Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It goes without saying that election is unconditional. If it is conditional upon something we do, then it is not grace.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
It only stops being grace if the condition in any way causes, or helps to cause the effect. But if the condition does not cause the effect, then the gift is still grace. The Israelite marching around the city of Jericho in no way caused the walls to fall. Naaman dipping in Jordan in no way caused his cleansing. The widow's gathering jars in no way caused oil to continue to flow from her jar. The other widow's baking her last flour into bread for the prophet in no way caused the flour and oil to continually replenish until the famine was over. Obedience to Christ in repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism in no way causes salvation, and so these conditions do not negate salvation from being a gift to those who obey.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
If the Israelites were disobedient and didn't march around the city of Jericho, the wall wouldn't have fallen.
Scripture refutes that idea
Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Exactly my point. Their marching didn't cause the walls to fall, but they fell by God's power, a gift to the people, because they had obeyed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yep, Pretty cut and dry Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Works is another word for conditions.
brightfame52
Well-known member
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
you still contradict yourself
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
Nowhere do we read men were in christ before the foundation of the earth
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-86885
brightfame52
Well-known member
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
Now, what is that suppose to mean? Of course Paul had the absolute truth on the subject, especially so, writing under the inspiration of God.
Rockson, that may be true, but I have searched the writings of almost every writer from Augustine forward, that is available to read, on this one subject, and Richardson is at the very top as far as I can tell ~ now Richardson covers a lump of many Particular Baptist that learned from him or through him. I also have read others who were not Baptist, to see where they are coming from and why they believe what they taught.
Of course, I was speaking as far as uninspired teachers/preachers go. Like Apollos...........
Acts 18:24,25~"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John."
you still contradict yourself
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
Nowhere do we read men were in christ before the foundation of the earth
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-86885
brightfame52
Well-known member
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
nothing has changed
you still contradict yourself
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30
Thats why its an unconditional election of grace The elect were in Him by election before the foundation of the world
Nowhere do we read men were in christ before the foundation of the earth
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-86885
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
No, it was in payment for them having obeyed. "If you do this, I will do that."
Greetings Doug,
While I can appreciate your use of God's word, and I do, in all sincerity, I reject your conclusions, based on your own reasoning.
What I highlighted above I desire for you to consider with me your statement. I'll be short.
Doug, the gospel of Jesus Christ declares God can be just while justifying sinners without any works of the law, or a law (a commandment) whereby man has an active part in. The gospel of God wherein the righteousness of God is revealed, or how man becomes righteous, is 100% secured by one man, Jesus Christ's perfect faith and obedience for all whom he was a surety for. And he was not for all, for if that was so, then all would have their sins forgiven~the law of double jeopardy demands this.
The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. God is more righteous than any law man could ever come up with~God does not punish twice for the same crime.... if sins have been paid for in full..........Christ did just that for all whom he was a surety for!
We will add this~if Jesus Christ was a surety for certain people, and he was indeed, then God must impart eternal life to that person sometime between their conception and death of their body~which he does~perfect example would be John the Baptist, and the thief on the cross. Neither of which were baptized in water before they had experience the new birth, which proves that salvation from sin and condemnation is 100% pure grace without any mixture of works on the sinner's part............him having an active part in. At least it should prove this bible truth, if folks would not close their eyes to the truth for their own agenda.
Doug, the condition is man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. The word of God clearly states that man is dead in trespasses and sin, and the Spirit of God by his power alone raises the sinner from death unto life in Jesus Christ, for Jesus' sake alone based upon him securing that life for them by his faith and obedience.
Doug even more than this, in the mind and will of God this legally took place when Christ died and rose again and we IN HIM did likewise.
Ephesians 2:4-6~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"We have never been view outside of Christ, legally speaking, practically, of course, but not legally~and never will be.
