civic
Well-known member
Ali fraizer fight
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
I don't use Luther and how he view James or Revelation to slate him brother but to point out the obvious, we all are not 100% correct in our theologies-very apparent in the Modern West, globally. Especially in this Age of Enlightenment.
Question is-are we bearing fruit? For the whole world to see? Not here-online-but in our own home?
Are we just talking the walk-or walking the talk?
You stay strong into/eis Jesus Christ brother and Shalom to you and family.
Don't vacillate in what YOU believe is the Aleithia/Chochmah as the Ruach HaKodesh WILL illuminate the seemingly paradoxical verses in Scriptures and a life yielded to Him, obeying His Imperatives
Johann.
I see. Calvinism never stands a chance against the Bible. It only flourishes where there is ignorance of grammar and logic.Ali fraizer fight
Faith is a gift given to the elect on the behalf of Jesus Christ~his faith that he secured for them.
Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Are you going to resist Paul's teaching here as you do many others scriptures? The elect's salvation from sin and condemnation is 100% of God..."that of God"..... the Holy Ghost said through Paul. He then explains what he means by saying "that of God"~For, or, because of, it is given in the behalf of Christ to believe on him!
Wishful thinking on your part. James two is very easy to understand, to them that understandeth.
Proverbs 8:9~“They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.”
Need help? Just ask, I would love to do a verse by verse of James 2:14-26.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is the gift also!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is the Gift of God, not of ourselves, its plain as day stated Eph 2:8
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Red Baker
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Faith is the Faith of God's Elect Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
So you can imagine that faith is a gift.
Faith without works is still dead.
One's Calvinist presuppositions are exterminated when one reads and believes James 2.
I challenge you to read it and to comment about it.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Can you explain from scripture what "faith without works is dead" has to do with "faith is a gift"?
You can't even comprehend that faith without works is dead (James 2:20) and you're going to dictate to me what James 2:14-26 says?!?! Give me a break.
Nope gift is singular
salvation is the gift
It is the only thing consistent with verse 9
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
Again, you saying that and proving the same are worlds apart!
You get no break from me~I think for the sake of other brothers, I will do a verse by verse on James, but I know, you will resist the truth just as you do on many other scriptures. But, that's your problem~ you will deal with in the day of judgment. You may laugh now, but in that day, you will mourn and weep.Give me a break.
Luke 6:24-26~"But woe unto you that are rich! ( who think they are! RB) for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."
Johann
Well-known member
Appreciate this--this is going on far too long.
civic
Well-known member
Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
Johann
Well-known member
Context
The Book of Proverbs is part of the wisdom literature in the Old Testament, traditionally attributed to King Solomon. Proverbs aims to impart wisdom, moral discipline, and righteous living. The verses in Proverbs 6:16-19 are part of a larger section that warns against various types of harmful and sinful behavior.
Recipients
The recipients of this wisdom are the readers or listeners of the Proverbs, which include the people of Israel and, by extension, all who seek to live wisely and righteously according to biblical principles. The teachings are meant to guide individuals in their personal and communal lives, warning them of behaviors that are abhorrent to God and destructive to society.
The Seven Detestable Things
Haughty Eyes:
Meaning: Pride and arrogance.
Implication: God detests pride because it elevates oneself above others and above God.
A Lying Tongue:
Meaning: Dishonesty and deceit.
Implication: Lies undermine trust and can cause great harm to relationships and communities.
Hands that Shed Innocent Blood:
Meaning: Murder or causing harm to innocent people.
Implication: The taking of innocent life is a grave injustice and a severe violation of God's commandments.
A Heart that Devises Wicked Schemes:
Meaning: Planning or plotting evil actions.
Implication: God abhors the intentional planning of harm or deceit against others.
Feet that are Quick to Rush into Evil:
Meaning: A readiness to engage in wrongdoing.
Implication: A propensity for evil actions indicates a corrupt character.
A False Witness who Pours Out Lies:
Meaning: Giving false testimony or spreading false information.
Implication: False testimony can lead to unjust outcomes and harm to others.
A Person who Stirs Up Conflict in the Community:
Meaning: Creating discord and division among people.
Implication: Sowing discord destroys the harmony and unity that God desires in communities.
Summary
These verses in Proverbs 6:16-19 highlight behaviors that God finds particularly detestable. They serve as a moral compass, guiding the faithful to avoid these sins and strive for a life that honors God and fosters a just, truthful, and peaceful community. The recipients of this wisdom are urged to reflect on their actions and attitudes, aligning themselves with the righteous path that God desires.
Proverbs 6:16-19 Breakdown
Proverbs 6:16
כִּי-שֵׁשׁ הֵנָּה שֶׁנִּשְׂנָא יְהוָה וְשֶׁבַע תּוֹעֲבוֹת נַפְשׁוֹ׃
כִּי (ki): Conjunction, "for" or "because."
שֵׁשׁ (shesh): Cardinal number, "six."
הֵנָּה (hennah): Pronoun, "these."
שֶׁנִּשְׂנָא (shenissa): Verb, Qal perfect 3rd person singular, "hates."
שָׂנֵא (sané): Root, "to hate."
יְהוָה (YHWH): Proper noun, "the LORD."
וְשֶׁבַע (vesheva): Conjunction "and" + cardinal number "seven."
תּוֹעֲבוֹת (to'avot): Noun, feminine plural, "abominations."
תּוֹעֵבָה (to'evah): Root, "abomination."
נַפְשׁוֹ (nafsho): Noun, singular with pronominal suffix, "his soul."
Translation: "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him."
Proverbs 6:17
עֵינַיִם רָמוֹת לְשׁוֹן שָׁקֶר וְיָדַיִם שֹׁפְכוֹת דָּם נָקִי׃
עֵינַיִם (einaim): Noun, dual, "eyes."
רָמוֹת (ramot): Adjective, plural, "haughty" or "proud."
רָם (ram): Root, "high," "exalted," "proud."
לְשׁוֹן (leshon): Noun, singular, "tongue."
שָׁקֶר (sheker): Noun, singular, "falsehood" or "lying."
וְיָדַיִם (veyadaim): Conjunction "and" + noun, dual, "hands."
שֹׁפְכוֹת (shofechot): Verb, Qal participle, feminine plural, "shedding" or "pouring out."
שָׁפַךְ (shafach): Root, "to shed" or "to pour out."
דָּם (dam): Noun, singular, "blood."
נָקִי (naki): Adjective, singular, "innocent."
Translation: "Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood."
Proverbs 6:18
לֵב חֹרֵשׁ מַחְשְׁבוֹת אָוֶן רַגְלַיִם מְמַהֲרוֹת לָרוּץ לָרָעָה׃
לֵב (lev): Noun, singular, "heart."
חֹרֵשׁ (choresh): Verb, Qal participle, masculine singular, "devising" or "plotting."
חָרַשׁ (charash): Root, "to plow," "to devise."
מַחְשְׁבוֹת (machshavot): Noun, feminine plural, "thoughts" or "schemes."
מַחֲשָׁבָה (machshavah): Root, "thought," "device," "plan."
אָוֶן (aven): Noun, singular, "wickedness" or "iniquity."
רַגְלַיִם (raglaim): Noun, dual, "feet."
מְמַהֲרוֹת (memaharot): Verb, Piel participle, feminine plural, "hurrying."
מָהַר (mahar): Root, "to hasten," "to hurry."
לָרוּץ (larutz): Verb, Qal infinitive construct, "to run."
לָרָעָה (lara'ah): Preposition "to" + noun, singular, "evil."
Translation: "A heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil."
Proverbs 6:19
יָפִיחַ כְּזָבִים עֵד שָׁקֶר וּמְשַׁלֵּחַ מְדָנִים בֵּין אַחִים׃
יָפִיחַ (yafiach): Verb, Hiphil participle, masculine singular, "pours out" or "breathes."
פָּחַח (pachach): Root, "to breathe out," "to utter."
כְּזָבִים (kezavim): Noun, masculine plural, "lies" or "falsehoods."
עֵד (ed): Noun, singular, "witness."
שָׁקֶר (sheker): Noun, singular, "falsehood" or "lie."
וּמְשַׁלֵּחַ (umshalach): Conjunction "and" + verb, Piel participle, masculine singular, "causes" or "sends forth."
שָׁלַח (shalach): Root, "to send."
מְדָנִים (medanim): Noun, masculine plural, "strife" or "contention."
בֵּין (bein): Preposition, "between."
אַחִים (achim): Noun, masculine plural, "brothers" or "relatives."
Translation: "A false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."
Summary
By analyzing the Hebrew syntax and morphology, we can see the precise nature of the detestable behaviors listed in Proverbs 6:16-19. Each term carries significant meaning, emphasizing actions and attitudes that disrupt social harmony and violate God's principles. The Hebrew construction highlights the gravity of these sins, calling for self-examination and adherence to righteousness.
Each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling-not on the salvation of others.
Wise words from king Solomon.
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brightfame52
Well-known member
This not about faith and works, take that diversion somewhere else. This discussion is about the doctrine of unconditional election, election isnt conditioned on works, faith nothing.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Election to salvation is unconditional, its of Grace Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
civic
Well-known member
New Testament
1 Timothy 6:4
Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions
2 Timothy 2:14
Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin.
2 Timothy 2:23
But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.
Johann
Well-known member
- Election in Christ: The concept of election in the New Testament often emphasizes that believers are chosen or predestined "in Christ." This means that God's choosing or election of individuals is intimately connected with their relationship to Jesus Christ.
- Scriptural Basis:
- Ephesians 1:4-5: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."
- 2 Timothy 1:9: "He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."
- Romans 8:29-30: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Conclusion
Based on the New Testament teachings, the concept of election is indeed "in Christ." Believers are chosen or elected by God in and through their relationship with Jesus Christ. Therefore, your statement "Sorry no election is in Christ" is incorrect according to New Testament theology.- Isaiah 42:1 (quoted in the New Testament):
- Matthew 12:18: "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations."
- This passage from Isaiah is applied to Jesus, indicating that He is the chosen servant of God.
- Luke 9:35: "A voice came from the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.'"
- This is during the Transfiguration, where God the Father identifies Jesus as His chosen Son.
- 1 Peter 2:4: "As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—"
- Jesus is referred to as the living Stone, chosen by God.
- 1 Peter 2:6: "For in Scripture it says: 'See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.'"
- This verse again identifies Jesus as the chosen cornerstone, drawing from Old Testament imagery.
- Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
- While this verse doesn't use the word "elect" or "chosen," it emphasizes God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge in the life and mission of Jesus, which is closely related to the concept of being chosen by God.
Conclusion
These scriptures affirm that Jesus is indeed the "elect" or "chosen" one of God. The New Testament writers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, use Old Testament prophecies and direct divine revelation to declare Jesus as the chosen servant, Son, and cornerstone of God's redemptive plan.IN Messiah we are elect.
