Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[TomL]

Greetings Doug,

While I can appreciate your use of God's word, and I do, in all sincerity, I reject your conclusions, based on your own reasoning.

What I highlighted above I desire for you to consider with me your statement. I'll be short.

Doug, the gospel of Jesus Christ declares God can be just while justifying sinners without any works of the law, or a law (a commandment) whereby man has an active part in. The gospel of God wherein the righteousness of God is revealed, or how man becomes righteous, is 100% secured by one man, Jesus Christ's perfect faith and obedience for all whom he was a surety for. And he was not for all, for if that was so, then all would have their sins forgiven~the law of double jeopardy demands this.

First you appear to allude to this verse

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

You will note who this applies to

him which believeth in Jesus.

Second you argue based upon an assume understanding of Christ's atonement as being a commercial transaction.

i.e. Christ purchased forgiveness, so man must receive it

Rather than view the atonement as a provisionary measure by which those who believe will be saved you assume it acts of itself to remit the sins of those it is made for

that is begging the question and does not reflect the biblical data

John 3:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


God's love and the giving of his son is directed to the world not some unconditional select men. So the double payment argument is without merit'

Your premise is rejected by the Calvinist theologian WGT Shedd

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

Who argues the making of atonement does not save of itself as Atonement without faith is powerless to save

 

[Doug Brents]

No, it was in payment for them having obeyed. "If you do this, I will do that."

Is it payment of a debt to do for someone what it is impossible for them to do, or for them to repay, even if you set conditions on the giving? No. Naaman could not have cured his disease. Even today leprosy is incurable. And dipping in Jordan had no value to God. It did not increase God's strength, power, glory, or in any way benefit Him. But that was the condition God set through the prophet for his cleansing, and he would not have been cleansed if he did not do it. That is what faith is: acting in trust.

 

[brightfame52]

We know that God elected individuals to Salvation because they as individuals believe in time, yet they were ordained to eternal life before time Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Eternal Life was promised before the world began Titus 1:2

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Now who was it promised to but to them He ordained to eternal life

Now the actual persons ordained to eternal life were not in actual existence, yet their Covenant Head and Sponser Christ Jesus was, and it was to Him as their Head was the promise made, hence John writes 1 Jn 2:25

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 6

 

[Red Baker]

First you appear to allude to this verse

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Tom, That's one of many.

You will note who this applies to ......him which believeth in Jesus.

No problem Tom~the righteousness of God is upon all that truly believes....therefore, faith is, identifying mark, or evidence of those that have the righteousness of God freely imputed to them by the grace of God alone.

Tom, righteousness freely imputeth cannot be by Jesus' faith and obedience and then ours, it is either or, and the scriptures are clear:

Romans 3:21-24~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

All of God children with true understanding said...Amen and Amen.

Second you argue based upon an assume understanding of Christ's atonement as being a commercial transaction.

i.e. Christ purchased forgiveness, so man must receive it

Must and will~Tom is the teaching of the word of the Living God.

Luke 19:5-9~"And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

A spiritual son of Abraham~Romans 2:28.29! Praise the Lord, thank you Lord for word that giveth light unto the simple and those that trust fully in the scriptures for their doctrine.

that is begging the question and does not reflect the biblical data

John 3:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Tom. you are blinded to the truth at the moment, it may change only God knows.

John 3:14,16 does not even come close to say what you wish it did. No conditions to be met in John 3:16....for all it is saying is declaring bible truths~therefore, those that believe shall never perish in the lake of fire and they are now in possession of everlasting life. Also. God's love no longer limited to one nation, as it was in the OT for the most part, but his love is to all the world Jews and Gentiles. The world in John 3;16 is not all without exception, but all without distinction! As is beautifully proven by Acts 10.

Your premise is rejected by the Calvinist theologian WGT Shedd

I'll address this later, since I have a meeting in a few minutes~but, Calvinist is term used to describes many different types of believers, so what if he's in error, many of them are weak on many truths concerning the gospel. Later.....RB

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

No problem Tom~the righteousness of God is upon all that truly believes....therefore, faith is, identifying mark, or evidence of those that have the righteousness of God freely imputed to them by the grace of God alone.

Correct, that[believing faith] Identifies them as His Seed, wherever Righteousness has been imputed, Faith will be given for them to believe. Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Doug Brents]

Greetings Doug,

While I can appreciate your use of God's word, and I do, in all sincerity, I reject your conclusions, based on your own reasoning.

What I highlighted above I desire for you to consider with me your statement. I'll be short.

Doug, the gospel of Jesus Christ declares God can be just while justifying sinners without any works of the law, or a law (a commandment) whereby man has an active part in. The gospel of God wherein the righteousness of God is revealed, or how man becomes righteous, is 100% secured by one man, Jesus Christ's perfect faith and obedience for all whom he was a surety for. And he was not for all, for if that was so, then all would have their sins forgiven~the law of double jeopardy demands this.

Jesus died for ALL mankind, not just the "elect" (1 John 2:2 - "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."). Jesus died for EVERYONE.

Since He died for everyone, and he desires everyone to be saved (2 Pet 3:9), everyone is able to be saved. But we know that the vast majority of humanity will be condemned. So that means that there is something that causes us to be either saved or condemned. Scripture tells us that the "something" is our obedience (Heb 5:9).

The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. God is more righteous than any law man could ever come up with~God does not punish twice for the same crime.... if sins have been paid for in full..........Christ did just that for all whom he was a surety for!

There have been many cases where a person was offered amnesty or clemency for a crime but refused to accept and so were punished for the crime even though they could have gone free without punishment. Even though Jesus has died for everyone, and everyone could be saved, only those who accept His grace will receive the benefit of it. Only those who submit to Him and obey His commands will be saved.

We will add this~if Jesus Christ was a surety for certain people, and he was indeed, then God must impart eternal life to that person sometime between their conception and death of their body~which he does~perfect example would be John the Baptist, and the thief on the cross. Neither of which were baptized in water before they had experience the new birth, which proves that salvation from sin and condemnation is 100% pure grace without any mixture of works on the sinner's part............him having an active part in. At least it should prove this bible truth, if folks would not close their eyes to the truth for their own agenda.

Did Jesus have the power and authority to forgive sin at His sole discretion while He was in the flesh on Earth? Yes, absolutely He did (Matt 9:6). So when Jesus, still in the flesh and before His death, said to the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise, it was so. But Jesus is not in the flesh today to tell each person they will see Him in paradise. But He has left His written Word (the Bible) with instructions on how to receive His forgiveness and salvation. And it tells us that repentance leads to forgiveness (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and those who are baptized will be saved (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Eph 5:26-27).

Doug, the condition is man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. The word of God clearly states that man is dead in trespasses and sin, and the Spirit of God by his power alone raises the sinner from death unto life in Jesus Christ, for Jesus' sake alone based upon him securing that life for them by his faith and obedience.

Certainly it is by Jesus' power alone. We have no power, and our obedience to Him provides no power to affect our sin. Man is certainly dead (cut off from God, the giver of life) in trespasses against God. Yet God has given us a way to be restored to union with Him through obedience to His Son.

Doug even more than this, in the mind and will of God this legally took place when Christ died and rose again and we IN HIM did likewise.

The price was paid when Jesus died. But the atonement is not applied to us until we are baptized into Christ (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21). Legally, the atonement will not be applied until Judgement where we stand before the Judgement seat of God. But practically we know that we have His forgiveness the instant that we are buried with Him in baptism and are remade and resurrected in Him.

Ephesians 2:4-6~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We have never been view outside of Christ, legally speaking, practically, of course, but not legally~and never will be.

EVERYONE is outside of Christ until they accept His forgiveness and obey Him (Rom 1:18-2:1, 3:21-24).

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

Jesus died for ALL mankind, not just the "elect" (1 John 2:2 - "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."). Jesus died for EVERYONE.

False witness, He died only for the election of Grace.

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus died for ALL mankind, not just the "elect" (1 John 2:2 - "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."). Jesus died for EVERYONE.

Doug, my post to you was worded to cause you to say more about your doctrine, and you did, so now I can hope to get two birds (you and Tom) with one stone (post).

Doug, this scripture has been addressed more than once, but I will do so again.

Two things to consider: First, the world in 1st John 2:2 has reference to not for the Jews only, but also for the Gentiles nations~we know not all is of the Israel of God, that was of Israel~the children of Abraham, only the children of God's promises among them were counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-11.

Secondly, the apostles, all of them except Paul, were sent only to the circumcision, Paul and those with him were sent unto the Gentiles, so John's epistles were written to Jewish converts, based on this scripture:

Galatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

So, when John used the word world, he meant Jews and Gentiles.

Doug, you cannot build your doctrine on mere sounds of words, but you must rightly divide the word of truth. 2nd Timothy 2:15; Nehemiah 8:8; etc.

Since He died for everyone, and he desires everyone to be saved (2 Pet 3:9), everyone is able to be saved.

There you go again playing on the mere sound of words without making sure you doctrine is not contradicting other scriptures, which they will if you continue looking for the sound bites to support your agenda, instated of having the scriptures interpreting each other and supporting each other.

2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Doug who are the "us-ward" of 2nd Peter 3:9?

2nd Peter 1:1-4~"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Doug, again, let me ask you who are the us-ward? Them that have obtained by grace like precious faith! Jesus' faith was given freely to them in the new man created after the image of Jesús Christ! It is not God will that any of the children of his promises perish before they have this gift of faith and repentance. God's will cannot ever be defeated by all of the powers of darkness, impossible.

There have been many cases where a person was offered amnesty or clemency for a crime but refused to accept and so were punished for the crime even though they could have gone free without punishment. Even though Jesus has died for everyone, and everyone could be saved, only those who accept His grace will receive the benefit of it. Only those who submit to Him and obey His commands will be saved.

Doug, we are not talking about a gift offered, but a gift secured and freely given by grace! Your quote is screaming of works not grace, grace!

Zechariah 4:7​

“Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.”

But He has left His written Word (the Bible) with instructions on how to receive His forgiveness and salvation. And it tells us that repentance leads to forgiveness (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and those who are baptized will be saved (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Eph 5:26-27).

Doug~The gospel of Jesus Christ does not give instructions on how to receive his forgiveness, but a message of the good news on how CHRIST SECURED eternal life for his people. One is based on work (yours, Tom's) and the other by the apostles of how the better covenant secured eternal life mainly by two immutable acts of God...his oath and his promises and fulfilled by the obedience of his Son. To be very brief for now.

Certainly it is by Jesus' power alone. We have no power, and our obedience to Him provides no power to affect our sin. Man is certainly dead (cut off from God, the giver of life) in trespasses against God. Yet God has given us a way to be restored to union with Him through obedience to His Son.

No Doug, not our obedience to his Son, but his Son's obedience and faith~that's the difference between the two gospels being preach on this forum!

Romans 5:18,19~"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Doug, can you not see the difference between the two gospels being preached? Surely you must.

I'll try to come back and answer one more for Tom and these last two for you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, my post to you was worded to cause you to say more about your doctrine, and you did, so now I can hope to get two birds (you and Tom) with one stone (post).

Doug, this scripture has been addressed more than once, but I will do so again.

Two things to consider: First, the world in 1st John 2:2 has reference to not for the Jews only, but also for the Gentiles nations~we know not all is of the Israel of God, that was of Israel~the children of Abraham, only the children of God's promises among them were counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-11.

John's letters were written in the 90s, and by that time most of the Church was Gentile. He was not writing to a primarily Jewish audience, but to the Church as a whole, regardless of the genetic stock from which they came. His reference is not to "Jews only". His reference is to the Church, "Not us (the Church) only, but of the whole world."

Secondly, the apostles, all of them except Paul, were sent only to the circumcision, Paul and those with him were sent unto the Gentiles, so John's epistles were written to Jewish converts, based on this scripture:

Galatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

Peter was the first sent to Gentiles, and he continued to teach and minister to Gentiles as evidenced by Gal 2:11-13. They began ministering only to the Jews, but they all expanded their ministry to the Gentiles, and many of them were martyred in Gentile countries.

So, when John used the word world, he meant Jews and Gentiles.

Jews and Gentiles, EVERYONE. Not just those Jews and Gentiles in the Church, but all Jews and Gentiles everywhere.

There you go again playing on the mere sound of words without making sure you doctrine is not contradicting other scriptures, which they will if you continue looking for the sound bites to support your agenda, instated of having the scriptures interpreting each other and supporting each other.

2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Doug who are the "us-ward" of 2nd Peter 3:9?

2nd Peter 1:1-4~"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Doug, again, let me ask you who are the us-ward? Them that have obtained by grace like precious faith! Jesus' faith was given freely to them in the new man created after the image of Jesús Christ! It is not God will that any of the children of his promises perish before they have this gift of faith and repentance. God's will cannot ever be defeated by all of the powers of darkness, impossible.

Who is condemned before God? Everyone, for all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. So then, who needs salvation? Everyone, for everyone is in need of salvation from a debt they cannot pay. So then, who needs God to be longsuffering? Everyone, for no one can pay the debt they owe, and need the Savior who has paid that debt for them. And all who accept His offer will receive His blessing. But those who don't accept Him will not receive His blessing.

Doug, we are not talking about a gift offered, but a gift secured and freely given by grace! Your quote is screaming of works not grace, grace!

Zechariah 4:7​

“Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.”

Doug~The gospel of Jesus Christ does not give instructions on how to receive his forgiveness, but a message of the good news on how CHRIST SECURED eternal life for his people. One is based on work (yours, Tom's) and the other by the apostles of how the better covenant secured eternal life mainly by two immutable acts of God...his oath and his promises and fulfilled by the obedience of his Son. To be very brief for now.

His gift was certainly secured by Him. It was paid in full for every soul that has ever been born. But it is not received by everyone, because many will not accept Him as Lord and Master.

No Doug, not our obedience to his Son, but his Son's obedience and faith~that's the difference between the two gospels being preach on this forum!

Romans 5:18,19~"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Doug, can you not see the difference between the two gospels being preached? Surely you must.

I'll try to come back and answer one more for Tom and these last two for you.

The only difference is that you, by your doctrine, negate the Word of God. You remove all the requirements of God that HE laid out for what it takes to receive His blessing. I'm pretty sure I asked you before, but maybe I asked someone else: in Rom 10:9-10 does "confess with the mouth" (which is obviously a physical action), does it result in salvation? or does salvation result in confession of Jesus? What does Scripture say?

 

[civic]

It goes without saying that election is unconditional. If it is conditional upon something we do, then it is not grace.

There is no verse mentioning unconditional election it’s made up.

 

[synergy]

You use save/saved/salivation in one broad sense, when the scriptures do not~but, for now, salvation from sin and condemnation does not require any active work on the sinner's part~which has been proven many times over. In regeneration, God alone is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

Let's look at what the Bible says and not what Calvinists say. Mark 1:15 records the following from Christ:

15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe (πιστεύετε) in the gospel.”

The Greek word πιστεύετε (believe) is an imperative active verb. Christ implores/exhorts us to actively believe. That's our active part. There is nothing passive about it.

What part did you have in your natural birth, pray to tell me? As a matter of fact, God never consulted with you or me, about our conception and birth, our sex, our parents, where we would be born, our height, IQ level, looks, and hundreds more things. More than that, he never even ask you if we wanted to be born, he put our life into being based own his own sovereign will and pleasure.

One moment we're talking about belief next moment you're talking about birth. Of course you were not consulted when you were born. Why the silliness? Stop embarrassing yourself.

As to your teaching concerning faith being require before one is regenerated is false~John the Baptist was full of the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb~which proves he was regenerated in her womb by the Spirit of God apart from faith!

Consider Isaac~what part did he have in being born by the power of God? Not one thing! Isaac was a perfect type of how each and every child of God is born~by the oath and promises of God. Do you not agree?

Galatians 4:28~"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Isaac did not excise faith in order to be born, he was born by God's oath and promise, period!

Are you telling me that Pentecost happened before the Day of Pentecost? Nobody was ever regenerated before Pentecost, not even the OT Prophets. In fact, regeneration was a future event as prophesied in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

(Ezek 36:26-27) “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”

Never shipped over anything~I gave it as a reference scripture in support of what I was saying.

But I can easily and scripturally speak on this scripture. As a matter of truth, you truly do not want us to do so, but if you do, let me know and I will address John 1:12,13 if you truly desire for me to do so. But I think you are just blowing smoke, which is all you are capable of doing, that I can see.

Anybody can see that those who believe (in verse 12) were given the power to be born of God (in verse 13).

 

[Red Baker]

Let's look at what the Bible says and not what Calvinists say. Mark 1:15 records the following from Christ:

Also, not what a staunch Arminian said~I'm with you on that, no problem.

15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe (πιστεύετε) in the gospel.”

The Greek word πιστεύετε (believe) is an imperative active verb. Christ implores/exhorts us to actively believe. That's our active part. There is nothing passive about it.

No problem, I believe that as well, just different than your corrupt teaching.

One moment we're talking about belief next moment you're talking about birth. Of course you were not consulted when you were born. Why the silliness? Stop embarrassing yourself.

Actually it is you that is embarrassing yourself~did you not carefully read what I said?

You use save/saved/salivation in one broad sense, when the scriptures do not~but, for now, salvation from sin and condemnation does not require any active work on the sinner's part~which has been proven many times over. In regeneration, God alone is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

I was speaking of regeneration, it was you that is very confused and truly do not follow the arguments very well.

Man is very active in believing the gospel, repenting, and being baptized into the faith/rellgion/teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of of wording in and through the new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ.

Are you telling me that Pentecost happened before the Day of Pentecost? Nobody was ever regenerated before Pentecost, not even the OT Prophets. In fact, regeneration was a future event as prophesied in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

How blind can man be, folks like you are proving man's total depravity every time you make a post! I have proved this before by many infallible proofs from God's testimony~do I need to do this again in a single post covering just this truth? I will if needed and will also cover Ezekiel 36:26,27 which speak of the New Covenant, which covenant was in operation all through the OT which can be proven. Each Covenant God made with men like Noah, Abraham, David was nothing more than a little more revelation of making the everlasting covenant known.

Anybody can see that those who believe (in verse 12) were given the power to be born of God (in verse 13).

Okay, then why preach against this truth, or, are you just making a statement, not truly understanding what you are saying? Who knows with men like you!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You use save/saved/salivation in one broad sense, when the scriptures do not~but, for now, salvation from sin and condemnation does not require any active work on the sinner's part~which has been proven many times over. In regeneration, God alone is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

Pavlov achieved salivation by ringing a bell. Easy peasey.

 

[synergy]

Also, not what a staunch Arminian said~I'm with you on that, no problem.
No problem, I believe that as well, just different than your corrupt teaching.
Actually it is you that is embarrassing yourself~did you not carefully read what I said?
I was speaking of regeneration, it was you that is very confused and truly do not follow the arguments very well.
Man is very active in believing the gospel, repenting, and being baptized into the faith/rellgion/teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of of wording in and through the new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ.

With your belief that man's belief is an active belief, do you agree that the monergistic passive faith that calvinism promotes (i.e. no human contributing factor involved) is a dead faith? See James 2:20-24.

How blind can man be, folks like you are proving man's total depravity every time you make a post! I have proved this before by many infallible proofs from God's testimony~do I need to do this again in a single post covering just this truth? I will if needed and will also cover Ezekiel 36:26,27 which speak of the New Covenant, which covenant was in operation all through the OT which can be proven. Each Covenant God made with men like Noah, Abraham, David was nothing more than a little more revelation of making the everlasting covenant known.

Ez 36:26-27 totally destroys any idea that regeneration occurred in the OT. It's staring you in the face and there is nothing you can do about it.

Okay, then why preach against this truth, or, are you just making a statement, not truly understanding what you are saying? Who knows with men like you!

Therefore, the truth that belief preceedes regeneration once again prevails. John 1:12-13 clearly demonstrates that fact.

 

[TomL]

Tom, That's one of many.

No problem Tom~the righteousness of God is upon all that truly believes....therefore, faith is, identifying mark, or evidence of those that have the righteousness of God freely imputed to them by the grace of God alone.

It is also how one is imputed righteous

Romans 4:1–24 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Tom, righteousness freely imputeth cannot be by Jesus' faith and obedience and then ours, it is either or, and the scriptures are clear:

Romans 3:21-24~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Better read again

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
add

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Red Baker]

With your belief that man's belief is an active belief, do you agree that the monergistic passive faith that calvinism promotes (i.e. no human contributing factor involved) is a dead faith? See James 2:20-24.

synergy~ you do not fully understand Calvinism, or Calvinism as preached back in the 1500-1660 hundred~and you certainly do not understand high/hyper Calvinism, preached by the Particular Baptist around the world in the 1600's. If you did you would not asked such ignorance question.

Also your question is deceitfully and craftly presented.

Man's belief is active only after God creates within him a new man, not before. Once regenerated, from that point forward, there will be fruits of the Spirit on display in that person's life. A few prerequisites must be in place before one is displaying the fruits of the Spirit. To the degree one heeds scriptures will be to the degree the fruits of the Spirit is evident in one life. Start out with milk of the word and move on to the meat of God's word, this take TIME, some move quickly, others slower, but all display spiritual life in some form or another. Abraham and Lot are two perfect examples.

2nd Peter 2:7-9~"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

So much for your lying theory that OT men and women were not born again! How spiritually ignorant can some people be of the scriptures you are showing us.

Ez 36:26-27 totally destroys any idea that regeneration occurred in the OT. It's staring you in the face and there is nothing you can do about it.

Dream on dreamer! I can that's no problem, what I cannot do is open your blinded heart to the truth, only God can do such miracles, the question would be, is it in his will to do so, that's yet to be seen, it is very clear he has not as of yet.

In the meantime, start with Hebrews eleven and explain how those OT saints who died IN FAITH, meaning born again children of God, have faith? and what makes many of them so much more greater than you or I? For they certainly were, without a question. Remember faith is the fruit of the Spirit of God~the main difference between OT saints and NT saints is KNOWLEDGE of these things which the rellgion of Jesus Christ brings to the world~Jews and Gentiles.

Therefore, the truth that belief preceedes regeneration

Like breathing procedes life.....like seeing, hearing and talking procedes life....how spiritually ignorant can one be. My little grandchildren would laugh at you~my older ones who are computer science, scientist, Neurosurgeon (still in school, a twelve year process) would tell you that you need serious help.

That's what false religion does to a person, it removes their ability to THINK, and REASON outside of their cult, or their false understanding.

1st Kings 18:27,28~"And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them."

 

[TomL]

synergy~ you do not fully understand Calvinism, or Calvinism as preached back in the 1500-1660 hundred~and you certainly do not understand high/hyper Calvinism, preached by the Particular Baptist around the world in the 1600's. If you did you would not asked such ignorance question.

Also your question is deceitfully and craftly presented.

Man's belief is active only after God creates within him a new man, not before. Once regenerated, from that point forward, there will be fruits of the Spirit on display in that person's life. A few prerequisites must be in place before one is displaying the fruits of the Spirit. To the degree one heeds scriptures will be to the degree the fruits of the Spirit is evident in one life. Start out with milk of the word and move on to the meat of God's word, this take TIME, some move quickly, others slower, but all display spiritual life in some form or another. Abraham and Lot are two perfect examples.

Not if you believe scripture

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[Rockson]

Man is very active in believing the gospel, repenting, and being baptized into the faith/rellgion/teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of of wording in and through the new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ.

It seems you're merely giving window dressing using the word believing because you knows God stresses the word . You don't however know what to do with the word so you try to fit it in somewhere using it somehow. Fact is you don't believe, believing is really UNTO anything as Rom 10:10 says it is "believe and confession made UNTO salvation" Sorry but you're saying salvation has been imparted BEFORE the gospel.

To readers notice his words, "It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit" and "through the new man which has been created" Notice his words has been created that is past tense before the gospel . I trust all would consider that a serious departure from the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus taught believe and be saved NOT you're saved if you have a changed life and now I'm going to tell you what happened to you before you heard the gospel. That is a reversal and not scriptural. Stay rather with Rom 10:10 which says believing is UNTO salvation.

 

[Red Baker]

Not if you believe scripture

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

Mr. Psittacine~you need to learn more words, you just repeat the same thing over and over again, even when all have been addressed.

The following verses show faith precedes life

Your understanding fails the Litmus for truth.

That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by...

2nd Thessalonians 2:13—”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” Note that “sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”?

We answer, THE NEW BIRTH. In Scripture “sanctification” ALWAYS means “separation,” separation from something and unto something or someone.” [A.W. Pink]

First there is a “NEW CREATION” (2nd Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10), and then the “NEW CREATURE” is stirred into exercise. Faith and all other graces are wrought in us by the Spirit through the instrumentality of Word, but not so with the principle of life and grace from which these graces proceed.

In His work of “quickening,” by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from WITHIN, and not by applying something from WITHOUT. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY INSTRUMENT: the WORD IS USED BY HIM AFTERWARDS to call into exercise the life then communicated.

Regeneration is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit. It is the action of Spirit upon spirit, of a Divine Person upon a human person, whereby spiritual life is imparted. Nothing, therefore, of the nature of means or instruments can come between the Holy Spirit and the soul that is made alive. God did not employ an instrument or means when He infused physical life into the body of Adam. There were only two factors: the dust of the ground and the creative power of God which vivified that dust. The Divine omnipotence and dead matter were brought into direct contact, with nothing interposing. The dust was not a means or instrument by which God originated life. So in regeneration there are only two factors: the human soul destitute of spiritual life, and the Holy Spirit who quickens it.

The word and truth of God, the most important of all the means of grace, is not a means of regeneration, as distinct from conviction, conversion and sanctification. This is evident when we remember that it is the office of a means or instrument, to excite or stimulate an already existing principle of life. Physical food is a means of physical growth, but it SUPPOSES physical vitality, if the body is dead, bread cannot be a means or instrument. Intellectual truth is a means of intellectual growth, but it supposes intellectual vitality. If the mind be idiotic, secular knowledge cannot be a means or instrument. Spiritual truth is a means of spiritual growth, in case there be spiritual vitality. But if the mind be dead to righteousness, spiritual truth cannot be a means or instrument.

“The unenlightened understanding is unable to apprehend, and the unregenerate will is unable to believe. Vital force is lacking in these two principal factors. What is needed at this point is life and force itself. Consequently, the Author of spiritual life Himself must operate directly, without the use of means or instruments; and OUTRIGHT give spiritual life and power from the dead: that is, ex nihilo. The new life is not imparted because man perceives the truth, but he perceives the truth because the new life is imparted. A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated.” (W. T. Shedd, Presbyterian, 1889)

“Fallen man is not regenerated by any instinct, choice, or exertion of his own; he does not by any personal endeavor contribute anything towards being born again; nor does he cooperate in the least degree with the efficient cause: instead, every inclination of his heart, every exercise of his will, is in direct opposition thereto.

The new birth is not brought about by the power and influence of others. No sinner is ever born again as the result of the persuasions and endeavors of preachers or Christian workers. However pious and wise they are, and however earnestly and strenuously they exert themselves to bring others to holiness, they do in no degree produce the effect. “If all the angels and saints in Heaven and all the godly on earth should join their wills and endeavors and unitedly exert all their powers to regenerate one sinner, they could not effect it; yea, they could do nothing toward it. It is an effect INFINITELY beyond the reach of finite wisdom and power!” [S. Hopkins].

“In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act, but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart—such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God. This great change is wrought in spite of all the opposition of the natural heart against God: “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy” (Rom. 9:16). This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.” [A.W. Pink]

Now here’s the kicker – the ‘Gospel’ itself actually saves no one but brings to light the life and immortality which the regenerated soul has been made a partaker of. A spiritually dead soul CANNOT hear the gospel and be saved! But the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates the dead soul without any external means! And THEN the gospel is brought to this soul which has been made alive to reveal what has happened to it.

Read these two verses very prayerfully and meditate on them –

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!” [2ndTim 1:9,10]

Notice the "order" Tom, “Who hath saved us, and called us . . .” God first sovereignly saves us by the operation of the Holy Spirit and THEN calls us through the Gospel! In other words God does not call and save but He saves and then calls! Sovereign regeneration FIRST and then conversion through the Gospel!

And notice again WHAT the role of the gospel is in salvation – “it BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality” through the gospel! When Scripture says – “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” [1Pet 1:23] The sense is the word of God gives witness/testimony concerning how one is born again!

 

[civic]

It seems you're merely giving window dressing using the word believing because you knows God stresses the word . You don't however know what to do with the word so you try to fit it in somewhere using it somehow. Fact is you don't believe, believing is really UNTO anything as Rom 10:10 says it is "believe and confession made UNTO salvation" Sorry but you're saying salvation has been imparted BEFORE the gospel.

To readers notice his words, "It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit" and "through the new man which has been created" Notice his words has been created that is past tense before the gospel . I trust all would consider that a serious departure from the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus taught believe and be saved NOT you're saved if you have a changed life and now I'm going to tell you what happened to you before you heard the gospel. That is a reversal and not scriptural. Stay rather with Rom 10:10 which says believing is UNTO salvation.

Spot on brother with faith and salvation where faith comes prior to one being saved.