Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Johann]

It seems you're merely giving window dressing using the word believing because you knows God stresses the word . You don't however know what to do with the word so you try to fit it in somewhere using it somehow. Fact is you don't believe, believing is really UNTO anything as Rom 10:10 says it is "believe and confession made UNTO salvation" Sorry but you're saying salvation has been imparted BEFORE the gospel.

To readers notice his words, "It is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit" and "through the new man which has been created" Notice his words has been created that is past tense before the gospel . I trust all would consider that a serious departure from the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus taught believe and be saved NOT you're saved if you have a changed life and now I'm going to tell you what happened to you before you heard the gospel. That is a reversal and not scriptural. Stay rather with Rom 10:10 which says believing is UNTO salvation.

I.e. Eis--wouldn't say this is a serious departure from the Scriptures since we all are in need of correction-who knows, maybe you are slightly off re the core tenets of the gospel, hence the more reason we need each other in the Somati of our Lord Christ Jesus. Right?

We are to rightly cutting straight the D'varim of YHVH and we DO need each other as per----

1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (KJV)
This passage is the most detailed and comprehensive explanation of the metaphor of the body of Christ:

Verses 12-14: "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

Verses 15-20: "If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body."

Verses 21-27: "And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

Romans 12:4-5 (KJV)
Paul briefly touches on the same metaphor here:

Verses 4-5: "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

These passages emphasize the importance of each member of the body of Christ, regardless of their function or perceived importance. Just as every part of a physical body has a unique and essential role, every believer has a unique and essential role within the Church. This metaphor beautifully illustrates the interdependence of believers and the unity that should characterize the Christian community.

This is not a rebuke @Rockson so don't take it personally.
Shalom to you and family.

 

[civic]

I.e. Eis--wouldn't say this is a serious departure from the Scriptures since we all are in need of correction-who knows, maybe you are slightly off re the core tenets of the gospel, hence the more reason we need each other in the Somati of our Lord Christ Jesus. Right?

We are to rightly cutting straight the D'varim of YHVH and we DO need each other as per----

1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (KJV)
This passage is the most detailed and comprehensive explanation of the metaphor of the body of Christ:

Verses 12-14: "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

Verses 15-20: "If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body."

Verses 21-27: "And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

Romans 12:4-5 (KJV)
Paul briefly touches on the same metaphor here:

Verses 4-5: "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

These passages emphasize the importance of each member of the body of Christ, regardless of their function or perceived importance. Just as every part of a physical body has a unique and essential role, every believer has a unique and essential role within the Church. This metaphor beautifully illustrates the interdependence of believers and the unity that should characterize the Christian community.

This is not a rebuke @Rockson so don't take it personally.
Shalom to you and family.

It also say not many should become teachers for you will judged more strictly .

 

[Red Baker]

It seems you're merely giving window dressing using the word believing because you knows God stresses the word.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, that we all know.

You don't however know what to do with the word so you try to fit it in somewhere using it somehow.

I know very well how to use faith. I'll come back and do a post dealing only with faith, maybe later today after two meetings. For now. let me continue.

Fact is you don't believe, believing is really UNTO anything as Rom 10:10 says it is "believe and confession made UNTO salvation"

I have dealt with this once before for someone, maybe even you~for now, Romans 10:9 is dealing with salvation in a practical sense for the elect Jews knowledge of the truth, a truth they were struggling with, that caused them to labor in order to establish their own righteousness! Context in Romans 10:1-8 proves this. These Jews were doing just what you are your friends are now doing!

Romans 10:1-3~Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

I'm sure you fear God and have a sincere zeal for him , but it is NOT based upon biblical knowledge!

Sorry but you're saying salvation has been imparted BEFORE the gospel.

In a vital, regenerating sense, yes indeed! But not practical, that's where faith in the scriptures come into play, that's why we are here battling with you and others!

Notice his words has been created that is past tense before the gospel

Please by all means notice what I'm saying!

1st Corinthians 1:18-21~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

The salvation here (verse 21)is the knowledge of God by man, not regeneration or eternal life. The salvation here is the practical phase of our salvation, which is the education of the elect. Salvation in 1:18 is primarily vital salvation – regeneration; here it is practical – conversion.

 

[Johann]

Without faith it is impossible to please God, that we all know.


I know very well how to use faith. I'll come back and do a post dealing only with faith, maybe later today after two meetings. For now. let me continue.


I have dealt with this once before for someone, maybe even you~for now, Romans 10:9 is dealing with salvation in a practical sense for the elect Jews knowledge of the truth, a truth they were struggling with, that caused them to labor in order to establish their own righteousness! Context in Romans 10:1-8 proves this. These Jews were doing just what you are your friends are now doing!

Romans 10:1-3~Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

I'm sure you fear God and have a sincere zeal for him , but it is NOT based upon biblical knowledge!


In a vital, regenerating sense, yes indeed! But not practical, that's where faith in the scriptures come into play, that's why we are here battling with you and others!


Please by all means notice what I'm saying!

1st Corinthians 1:18-21~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

The salvation here (verse 21)is the knowledge of God by man, not regeneration or eternal life. The salvation here is the practical phase of our salvation, which is the education of the elect. Salvation in 1:18 is primarily vital salvation – regeneration; here it is practical – conversion.

Nicely done!

 

[Johann]

Without faith it is impossible to please God, that we all know.


I know very well how to use faith. I'll come back and do a post dealing only with faith, maybe later today after two meetings. For now. let me continue.


I have dealt with this once before for someone, maybe even you~for now, Romans 10:9 is dealing with salvation in a practical sense for the elect Jews knowledge of the truth, a truth they were struggling with, that caused them to labor in order to establish their own righteousness! Context in Romans 10:1-8 proves this. These Jews were doing just what you are your friends are now doing!

Romans 10:1-3~Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

I'm sure you fear God and have a sincere zeal for him , but it is NOT based upon biblical knowledge!


In a vital, regenerating sense, yes indeed! But not practical, that's where faith in the scriptures come into play, that's why we are here battling with you and others!


Please by all means notice what I'm saying!

1st Corinthians 1:18-21~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

The salvation here (verse 21)is the knowledge of God by man, not regeneration or eternal life. The salvation here is the practical phase of our salvation, which is the education of the elect. Salvation in 1:18 is primarily vital salvation – regeneration; here it is practical – conversion.

Should be interesting to follow up this discussion.

 

[Studyman]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

God already tells us who HE will have mercy on and who HE will not have mercy on by the time we get to Ex. 33.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Since HE has already seen the beginning and end of every man's life from the creation of the world, HE knows who will listen to and "Yield themselves to obey Him" (Rom. 6:16) and who will not.

As HE says in Deut. 30:

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set" before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The Jesus "of the Bible" taught the same thing.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Those who "Choose Life" are the elect, destined to receive God's Mercy as HE promised, and God cannot lie.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Again, God has clearly shown who receives mercy and who doesn't.

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
"Choose Life!"

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

The Children do not know the future, but God does. We are simply told by the Spirit of Christ in David;

Ps. 95: 6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Paul understood this and taught the same.
1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were "our examples", to the intent "we should not lust" after evil things, as they also lusted.

Therefore, "today" if God places before you life and good, death and evil, Choose Life! For why will you die?

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This is true. It's not our program. Salvation belongs to God, not one of this world's religious sects or businesses. Paul said "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God "hath before ordained" that we should walk in them.

We didn't do anything to make any of these things happen. God has told us who will receive His Mercy. Men either believe in Him, and "Choose Life". Or they do as Eve, and listen to the "other voices" in the garden God placed us in. Simple enough for a child to understand.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvific purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

God has told us over and over and over why so many Jews were lost. They didn't believe in Him, AKA, "have faith" as it is written;

Deut. 32: 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. (Caleb and Joshua, and those whose refuge in the Lord, for God is in the Generation of the Righteous. Ps. 14: 4-6)

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

God doesn't just pick winners and losers based on some invisible Holy Lottery. He has told us who the elect is from the very beginning. "If you do well, will you not be accepted"?

The Jesus "of the Bible" said we are to Live By Every word of God, so these words of his are important as well, in my view.

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.


I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

There are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who "transform themselves" in Apostles of Christ, who promote this doctrine. And it is seductive given that this world's religions who promote it convince people that by virtue of them adopting their particular religious sect or business, it means they are of the Elect.

But this philosophy cannot stand up to what is actually written in the holy scriptures. And Paul's words completely debunk this philosophy in his letters to the Romans already written.

Romans 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, (Choose death) because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means no)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves "servants to obey", his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In other words, "Today" if you hear God's Words, "choose Life", Why? Because God said "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth".

 

[brightfame52]

@Studyman

God already tells us who HE will have mercy on and who HE will not have mercy on by the time we get to Ex. 33.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments

Thats those He sees chosen in Christ, for them Christ loved God and kept His commandments perfectly.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman



Thats those He sees chosen in Christ, for them Christ loved God and kept His commandments perfectly.

As I have said before, this world's religious philosophies are seductive, and they are great marketing strategies for religious businesses to use as they compete one against the other for contributing members, without which their religious business or sect could not exist.

But for me, I am only interested in what is actually written in the Inspired Word of God. And there is no place in the bible where it is written that Jesus "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey God, so that we don't have to.

 

[brightfame52]

As I have said before, this world's religious philosophies are seductive, and they are great marketing strategies for religious businesses to use as they compete one against the other for contributing members, without which their religious business or sect could not exist.

But for me, I am only interested in what is actually written in the Inspired Word of God. And there is no place in the bible where it is written that Jesus "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey God, so that we don't have to.

See Christ is our righteousness! Yes Christ led a life of obedience friend, obedience to God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.The word obedience here means hypakoē

1. obedience, compliance, submission

This obedience wasnt for Himself as a private person, but as the Surety of His People, Gods elect. This obedience has been charged to their account, just like Adams disobedience was.

Can you live a life more obedient to God than Christ ?He feared God as well Heb 5 7


Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[Studyman]

See Christ is our righteousness! Yes Christ led a life of obedience friend, obedience to God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.The word obedience here means hypakoē

1. obedience, compliance, submission

Only those who repent, turn to God, and bring forth works worthy of repentance are "made righteous", and this by Him advocating between men and God for the remission of the sins of the repentant. As the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This obedience wasnt for Himself as a private person,

According to Him His obedience was to Glorify His Father.

but as the Surety of His People, Gods elect. This obedience has been charged to their account, just like Adams disobedience was.

Again, you cannot find one place where Jesus obeyed His Father so that you can live in the doctrines and religious traditions of man.

Can you live a life more obedient to God than Christ ?He feared God as well Heb 5 7

It isn't a competition. Jesus commanded men to be perfect, even as HIS Father in heaven is perfect. He didn't obey God so men can live after the imagination of their own mind, although that is the popular religious philosophy taught by this world's religions.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Yes, as HE said "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth "his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Again, HE didn't "Walk" so that men are free to live after the imagination of their own mind. But Jesus saw this seductive religious philosophy coming and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

@Studyman

Only those who repent, turn to God,

Because Christ who has saved them gives them repentance and its specifically to the elect Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

@Studyman

Yes, as HE said "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth "his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Again, HE didn't "Walk" so that men are free to live after the imagination of their own mind. But Jesus saw this seductive religious philosophy coming and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

I c you reject the suretyship obedience/righteousness which is gifted to Gods elect through Christ in favor of your own, but God sees all for whom Christs righteousness has been imputed as walking even as He walked !

 

[Red Baker]

God already tells us who HE will have mercy on and who HE will not have mercy on by the time we get to Ex. 33.

This is not correct. God's mercy shown in a regenerating sense for the most part is hidden from, we can at best be persuaded, but do not know 100%. No one would have ever thought Lot was a righteous man, unless the Holy Ghost through Peter had told us!

2 Timothy 1:5​

“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.”

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This is not speaking of mercy in a regenerating sense, as you want us to believe~God does not withhold mercy until man keeps his word, if so, then no one would ever experience the mercy of God, but his mercy is the reason why we even have a desire to do so! A big difference.

We agree that God's mercy comes to all those men and women who seek to please God by heeding his word, and his mercy follow unto the next generation if we obey and teach our children as he has commanded us! But, this does not supersede God's mercy first freely given to certain men and women without them even seeking hi, until he first sought them!

Isaiah 65:1​

“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.” Praise the Lord!

Since HE has already seen the beginning and end of every man's life from the creation of the world, HE knows who will listen to and "Yield themselves to obey Him" (Rom. 6:16) and who will not.

Yes God knows the end from the beginning, all would agree. But his mercy toward man is based solely upon the will of God and his good pleasure.

What God did see was that if he did not have an election of grace, then none would love and serve him. Election is not based upon God for seeing the goodness of man in believing and repenting and loving him.

Psalms 14:1-4~"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."

Thereby:

Isaiah 1:9​

“Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.”

Those who "Choose Life" are the elect, destined to receive God's Mercy as HE promised, and God cannot lie.

So wrong! God purpose to send His Son into the world to secure eternal life for his elect whom he had sovereignly chosen according to the riches of his grace/mercy. No one is elected to eternal life because they of themselves chose life, that's another gospel. Eternal life was sewured by Christ's faith and obedience, not ours.

Again, God has clearly shown who receives mercy and who doesn't

The scriptures will reveal whom God has chosen to eternal by fruits of the Spirit in their lives~which godly fruits are the products of the New man that is created within each and every child of God's promises by His power according to the mercy promised to them through Christ, on his behalf.

We didn't do anything to make any of these things happen. God has told us who will receive His Mercy. Men either believe in Him, and "Choose Life". Or they do as Eve, and listen to the "other voices" in the garden God placed us in. Simple enough for a child to understand.

Wrong again~ No one receive mercy because they believe in God, we believe in God because God has purpose to show us mercy! A big difference.

Acts 13:48​

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

God has told us over and over and over why so many Jews were lost. They didn't believe in Him, AKA, "have faith" as it is written;

Wrong again:

John 10:26​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”

God doesn't just pick winners and losers based on some invisible Holy Lottery.

Are mocking God's election of grace? Your true colors are slowly coming out.

Ephesians 1:4-7~"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Nowhere does it say we have these spiritual blessing based upon our works, faith, etc. But, all according to the good pleasure of his hotly will which he purposed within himself!

The Jesus "of the Bible" said we are to Live By Every word of God, so these words of his are important as well, in my view.

Amen, may you should practice what you preach.

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

This is not correct. God's mercy shown in a regenerating sense for the most part is hidden from, we can at best be persuaded, but do not know 100%. No one would have ever thought Lot was a righteous man, unless the Holy Ghost through Peter had told us!

Absolutely correct, Gods Mercy has a applicatory effect in regenerating into life Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

So when God says He will have mercy on all the elect unbelievers, He means He will regenerate them and give them faith to convert to believers Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[elect] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Johann]

This is not correct. God's mercy shown in a regenerating sense for the most part is hidden from, we can at best be persuaded, but do not know 100%. No one would have ever thought Lot was a righteous man, unless the Holy Ghost through Peter had told us!

Personally I think we are prying into the Boule and Thelema of YHVH as if WE know everything-no offense.

Ecclesiastes 8:17:

"Then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."



God's mercy, as expressed in Exodus 33:19, highlights His sovereign will: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This indicates that God’s mercy is according to His own divine choice. However, the full extent of God's regenerating mercy is often hidden from human understanding. While we can be persuaded of God's work in individuals' lives, we do not possess infallible knowledge of the state of another person's heart-nor of God

For example, in the New Testament, we learn through divine revelation that Lot was a righteous man (2 Peter 2:7-8), something that might not have been apparent from the Old Testament narrative alone. This illustrates that our perception of who receives God's mercy can be limited and that ultimate discernment belongs to God alone.

God's mercy, as expressed in Exodus 33:19, highlights His sovereign will: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This indicates that God’s mercy is according to His own divine choice. However, the full extent of God's regenerating mercy is often hidden from human understanding. While we can be persuaded of God's work in individuals' lives, we do not possess infallible knowledge of the state of another person's heart.

For example, in the New Testament, we learn through divine revelation that Lot was a righteous man: "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" (2 Peter 2:7), something that might not have been apparent from the Old Testament narrative alone. This illustrates that our perception of who receives God's mercy can be limited and that ultimate discernment belongs to God alone.

Romans 9:15-16 also reinforces this idea: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Romans 11:33-34:

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"
Isaiah 55:8-9:

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"
Deuteronomy 29:29:

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law."
Job 11:7-9:

"Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea."
Job 37:5:

"God’s voice thunders in marvelous ways; he does great things beyond our understanding."
Psalm 92:5:

"How great are your works, Lord, how profound your thoughts!"
Ecclesiastes 8:17:

"Then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."
Isaiah 40:28:

"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

These scriptures collectively underscore the depth and unsearchable nature of God's wisdom, judgments, and plans, affirming that human understanding is limited compared to His infinite knowledge and purposes.

 

[Johann]

This is not speaking of mercy in a regenerating sense, as you want us to believe~God does not withhold mercy until man keeps his word, if so, then no one would ever experience the mercy of God, but his mercy is the reason why we even have a desire to do so! A big difference.

Exodus 20:6 says, "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

This verse is not speaking of mercy in a regenerating sense, as though God's mercy is conditional upon human obedience. Rather, it highlights the covenantal relationship where love and obedience to God are responses to His mercy and grace. God’s mercy is the foundation for any desire to love and obey Him.

As Ephesians 2:4-5 states, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

This underscores that God's mercy and grace precede and enable our love and obedience. Therefore, God's mercy is the reason why we even have the desire and capacity to keep His commandments, which aligns with Philippians 2:13: "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

 

[Johann]

@Red Baker



Absolutely correct, Gods Mercy has a applicatory effect in regenerating into life Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

So when God says He will have mercy on all the elect unbelievers, He means He will regenerate them and give them faith to convert to believers Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[elect] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

To understand this verse accurately, it’s important to look at the broader context of Romans 11. Here, the Apostle Paul is discussing God's plan for both Jews and Gentiles.

Recipients:

Jews and Gentiles: In the broader context, Paul is explaining how both Jews and Gentiles have been disobedient so that God might show mercy to both groups. The "all" in this verse refers to both Jews and Gentiles who have been disobedient (Romans 11:30-31).

Humanity in General: More broadly, Paul might be referring to all of humanity, emphasizing that all people have been consigned to disobedience so that God's mercy can be shown to all. This does not imply universal salvation but indicates the universal offer of mercy through the gospel.

Contextual Explanation:
Romans 11:30-31: "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

Explanation: Paul is explaining how Gentiles, who were once disobedient, have now received mercy because of the Jews' disobedience. Similarly, Jews who are currently disobedient will also receive mercy.
Romans 11:32: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Explanation: Paul concludes that God has allowed both Jews and Gentiles to be in a state of disobedience so that He might show mercy to both groups. This emphasizes God's overarching plan of salvation and mercy.
Key Points:
Disobedience of All: Both Jews and Gentiles are included in the "all" who have been disobedient.
Mercy for All: The mercy offered is universal in scope, available to all through faith in Jesus Christ.
God's Sovereign Plan: The verse highlights God's sovereign plan in using the disobedience of humanity to ultimately display His mercy.
Supporting Verses:
Romans 3:9: "What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."
Romans 3:23-24: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
In summary, Romans 11:32 teaches that both Jews and Gentiles have been consigned to disobedience so that God might extend His mercy to all. This is part of God's redemptive plan to offer salvation to everyone through Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

Explanation: Paul is explaining how Gentiles, who were once disobedient, have now received mercy because of the Jews' disobedience. Similarly, Jews who are currently disobedient will also receive mercy.
Romans 11:32: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Correct, Paul himself as a elect jew experienced this Mercy while in unbelief 1 Tim 1:13-16

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Elect unbelievers have this hope, they some day by the Sovereign Mercy and Grace of God they also shall be converted into believers.

 

[Johann]

According to Him His obedience was to Glorify His Father.

Jesus' obedience was indeed directed towards His Father, as He Himself declared multiple times in the Gospels. Here's a breakdown of this concept with scriptural support:

Obedience to the Father:

Jesus consistently emphasized that His obedience was to fulfill the will of His Father.
John 5:30: "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."
John 6:38: "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."
Glorifying the Father:

Jesus' obedience was intrinsically linked to glorifying His Father, demonstrating His submission to God's will.
John 17:4: "I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
John 17:1: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."
Example of Submission:

Jesus' obedience serves as an example of submission to God's authority for believers to follow.
Philippians 2:8: "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"
Redemptive Purpose:

Jesus' obedience, culminating in His sacrificial death, had a redemptive purpose for humanity.
Hebrews 5:8-9: "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."
In summary, Jesus' obedience was not for Himself as a private person but was directed towards glorifying His Father and fulfilling the divine will. His obedience served as a model for believers and had a profound redemptive purpose in the plan of salvation.

Again, you cannot find one place where Jesus obeyed His Father

This is not 100% correct.

Baptism by John the Baptist:

Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist was an act of obedience to fulfill all righteousness, as part of God's plan for His earthly ministry (Matthew 3:13-17).
Submission to God's Will in Gethsemane:

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will" (Matthew 26:39). This demonstrates Jesus' submission to the Father's will, even in the face of imminent suffering and death.
Teaching and Doing the Father's Will:

Jesus consistently taught and emphasized that His mission was to do the will of the Father. For example, in John 6:38, Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."
Miracles and Healing:

Jesus performed miracles and healings as demonstrations of God's power and in accordance with the Father's will (John 5:19, John 10:37-38).
Sacrificial Death on the Cross:

The ultimate act of obedience was Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross. He willingly laid down His life in obedience to the Father's plan for the redemption of humanity (Philippians 2:8).

These examples illustrate Jesus' consistent obedience to the Father throughout His earthly ministry. His obedience was not only demonstrated in specific actions but also in His overall submission to the Father's will in fulfilling the redemptive plan for humanity.
Root Verb: υπακούω (hypakouó)
Meaning: The root verb υπακούω (hypakouó) denotes "to listen to, to heed, to obey." It implies more than just passive hearing; it carries the idea of actively heeding or obeying what is heard.

Usage: This verb appears throughout the New Testament, often in contexts of obeying God's commands, instructions, or teachings. It's also used in relationships of authority, such as obeying parents (Ephesians 6:1) or earthly masters (Ephesians 6:5).

Examples:

Matthew 7:24: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
Acts 5:29: "Peter and the other apostles replied: 'We must obey God rather than human beings!'"
2. Noun: υπακοή (hypakoé)
Meaning: The noun υπακοή (hypakoé) is derived from the verb υπακούω (hypakouó). It refers to "obedience, compliance, submission."

Usage: υπακοή (hypakoé) is used to denote the act of obeying or submitting to authority, whether divine or human. In the New Testament, it often signifies obedience to God's will or commands.

Examples:

Romans 1:5: "Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake."
2 Corinthians 10:5: "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
3. Theological Implications:
Divine Obedience: In theological terms, hypakoé emphasizes the act of obedience to God's will and commands as an essential aspect of the believer's relationship with God. It underscores the submission of one's will to God's authority and guidance.

Faith and Obedience: The New Testament often links obedience with faith, highlighting that true faith results in obedience to God's Word (Romans 1:5). Obedience is seen as the outward expression of genuine faith and relationship with God.

Christological Significance: The obedience of Christ (Philippians 2:8) serves as a central theme in Christian theology, underscoring His submission to the Father's will, even unto death on the cross, and providing an example for believers to follow in their obedience to God.

In summary, υπακοή (hypakoé) and its root verb υπακούω (hypakouó) convey the concepts of active listening, heeding, and obeying. These words carry significant theological implications regarding obedience to God's will, faith, and the example of Christ's obedience.

 

[TomL]

Mr. Psittacine~you need to learn more words, you just repeat the same thing over and over again, even when all have been addressed.

Then show me where you addressed it

i do not believe you have

Your understanding fails the Litmus for truth.

That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by...

2nd Thessalonians 2:13—”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” Note that “sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”?

We answer, THE NEW BIRTH. In Scripture “sanctification” ALWAYS means “separation,” separation from something and unto something or someone.” [A.W. Pink]

First there is a “NEW CREATION” (2nd Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10), and then the “NEW CREATURE” is stirred into exercise. Faith and all other graces are wrought in us by the Spirit through the instrumentality of Word, but not so with the principle of life and grace from which these graces proceed.

Sorry the verse does not say sanctification of the spirit makes possible belief of the truth

2nd Thessalonians 2:13—”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Acts 26:18 (UASV) — 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

The ministry of the spirit to the unbeliever is mentioned here

John 16:7–11 (KJV 1900) — 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

There is no sanctification of the Spirit for the unbeliever

In His work of “quickening,” by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from WITHIN, and not by applying something from WITHOUT. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY INSTRUMENT: the WORD IS USED BY HIM AFTERWARDS to call into exercise the life then communicated.

Regeneration is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit. It is the action of Spirit upon spirit, of a Divine Person upon a human person, whereby spiritual life is imparted. Nothing, therefore, of the nature of means or instruments can come between the Holy Spirit and the soul that is made alive. God did not employ an instrument or means when He infused physical life into the body of Adam. There were only two factors: the dust of the ground and the creative power of God which vivified that dust. The Divine omnipotence and dead matter were brought into direct contact, with nothing interposing. The dust was not a means or instrument by which God originated life. So in regeneration there are only two factors: the human soul destitute of spiritual life, and the Holy Spirit who quickens it.

The word and truth of God, the most important of all the means of grace, is not a means of regeneration, as distinct from conviction, conversion and sanctification. This is evident when we remember that it is the office of a means or instrument, to excite or stimulate an already existing principle of life. Physical food is a means of physical growth, but it SUPPOSES physical vitality, if the body is dead, bread cannot be a means or instrument. Intellectual truth is a means of intellectual growth, but it supposes intellectual vitality. If the mind be idiotic, secular knowledge cannot be a means or instrument. Spiritual truth is a means of spiritual growth, in case there be spiritual vitality. But if the mind be dead to righteousness, spiritual truth cannot be a means or instrument.

“The unenlightened understanding is unable to apprehend, and the unregenerate will is unable to believe. Vital force is lacking in these two principal factors. What is needed at this point is life and force itself. Consequently, the Author of spiritual life Himself must operate directly, without the use of means or instruments; and OUTRIGHT give spiritual life and power from the dead: that is, ex nihilo. The new life is not imparted because man perceives the truth, but he perceives the truth because the new life is imparted. A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated.” (W. T. Shedd, Presbyterian, 1889)

“Fallen man is not regenerated by any instinct, choice, or exertion of his own; he does not by any personal endeavor contribute anything towards being born again; nor does he cooperate in the least degree with the efficient cause: instead, every inclination of his heart, every exercise of his will, is in direct opposition thereto.

The new birth is not brought about by the power and influence of others. No sinner is ever born again as the result of the persuasions and endeavors of preachers or Christian workers. However pious and wise they are, and however earnestly and strenuously they exert themselves to bring others to holiness, they do in no degree produce the effect. “If all the angels and saints in Heaven and all the godly on earth should join their wills and endeavors and unitedly exert all their powers to regenerate one sinner, they could not effect it; yea, they could do nothing toward it. It is an effect INFINITELY beyond the reach of finite wisdom and power!” [S. Hopkins].

“In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act, but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart—such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God. This great change is wrought in spite of all the opposition of the natural heart against God: “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy” (Rom. 9:16). This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.” [A.W. Pink]

Now here’s the kicker – the ‘Gospel’ itself actually saves no one but brings to light the life and immortality which the regenerated soul has been made a partaker of. A spiritually dead soul CANNOT hear the gospel and be saved! But the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates the dead soul without any external means! And THEN the gospel is brought to this soul which has been made alive to reveal what has happened to it.

Read these two verses very prayerfully and meditate on them –

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!” [2ndTim 1:9,10]

Notice the "order" Tom, “Who hath saved us, and called us . . .” God first sovereignly saves us by the operation of the Holy Spirit and THEN calls us through the Gospel! In other words God does not call and save but He saves and then calls! Sovereign regeneration FIRST and then conversion through the Gospel!

And notice again WHAT the role of the gospel is in salvation – “it BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality” through the gospel! When Scripture says – “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” [1Pet 1:23] The sense is the word of God gives witness/testimony concerning how one is born again!