religious men who only have the old man, sits and judges all men thinking they are worse off than they are, yet, Christ's warns them....that except ye repent, ye shall LIKEWISE PERISH. Much like the Pharisees who went into the temple and pray thus with himself...

​

Luke 18:11​

“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.”

This Pharisee did not believe that God alone grants repentance~actually, he did not beleive he even need to repent, he thought he was righteous even from his mother's womb!

Our life is a life of constantly repenting of our foolishness and shortcomings, but this is only made possible by God FIRST giving us the desire and the power to do so! Selah.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman


I c you reject the suretyship obedience/righteousness which is gifted to Gods elect through Christ in favor of your own,

So then, in your religion, if a man hears God's Word and believes them, and "Yield's Himself" a servant to obey Him, he has rejected His instruction in Righteousness in favor of his own? I don't think you have thought this philosophy you have adopted out.

Let me ask a question of you. If I was a thief, and I heard God's instruction in Righteousness "Thou shall not Steal", and I turned away from my righteousness, and turned to God and His Righteousness, how is this walking in my righteousness?

I have heard this foolishness before, that God's Law is Righteous, Holy and Good, until a man "Yield himself" a servant to obey them, then God's Laws become a filthy rag.

Again, God saw this religion you are promoting coming, and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

but God sees all for whom Christs righteousness has been imputed as walking even as He walked !

Again, how seductive, it's no wonder so many people are walking on this path.

But here is what the Scriptures actually say.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that "saith", "I know him", and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The religious philosophy you are promoting, popular and seductive as it is, that God imputes His Righteousness on some men who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions, while withholding His Righteousness from others who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions is foolishness and a deception.

The Bible says over and over that God Judges men by their works, their deeds. If a man was a thief, and he repented, and turned to God, and did "Works" worthy of repentance, what would those works be? Stealing, or not stealing? The implication of your religion being promoted here, is that I can remain a thief, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and God won't see my stealing. What you refuse to accept, is that it is "God's Word" (Spirit, Christ) within the man who has "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey Him from the heart, that doesn't steal anymore.

Like Jesus said, it's the "Doers" of His Sayings who have built their home on the Rock, not the hearers only.

Jesus doesn't build the house for you, nor does HE make it, so you don't have to build.

Consider seeking God's Truth and God's Righteousness, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs. Not justification for adopted religious philosophies of men, popular in the world God placed us in, "who come in Christ's Name".

 

[Red Baker]

So then, in your religion, if a man hears God's Word and believes them, and "Yield's Himself" a servant to obey Him, he has rejected His instruction in Righteousness in favor of his own? I don't think you have thought this philosophy you have adopted out.

Let me ask a question of you. If I was a thief, and I heard God's instruction in Righteousness "Thou shall not Steal", and I turned away from my righteousness, and turned to God and His Righteousness, how is this walking in my righteousness?

I have heard this foolishness before, that God's Law is Righteous, Holy and Good, until a man "Yield himself" a servant to obey them, then God's Laws become a filthy rag.

Again, God saw this religion you are promoting coming, and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.




Again, how seductive, it's no wonder so many people are walking on this path.

But here is what the Scriptures actually say.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that "saith", "I know him", and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The religious philosophy you are promoting, popular and seductive as it is, that God imputes His Righteousness on some men who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions, while withholding His Righteousness from others who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions is foolishness and a deception.

The Bible says over and over that God Judges men by their works, their deeds. If a man was a thief, and he repented, and turned to God, and did "Works" worthy of repentance, what would those works be? Stealing, or not stealing? The implication of your religion being promoted here, is that I can remain a thief, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and God won't see my stealing. What you refuse to accept, is that it is "God's Word" (Spirit, Christ) within the man who has "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey Him from the heart, that doesn't steal anymore.

Like Jesus said, it's the "Doers" of His Sayings who have built their home on the Rock, not the hearers only.

Jesus doesn't build the house for you, nor does HE make it, so you don't have to build.

Consider seeking God's Truth and God's Righteousness, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs. Not justification for adopted religious philosophies of men, popular in the world God placed us in, "who come in Christ's Name".

After the gentleman you posted to answers, then I want to answer this post as well. I'll give him the first opportunity since you posted to him.

 

[brightfame52]

So then, in your religion, if a man hears God's Word and believes them, and "Yield's Himself" a servant to obey Him, he has rejected His instruction in Righteousness in favor of his own? I don't think you have thought this philosophy you have adopted out.

Let me ask a question of you. If I was a thief, and I heard God's instruction in Righteousness "Thou shall not Steal", and I turned away from my righteousness, and turned to God and His Righteousness, how is this walking in my righteousness?

I have heard this foolishness before, that God's Law is Righteous, Holy and Good, until a man "Yield himself" a servant to obey them, then God's Laws become a filthy rag.

Again, God saw this religion you are promoting coming, and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.




Again, how seductive, it's no wonder so many people are walking on this path.

But here is what the Scriptures actually say.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that "saith", "I know him", and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The religious philosophy you are promoting, popular and seductive as it is, that God imputes His Righteousness on some men who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions, while withholding His Righteousness from others who transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions is foolishness and a deception.

The Bible says over and over that God Judges men by their works, their deeds. If a man was a thief, and he repented, and turned to God, and did "Works" worthy of repentance, what would those works be? Stealing, or not stealing? The implication of your religion being promoted here, is that I can remain a thief, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and God won't see my stealing. What you refuse to accept, is that it is "God's Word" (Spirit, Christ) within the man who has "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey Him from the heart, that doesn't steal anymore.

Like Jesus said, it's the "Doers" of His Sayings who have built their home on the Rock, not the hearers only.

Jesus doesn't build the house for you, nor does HE make it, so you don't have to build.

Consider seeking God's Truth and God's Righteousness, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs. Not justification for adopted religious philosophies of men, popular in the world God placed us in, "who come in Christ's Name".

You continue to oppose the Gift of Righteousness in favor of your own, good luck with that in the day of judgment, you better hope it is as pure as Christs Law keeping Righteousness.

 

[TomL]

Tom, my first post in this thread was posted on March 30th #267, this thread is now approaching almost 1,200 post. Your first post to me was posted April 5th 2024 #343. I'm not going to go through all of the posts between you and I, you can, but I have glanced over many of them this morning~your first seven or so post to me you used the same scriptures over and over again , and then you switched to another group of scriptures and have posted them many, many times. You keep posting them as though no one has answered you, but we have. Besides, you very seldom try to take what we have said and break it down to expose it as false, which is what one must do to give their position any credibility worthy of "any" consideration.

There is a thing called the search function.

If you are not able to produce a URL where you addressed all the arguments I will conclude what I had stated previously.
You have not addressed them

I have to wonder why when Calvinists claim to have addressed all arguments they are unable to produce evidence of it.

Tom, the sanctification of the Spirit is that washing of regeneration that gives the elect new hearts. Belief of the truth must follow regeneration and is brought forth by gospel preaching. No man is able to deliver his own soul from lies ~ only the Lord can do it (Isaiah 44:18-20).

And as shown faith precedes regeneration

It even precedes the right to it

John 1:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name,

We might add: When Paul said: the sanctification of "the spirit"........... chiefly from the Spirit of God being the author of it; and this being a means fixed in the decree of election to salvation, shows that holiness/good works is not the cause of election, yet is certain by it, and is necessary to give evidence being God's elect; and that the doctrine of election is no licentious doctrine, since it provides for and secures true and real holiness.

Election to salvation is in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Calvinism posits election outside of Christ and is thus unbiblical

This next verse is the best verse you have provided so far, that would seemly give your position any room for a good argument

Acts 26:18​

“To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

God sent Paul unto the Gentiles for the express purpose of opening their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God. Though this is all the work of the Spirit, by whom only the eyes of the understanding are enlightened; yet this is ascribed to the apostle, not as the original and efficient cause, but as the instrument and means through preaching of the Gospel, which the Spirit of God would, and did make use of once one is first quickened to life by the power of God alone.

Acts 26:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you as a servant and a witness not only to the things in which you have seen Me, but also to the things in which I will appear to you, 17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’


two points

1 faith is placed before sanctification

2 nothing is stated about them first being quickened to life.

It does not appear in the passage, and you are begging the question assuming your doctrine

One of the proof texts i offered and you did not address

Colossians 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

being made alive is preceded by forgiveness of sin

Faith and repentance are required before one is forgiven of sin

Your doctrine posits election, regeneration and maybe even forgiveness of sin apart from Christ and is thus totally unbiblical

"That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance"~that is, receive the knowledge of such spiritual blessings which comes through preaching, the only means through which this knowledge is imparted.

"them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"~Which could only mean those made holy by the faith which is in God, or, that faith he secured and provided for his elect in the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation from sin and condemnation is by Jessu Christ alone......... his faith and obedience.

I might come back later after I do a few errands and consider 2nd Corinthians 5;17

No it is speaking of the faith which is in those sanctified

Acts 26:18 (UASV) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Acts 26:18 (ESV) — 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Acts 26:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Acts 26:18 (LSB) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Acts 26:18 (NIV) — 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Scripture does not support your assertion

 

[Studyman]

This is not correct. God's mercy shown in a regenerating sense for the most part is hidden from, we can at best be persuaded, but do not know 100%. No one would have ever thought Lot was a righteous man, unless the Holy Ghost through Peter had told us!

Perhaps this is the case with you, but not with me.

Duet. 2: 19 And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.

Luke 17: 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

Why was Lot not turned to Salt, but his wife was? One was righteous in God's Eyes, and the other wasn't. This would only be hidden to those who hear God's Word, but don't believe Him.

2 Timothy 1:5​

“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.”
This is not speaking of mercy in a regenerating sense, as you want us to believe~God does not withhold mercy until man keeps his word, if so, then no one would ever experience the mercy of God, but his mercy is the reason why we even have a desire to do so! A big difference.

I believe God's Word is also His Mercy. But "many" who have received His Word, will not receive His Mercy in the context of Salvation. And I believe what HE says, even if you or others don't.

Ex. 20: 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

"Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, need God's Mercy to also be granted to men who Transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions. Those Christians in Matt. 7:22 had adopted the same religious philosophy.

For me, I am happy to believe God when HE tells me HE shows Mercy to those who "Yield themselves" servants to obey Him, like Paul teaches.

After all, in ALL the examples of faith, Inspired by God and written for our admonition, it is clearly shown; "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

We agree that God's mercy comes to all those men and women who seek to please God by heeding his word, and his mercy follow unto the next generation if we obey and teach our children as he has commanded us! But, this does not supersede God's mercy first freely given to certain men and women without them even seeking hi, until he first sought them!

Isaiah 65:1​

“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: "I said", Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.” Praise the Lord!

LOL,

Doesn't God call everyone at some point? I don't think you have thought this philosophy through.

Matt. 22: 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Yes God knows the end from the beginning, all would agree. But his mercy toward man is based solely upon the will of God and his good pleasure.

That is your adopted religious philosophy. But as I pointed out, God has already told mankind over and over and over and over, who HE shows Mercy to, and who HE doesn't, in regard to His Kingdom. Paul confirms this.

Rom. 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We should seek God's Truth, not justification of manmade religions.

What God did see was that if he did not have an election of grace, then none would love and serve him. Election is not based upon God for seeing the goodness of man in believing and repenting and loving him.

Again, that is your religion, and a seductive one at that. The philosophy Calvinism promotes, that God picks winners and losers based on some secret holy lottery, in which God gives one man faith, repentance and eternal life, and withholds the same from another based on nothing they choose.

But scriptures, when considering all that is written, do not support this religious philosophy.

I outright reject your preaching that no man would love or serve God unless God forced them through election.

Psalms 14:1-4~"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."

This is why I left your religion 30 years ago Red. You guys pick and choose Scriptures to justify your adopted religion, like you do here. But if a man would just finish the Chapter, your entire philosophy is exposed.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation "of the righteous".

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because "the LORD is his refuge".

So you can see, the children of men didn't seek God. The Fool doesn't believe God. The workers of iniquity, who work to turn men away from God's Word, they are all become filthy, there is none good among them, "NO NOT ONE". And that is where you stop because to continue in the same chapter, you would find others who follow another Path, one in which the followers thereof, "DO" seek God, "DO" understand.

Those who Love God and Keep His commandments, fear (Respect) Him. Those who choose "Life", who choose God's Righteousness over the religious traditions of this world, are not fools, or workers of iniquity, or men who don't seek God. These men, as Paul teaches, "Yield Themselves" servant to obey God, they become "Servants of God's righteousness", not their own. Because obedience to God, is righteousness as Paul teaches in Romans 6:16.

As it is written in another place.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

And God is in the Generation "of the Righteous", at least this is what HE Inspired to be written, that you thought unworthy to post.


Seek God's Truth Red, not justification of your adopted religion. It is God and His Son alone, who can save us from death, not Calvin or Kenneth Copeland or any of this world's religious franchises.

 

[Studyman]

"Again, you cannot find one place where Jesus obeyed His Father"

I'm not sure why you didn't post the whole sentence here. But it seems prudent to include all of my words if you want to reply to them.

"Again, you cannot find one place where Jesus obeyed His Father so that you can live in the doctrines and religious traditions of man".

This is not 100% correct.

So I'm not sure if your reply would change if what I actually said was addressed. Do you really believe Jesus obeyed his Father so religious men could create their own religion?

Maybe you just missed the point of the sentence, I wanted to make sure.

 

[Johann]

So I'm not sure if your reply would change if what I actually said was addressed. Do you really believe Jesus obeyed his Father so religious men could create their own religion?

Maybe you just missed the point of the sentence, I wanted to make sure.

@Studyman I don't miss the point of your sentence and of course I don't believe Jesus obedience to the Father was for men to create their own dogmas of man made religions and philosophies-there's enough of that going on here.
John 4:34

Text: "Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.'"
Context: Jesus speaks to His disciples after conversing with the Samaritan woman at the well. His obedience to the Father’s will is described as His sustenance and purpose.
John 5:19

Text: "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.'"
Context: In a discourse explaining His relationship with the Father, Jesus emphasizes His complete dependence on and alignment with the Father's actions.
John 6:38

Text: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."
Context: Jesus explains His mission to His followers, underscoring that He came to earth to fulfill the Father's will, not His own.
John 8:28-29

Text: "So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.'"
Context: Jesus teaches about His divine mission and unity with the Father, showing His obedience and the Father's presence with Him.
John 14:31

Text: "But I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here."
Context: During the Last Supper, Jesus speaks to His disciples about His forthcoming actions, demonstrating His obedience as an expression of His love for the Father.
Philippians 2:8

Text: "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Context: Paul, in his letter to the Philippians, highlights Jesus’ ultimate act of obedience to the Father’s plan for redemption, through His sacrificial death on the cross.
Hebrews 5:8

Text: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered."
Context: The author of Hebrews points out that Jesus, despite being the Son of God, experienced and demonstrated perfect obedience through His suffering.

Reasons for Jesus' Obedience
To Fulfill God's Will: Jesus' mission was to accomplish the Father’s will, which included teaching, healing, and ultimately, providing salvation through His death and resurrection (John 6:38).

To Demonstrate His Relationship with the Father: Jesus' obedience highlighted His unique relationship with the Father, revealing His divine origin and mission (John 5:19; John 14:31).

To Model Perfect Obedience: Jesus served as a perfect example of obedience for His followers, showing the importance of submitting to God’s will (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8).

To Achieve Redemption: Jesus’ obedience, even unto death, was crucial for the redemption of humanity, fulfilling the necessary sacrifice for sin (Philippians 2:8).

These scriptures collectively illustrate the depth and purpose of Jesus’ obedience to the Father, emphasizing His commitment to fulfilling the divine plan and providing a model for believers to follow.



Greek Word: ὑπακοή (Hypakoē)
Etymology:

Root Words:
ὑπό (hypo): under
ἀκούω (akouo): to hear
Literal Meaning: "to hear under," implying submission to what is heard.
Usage in Scripture
Philippians 2:8

Greek Text: καὶ εὑρεθεὶς ἐν σχήματι ὡς ἄνθρωπος ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος (hypēkoos) μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ.
Translation: "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Word for Obedient: ὑπήκοος (hypēkoos), the adjective form related to ὑπακοή (hypakoē).
Hebrews 5:8

Greek Text: καίπερ ὢν υἱός, ἔμαθεν ἀφ' ὧν ἔπαθεν τὴν ὑπακοήν (hypakoēn).
Translation: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered."
Word for Obedience: ὑπακοήν (hypakoēn), the noun form.


Meaning and Context
ὑπακοή (hypakoē): This word emphasizes the concept of "obedience" as a response to hearing. In the context of Jesus' relationship with the Father, it signifies Jesus' willingness to submit to the Father's will, even unto death.


Context of Philippians 2:8: This passage highlights Jesus' humility and obedience in the incarnation and crucifixion. It shows the depth of Jesus' submission to the Father's plan for salvation.


Context of Hebrews 5:8: This passage explains that Jesus, although divine, experienced and learned obedience through His suffering, underscoring His complete submission to the Father's will.
Conclusion


The Greek word ὑπακοή (hypakoē) and its related forms ὑπακούω (hypakouo) and ὑπήκοος (hypēkoos) are used in the New Testament to describe Jesus' obedience to the Father. The etymology of ὑπακοή (hypakoē) reflects the idea of hearing under authority, which is central to understanding Jesus' relationship with the Father and His mission on earth.

--and not about establishing our righteousness, our "religion" and our "philosophies and opinions"

You may agree to disagree.
Johann

 

[Studyman]

Christ causes His People to depart from iniquity, its a blessing of His Death for them Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Thats because His Death redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

No disrespect but you know nothing of the power of Christs death to save !

I don't play the game, "My verse beats up your verse". You are ignoring the Scriptures I posted.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't play the game, "My verse beats up your verse". You are ignoring the Scriptures I posted.

See you at the Judgment and see if Im playing games friend

 

[civic]

Will Jesus say this to you ?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’