Doctrine of Unconditional Election

When you put your trust in Jesus, you are saved, but you don't bear fruit at that exact moment.
You're not answering my question. Again, if it's through faith that you are saved then how can faith be "after you are saved"? Instead, you're diverting to another topic: bearing fruits. How is that connected to my question?
Your faith isn't dead. It's new.
Who said that a saving faith is a dead faith?
If you become a believing one, your faith produce works as you walk in the Spirit. If your seed falls on bad soil, then you may "believe" at first, but you are not a "believing one", you don't get saved and you produce no good fruit.
That just proves that you can lose your salvation. How does losing your salvation answer my question?
 
Sorry but no one is in Christ before believing

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

1cor 1:30 says nothing about being in Christ before the foundation of the earth

You add to and twist scripture for man made beliefs
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Thats why its an unconditional election of grace Duh
 
First of all, no one ever ask me to address James two; secondly, no scare tactics are being used, just a true warning to those who are laughing now, that God will wipe that smile off of their faces very soon and replace it with fear and trembling. Now James two.
If we're not here to discuss the Bible then what are we here for? To discuss psychological scare tactics?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?​

Here James will condemn carnal Christianity ~ a professor who does not posses good works~a much needed warning for our day. While Paul opposed Jewish legalism much of the time, James blasted those trusting sola fide! Professing Christianity has it extremes, both must be dealt with.

James, an apostle of Jesus Christ, has no use for those professing faith but living fruitless lives. As the followers of Jesus, we should as dogmatically deny the salvation of those without works supporting their profession.

What doth it profit~The question is rhetorical, which you can easily answer – Such faith has no profit! It cannot save!

How does faith save? It only saves by laying hold of eternal life for evidence of coming salvation.

Election is not based on faith, for God chose us in Christ without faith (Psalms 14:1-3; Ephesians 1:3-12). Justification needs no faith, for God justified freely by Christ's faith and obedience! (Romans 5:15-19; 8:28-34; Titus 3:4-7).
When it comes to one's salvation, salvific election definitely does require belief as 2 Th 2:13, Eph 1:4, and the entire Bible proves.
Regeneration is not based on faith, for the new life must come first (John 1:13; 3:3,6,8; 5:24).
You skipped over John 1:12 which talks about belief preceeding regeneration which is mentioned in verse 13.
Conversion definitely requires faith, for it is our belief of the gospel of God’s gracious salvation. Glorification can only be known and trusted to the degree that a child of God brings forth works.

We believe on Christ, not to be justified or regenerated, but to lay hold of coming salvation. James did not write a theoretical lesson for their evangelistic program, but for their own conduct!

Actual, legal, literal, or vital salvation is not pursued here, or you end up being saved by works! The point pursued is the evidence of eternal life resulting in future salvation – faith plus works.
  1. Faith provides evidence of eternal life only when it bears good works (II Pet 1:5-11; I Thess 1:2-4).

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,​

Here is a simple rhetorical question illustrating the vanity and worthlessness of faith without works. The hypothetical case is to shame carnal believers for thinking professions of faith carry any weight.

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?​

Mere words do absolutely nothing to provide peace, clothing, or food for those naked and starving. This is the same as someone saying they believe and love Jesus, but never do anything to obey Him. If choices and actions are not made producing good works, then faith or claims of faith are nothing. The illustration is not teaching charitable performance, for that is taught elsewhere (I John 3:17-19).

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​

In precisely the same way – even so – as the illustration, faith without works is vain and worthless. Belief or profession of a thing without actions confirming and proving it is alone – naked and vain. It is dead, for true faith is a living expression of trust in God by actively seeking Him (Heb 11:6).

Jame 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.​

There are two options about works for men with faith – you can confirm your faith, or you cannot. Which would you rather have? Faith that you cannot prove, or works that prove faith a reality? Give us the works, Lord, for even if we have weak faith, but strong works, we know we are thine! Evangelical religion today guarantees salvation for a trite formula that often does not even have to admit that Jesus is Lord (Lordship controversy), but James here takes the whole mess and flushes it!

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​


The man with faith and a carnal life professes to any who listen, “I believe there is one God … and this faith in the monotheistic religion of Israel (and maybe even His Son) proves I have eternal life.” The words of James here – thou does well – are not sarcastic irony, due to the following context. Faith in the one God of Israel, which is the fact considered here, is good (Deut 6:4; I Cor 8:4-6). James commended the man with this faith as far as it goes, for it is a blessing to believe this fact. He then declared that devils also believe, which reduced any vain confidence in such a faith. And he added that the devils tremble in fear, which proves its certainty, but denies their sincerity. In the next verse, the disjunctive but indicates that James is criticizing the faith he praised. If he had just annihilated his faith by sarcastic irony, he would not have contrasted v.20 by but. The devils believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son, as their confessions while He was on earth proved. The devils would fall and worship Jesus Christ – they knew Him well (Mark 1:23-25; 5:6-12). The devils knew Jesus and His servant Paul, but they did not know gypsies (Acts 19:13-17). The trembling of the devils is their devilish fear of their coming torment from the Son of God.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

Though I have commended you for faith in one God as doing well, there is still a need for works. Though the devils believe there is one God and tremble concerning it, there is still a need for works. In contrast to whatever you may think about your faith, without works it is nothing but a dead thing. Presuming on a decision or faith in Jesus is a vanity, for He will condemn many such (Matt 7:21-23).

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?​

This is very different historical reasoning than that of Paul, who traced Abraham’s justification to his faith in Genesis 15:1-6, and referred to that event often (Rom 4:3,9,22; Gal 3:6). Paul did not oppose easy believism, but rather many Jewish legalists in love with Moses’ law. Therefore, he referred to that event in Abraham’s life where God declared him righteous by faith. Paul argued from faith to silence Jews who trusted (a) works of the law, (b) circumcision, (c) Moses religion, or even (d) Abraham’s genes … but Abraham the father of Israel was justified while uncircumcised, 430 years before the law, and then by faith without any respect of persons! God declared Abraham truly did fear Him after he went the distance to sacrifice his son (Gen 22:12).

What justification is considered here? Our legal position before God, or our knowledge of it? Our legal position before God, or His declaration of it? Our legal position, or our assurance of it?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

These rhetorical questions indicate that this concept of justification by works should be easy to see. Faith leads to works to please God, for faith believes God rewards diligent seekers (Hebrews 11:6). The faith of Abraham in Genesis 15:6 was made complete and true by his works in Genesis 22:12. Faith is dead and devilish without works; but it is complete or perfect by works, as with Abraham.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

Abraham’s trust in God’s promise secured a preliminary declaration of his righteousness (Gen 15:6). God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness was confirmed by his actions on Moriah (Gen 22:12). Abraham was called the friend of God as a result of his faithful actions (II Chron 20:7; Isaiah 41:8).

Please remember Abraham was a just and righteous man, living by faith, long before he got to Genesis 15:6. It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

What can we see from Abram’s history? The real evidence proving righteousness requires works. What we see is that Genesis 15:6 is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without Gen 22:12! Those who cry, “Sola Fide,” and think that Genesis 15:6 is the end of justification are wrong. Abraham’s subjective justification by faith was made complete or perfect by his further works. Justification is being declared righteous by God: Abraham was declared so by faith and works. It is vain confidence to trust in some belief, decision, or profession of Jesus without good works. Abram’s actual justification, or acceptance and acquittal with God, was without faith by Christ! James did not teach justification by the works that Paul condemned, or the Bible lies (II Peter 1:20). Paul rejected Jewish legalists and their trust in Moses’ law by teaching the historical fact of God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness by virtue of his great act of faith (Gen 15:6). James taught that any man’s faith without works was not nearly enough evidence or proof to claim righteousness, justification, or the hope of future glorification.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?​

Not content with his glorious explanation of Abraham’s case, James used Rahab as another example, which he by the Spirit considered to be an exact match to Abraham with Isaac (Gen 22:12). For those ignorant of Rahab, she was a mother of Jesus and in the hall of faith (Mat 1:5; Heb 11:31)! Bless the great God for exalting such a Gentile woman so highly and forgiving such a great sinner. The actions described here – hiding the spies and lying to her city’s leaders – were done by faith, but they constituted works that proved her faith to be real and true (Joshua 2:8-21). She had come to believe and trust the God of Israel, so she willingly risked her live to serve Him. She received the spies in through her front door, but she sent them out through her window.

What is this justification? The same as Abraham’s – evidence and proof of righteousness by works.

Who wants to ride this horse to heaven? Did God legally accept Rahab based on her noble lying? Rahab definitely believed the God of Israel was the LORD Jehovah, and she acted upon it.

Did this change her status in heaven, in the book of life, in the sight of God … or only display it?

If the justification here is actual legal justification, then salvation is by works, which it is not. We understand this verse to declare Rahab’s justified character and status by works, just as the Bible declares the same thing for Phinehas by his zeal in using his javelin (Ps 106:30-31).

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

A body without the spirit is very dead indeed … it is clearly nothing more than shaped, damp clay. The animating, vital component of a living person is missing – the spirit bringing the clay to life. The body without the spirit is an empty house or tabernacle, for the substantial soul life is gone.

As dramatic as a dead body is, so is faith or a profession of belief without any supporting works. James here condemned those in his audience who were confident of eternal life by their faith only~without godly works proving their faith. .

Conclusion:​

The law of liberty, which will judge man shortly, condemns religious partiality and requires neighborly love. So much for easy believism! The great God declared with harsh severity that decisions for Jesus are nothing, without godly works in the life of those who profess to believe.
With the importance of good works accompanying faith, do you agree that the monergistic faith that calvinism promotes (i.e. no human contributing factor involved) is a dead faith? That's because without human good works to accompany faith that faith is a dead faith (James 2:20).
 
This looks AI generated.
Correct-anything to help me grow in Christ Jesus personally-and in my walk in Christ. Also, I cannot sit online 24/7 since I have a work in real time and still searching for that one, or two persons I can have fellowship with.
Let me know if you have a problem with this or why don't you PM me?
 
James is talking about faith after you are saved. It has nothing to do with saving faith. He's just pointing out that if your faith doesn't produce works, your faith is dead and you're not saved.
Brother-take some good advice, for every statement you make post the Scriptures and don't allow yourself to become frustrated-be bold and stand up for what you believe is the truth yet allow yourself to be teachable-as long as you are teachable and NEVER react that's a good sign, many here are not, this is a intellectual contest and not where it really matters, in the heart, indwelt by the Ruach.

PM me and I will show you how to grow in Christ and come to a deeper understanding in the Scriptures. Let the "laughing emojis" laugh themselves silly-this is between you and Christ Jesus.
Johann.
 
When it comes to one's salvation, salvific election definitely does require belief as 2 Th 2:13, Eph 1:4, and the entire Bible proves.
You use save/saved/salivation in one broad sense, when the scriptures do not~but, for now, salvation from sin and condemnation does not require any active work on the sinner's part~which has been proven many times over. In regeneration, God alone is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

What part did you have in your natural birth, pray to tell me? As a matter of fact, God never consulted with you or me, about our conception and birth, our sex, our parents, where we would be born, our height, IQ level, looks, and hundreds more things. More than that, he never even ask you if we wanted to be born, he put our life into being based own his own sovereign will and pleasure.

As to your teaching concerning faith being require before one is regenerated is false~John the Baptist was full of the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb~which proves he was regenerated in her womb by the Spirit of God apart from faith!

Consider Isaac~what part did he have in being born by the power of God? Not one thing! Isaac was a perfect type of how each and every child of God is born~by the oath and promises of God. Do you not agree?

Galatians 4:28~"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Isaac did not excise faith in order to be born, he was born by God's oath and promise, period!

You skipped over John 1:12 which talks about belief preceeding regeneration which is mentioned in verse 13.
Never shipped over anything~I gave it as a reference scripture in support of what I was saying.

But I can easily and scripturally speak on this scripture. As a matter of truth, you truly do not want us to do so, but if you do, let me know and I will address John 1:12,13 if you truly desire for me to do so. But I think you are just blowing smoke, which is all you are capable of doing, that I can see.
 
You use save/saved/salivation in one broad sense, when the scriptures do not~but, for now, salvation from sin and condemnation does not require any active work on the sinner's part~which has been proven many times over. In regeneration, God alone is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

What part did you have in your natural birth, pray to tell me? As a matter of fact, God never consulted with you or me, about our conception and birth, our sex, our parents, where we would be born, our height, IQ level, looks, and hundreds more things. More than that, he never even ask you if we wanted to be born, he put our life into being based own his own sovereign will and pleasure.

As to your teaching concerning faith being require before one is regenerated is false~John the Baptist was full of the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb~which proves he was regenerated in her womb by the Spirit of God apart from faith!

Consider Isaac~what part did he have in being born by the power of God? Not one thing! Isaac was a perfect type of how each and every child of God is born~by the oath and promises of God. Do you not agree?

Galatians 4:28~"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Isaac did not excise faith in order to be born, he was born by God's oath and promise, period!


Never shipped over anything~I gave it as a reference scripture in support of what I was saying.

But I can easily and scripturally speak on this scripture. As a matter of truth, you truly do not want us to do so, but if you do, let me know and I will address John 1:12,13 if you truly desire for me to do so. But I think you are just blowing smoke, which is all you are capable of doing, that I can see.
A very mature, biblical response @Red Baker now all you have to do is not allow him to divert or resort to circular reasoning.
You made some points I have to look up myself--

As to your teaching concerning faith being require before one is regenerated is false~John the Baptist was full of the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb~which proves he was regenerated in her womb by the Spirit of God apart from faith!



Consider Isaac~what part did he have in being born by the power of God? Not one thing! Isaac was a perfect type of how each and every child of God is born~by the oath and promises of God. Do you not agree?



Galatians 4:28~"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."



Isaac did not excise faith in order to be born, he was born by God's oath and promise, period!


How about the paradoxical scripture references that seem to say otherwise?
Thanks.
Johann
PS-my apologies for barging in-go right ahead with the brother.
 
God fulfilled that condition before the foundation 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Thats why its an unconditional election of grace Duh
Sorry but no one is in Christ before believing

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

1cor 1:30 says nothing about being in Christ before the foundation of the earth

You add to and twist scripture for man made beliefs
 
Sorry but no one is in Christ before believing
You have it backwards~no one believes unless they are sheep, and one is born a sheep. God does not change goats into a sheep.

John 10:11-16~"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:26-29~"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

I am going to quote some scriptures and they will prove that the elect have ever been view as in Christ legally my God's election of grace:

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Need help with these scriptures? You are welcome to go first and give your understanding of them, and then I will.
 
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You have it backwards~no one believes unless they are sheep, and one is born a sheep. God does not change goats into a sheep.

John 10:11-16~"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:26-29~"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

I am going to quote some scriptures and they will prove that the elect have ever been view as in Chris tlegally my God's election of grace:

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Need help with these scriptures? You are welcome to go first and give your understanding of them, and then I will.
Amen. Praise God.
 
You have it backwards~no one believes unless they are sheep, and one is born a sheep. God does not change goats into a sheep.

John 10:11-16~"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:26-29~"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

I am going to quote some scriptures and they will prove that the elect have ever been view as in Chris tlegally my God's election of grace:

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Need help with these scriptures? You are welcome to go first and give your understanding of them, and then I will.
And Jesus sent out Judas as one of His 🐑 sheep 🐑 in Matthew 10.

Judas the stumbling block for your doctrine of elect, chosen, sheep etc

Matthew 10 he was a sheep among wolves performing miracles just like the rest of the disciples by the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
 
And the disciples could not and did not understand the gospel and they were Gods elect / chosen sheep.

So much for your false doctrines learned from Calvin.

Your whole systematic was just destroyed by the elect sheep who could not understand the gospel while walking with Jesus for 3 years.

hope this helps !!!
 
Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).
He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).
He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).
He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).
He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).
He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).
He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).
He died for MANY (Matthew 20:28).
He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51; John 1:29 and John 3:16).
He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).
He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).
He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).
He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).
He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!
 
You have it backwards~no one believes unless they are sheep, and one is born a sheep. God does not change goats into a sheep.

John 10:11-16~"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:26-29~"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

I am going to quote some scriptures and they will prove that the elect have ever been view as in Christ legally my God's election of grace:

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Need help with these scriptures? You are welcome to go first and give your understanding of them, and then I will.
I will expose your fallacy again.
Please demonstrate Jesus was refereeing to anyone else besides the 12 ( His sheep ) and the pharisees ( not His sheep ).

John 6
Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the signs he had performed by healing the sick. 3 Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4 The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages[a] to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed about three or four miles,[b] they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were frightened. 20 But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.” 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.

22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
 
You have it backwards~no one believes unless they are sheep, and one is born a sheep. God does not change goats into a sheep.

John 10:11-16~"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

John 10:26-29~"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

I am going to quote some scriptures and they will prove that the elect have ever been view as in Christ legally my God's election of grace:

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Need help with these scriptures? You are welcome to go first and give your understanding of them, and then I will.
Sorry but the issue is being in Christ

If you do not believe you are not in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

and if you are not his sheep it is irrelevant whose sheep you are

a lost sheep is still lost unless found and many of the lost sheep, of the house of Israel remained lost

That men are capable of believing is the testimony of scripture


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

how much exegesis do you need to see the apostle believes men might believe the truth based upon the baptists witness

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

how much exegesis do you need to see Christ states had they believed Moses they would believe him


John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis do you need to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will believe based on the apostles testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

scripture is sufficient to bring about faith

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

if preached to men could believe


John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

Miracles have the power to bring abiout faith
 
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