civic
Well-known member
now you are quoting MacAurthur lol. I was exactly like him in every single belief of his for 40 years. Please don't try and tell me what Mac believes. I own every book and commentary he wrote while I was a calvinist.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Sorry-from Gill-prove the Scriptures wrong and don't bring Calvinism into the plain reading of the text.
civic
Well-known member
I'm not engaging secondary sources. You are appealing to authority fallacy as an argument.
Absolutely! Nothing in the world wrong with that!
civic
Well-known member
sure there is which is what its called a fallacy to begin with.
brightfame52
Well-known member
he was a devil, chosen for perdition Jn 6:70
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jn 17 12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Deal with the Scriptures-sure there is which is what its called a fallacy to begin with.
- Psalm 41:9:
- "Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me."
- This verse is often seen as a prophecy about Judas’s betrayal, particularly because Jesus Himself quotes it in John 13:18 when predicting Judas's actions.
- Psalm 55:12-14:
- "For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God's house we walked in the throng."
- This passage is interpreted as expressing the deep betrayal felt by David, which is seen as a foreshadowing of Jesus’s betrayal by Judas, a close associate.
- Zechariah 11:12-13:
- "Then I said to them, 'If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.' And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the Lord said to me, 'Throw it to the potter'—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter."
- This passage is seen as a prophecy of Judas’s betrayal price. In the New Testament, Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10 explicitly connect the thirty pieces of silver to Judas’s betrayal of Jesus.
- Psalm 69:25:
- "May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents."
- This verse is referenced in Acts 1:20 regarding Judas’s fate and the desolation of his place.
- "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.' He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him."
This passage indicates that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray Him, suggesting Judas was not a true follower.
John 12:4-6:
"But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 'Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?' He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it."
Here, Judas’s motivations are revealed to be dishonest and self-serving, indicating he was not a genuine disciple.
John 17:12:
"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."
Jesus refers to Judas as the "son of destruction," indicating his role was part of the divine plan but also setting him apart from the true followers.
Matthew 26:14-16:
"Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, 'What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?' And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him."
This act of betrayal for money highlights Judas's lack of genuine commitment to Jesus.
Acts 1:16-20:
"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 'For it is written in the Book of Psalms, "May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it"; and "Let another take his office."'"
This passage reflects on Judas's betrayal and its consequences, further illustrating that he was not a true disciple.
- "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.' He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him."
civic
Well-known member
What is the source of this cut and paste article ?
Deal with the Scriptures-was Judas saved?
civic
Well-known member
Who is the source of your quote ? The rules say one must proved the original source.
@Administrator
@Predestined
@Mod1
@Mod2
I have no problem you calling the Mods and Admins-was Judas saved?
civic
Well-known member
after you quote your online source I will answer your question.
There is no source-pure Scripture references-was Judas saved?
civic
Well-known member
wrong that is a format From a primary source.
So you are not going to answer the question?
civic
Well-known member
not until you say where the copy/paste came from.
John Gill, in his extensive Bible commentary, provides several insights on Judas Iscariot and his role in the betrayal of Jesus. According to Gill, Judas was chosen by Jesus not by accident or ignorance, but to fulfill Scripture. Gill emphasizes that Judas' betrayal was necessary for the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's death, which would ultimately bring about the redemption of the world (Christianity) (Grace to You).
Gill refers to specific prophecies, such as Psalm 41:9, which speaks of a close friend betraying the Messiah. This verse is historically linked to David and his betrayal by Ahithophel, but prophetically it points to Jesus and Judas. Similarly, Psalm 55:12-14 describes betrayal by a close companion, reflecting Judas' actions. Additionally, Zechariah 11:12-13 predicts the exact price—thirty pieces of silver—for which Judas would betray Jesus, and this prophecy is fulfilled in the New Testament when Judas returns the money to the temple authorities (Grace to You).
Gill also explores the deeper motivations behind Judas' actions. While greed played a role, as indicated by Judas' negotiation for money in exchange for Jesus' capture, there was also a supernatural element. Both Luke and John suggest that Satan entered Judas, influencing him to betray Jesus at the opportune moment. This dual explanation—greed and satanic influence—provides a comprehensive understanding of Judas' betrayal from Gill's perspective (OverviewBible).
Overall, John Gill's commentary highlights that Judas' actions, while driven by personal motives and satanic influence, were ultimately part of a divine plan to fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah's suffering and death (Christianity) (Grace to You).
Old Testament References:
Psalm 41:9
"Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me."
Psalm 55:12-14
"For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God's house we walked in the throng."
Zechariah 11:12-13
"Then I said to them, 'If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.' And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the Lord said to me, 'Throw it to the potter'—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter."
New Testament References:
John 6:70-71
"Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.' He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him."
John 12:4-6
"But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 'Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?' He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it."
John 17:12
"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."
Matthew 26:14-16
"Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, 'What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?' And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him."
Acts 1:16-20
"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry. (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 'For it is written in the Book of Psalms, "May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it"; and "Let another take his office."'"
Was Judas saved?
civic~ Please consider this one point using the very scripture you quoted.
Matthew 10:1~"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."
Now, consider these scriptures:
Matthew 17:14-15~"And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
civic~you are assuming the traitor had power to cast out devils, when even the best of God apostles did not have this power all of the time, and truly we do not know just how effective they were since we were not there. There has always been tares among the wheat, and truly it is impossible to be right every time trying to determine who's wheat, who are tares sowed by the devil~many times we know them by their fruits, but not perfectly always.
This is a true statement as speaking about them as a whole, but not necessarily true speaking about each one individually. There are some examples of this in the scriptures if you want proof~you probably know some of them as well.
That was not very nice. you seem to be better than that~besides, who cares if it is copied and paste, truth is truth, and every child of God desires truth. Food is food, babies do not care who feeds them, just as long as they are given food to sustain them.
John Gill is a very worthy writer, yes he has error, but much more truth, but so do all of God's children, no one is perfect in doctrine.
We are here to learn, and to help our brethren, and only God knows who they are.
civic
Well-known member
I was a huge fan of gill as a former Calvinist , the same with Sproul, Piper and MacArthur .
