Doctrine of Unconditional Election

synergy said:
The only Judaizer I know of us is our friend Jer15 who is an Ethnic Cleaner Judaizer. If you're surrounded by Judaizers in your congregation then you need to talk to them.

Notice the verse says "upon all them that believe". It doesn't say upon his elect. Therefore Belief comes before Righteousness and Regeneration.
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No problem, let us consider this phrase carefully.

"Unto all and upon all them that believe~

We agree the faith here is clearly our faith, as Paul returned to his introductory summary (1:16-17).

Our faith is the identifying and evidentiary mark that shows God’s righteousness upon us.

God’s righteousness is formally and forensically declared for believers (see 3:25-26).

The key point here is the repetitive use of all to classify all Jews and Gentiles together. The value is not on the two prepositions – unto and upon – but rather on the repeated all.

The message of the gospel and Scripture commands faith in Jesus Christ (Mark 1:15; Acts 8:37; 15:11; 16:31; 20:21; Gal 3:22; Ist John 3:23; etc., etc.).

The knowledge of and the assurance of eternal life begins with faith in Christ (John 20:31; Ist Jn 5:13; 2nd Peter 1:5). The very reason we have the written word of God, apart from God's testimony of spiritual truths we would never know, unless he had chosen another method to convey these truths to us, but he chose his written word preserved for us.

The scriptures are clear~Faith in Jesus Christ is the evidence of eternal life (John 5:24; 6:47; I John 5:4-5) ~not a condition on man's part.

There is no message of hope in Scripture to be held out for unbelievers (II Thess 1:8).

Again, faith is fruit of the Spirit, not a condition for the Spirit (Galatians 5:22; Luke 1:15; Isr Peer 1:21). Faith is the result of eternal and legal justification, rather than the condition or means.

Otherwise, the natural man who is at enmity against God and a condemned rebel must exercise faith as the condition!

We only obtain our faith through the righteousness of Jesus Christ who had perfect faith, and that's the very faith we live by in the flesh (2nd Peter 1:1; Galatians 2:20; etc.)

Faith follows regeneration, and regeneration must follow justification (Ist John 5:1). Those that believe are justified (passive, perfect), rather than shall be (Acts 13:39). Faith is an act of righteousness, and it must follow from righteousness (Ist John 3:7). We believe because Jesus Christ has already redeemed us from the law (Gal 4:4-6). Cornelius was accepted with God before he exercised faith in Christ (Acts 10:34-35).

Paul did not distinguish here between faith as evidence or faith as a condition for regeneration, but rather between faith in Christ and obedience to the law for justification.

The epistle of Romans, unlike that to Ephesus, does not deal much with regeneration; it must be assumed by the testimony and doctrine of the rest of the New Testament. However, the condition of all natural men just described (3:10-18) precludes decisional regeneration or decisional justification. Faith must originate with God.

The emphasis here is not the faith of Christ against our faith in Christ, but rather our faith in Christ’s work against any Jewish confidence in the works of Moses’ law.

Paul denied that faith is a work in Romans, for he was not opposing Arminians, who teach that God regenerates and justifies believers on the grounds of their faith. The epistle of Romans contrasts faith and law works; James profession and works.

Legal justification is God’s sovereign work (Rom 3;24; 4:5; 5:6-11,16-19; 8:29-34; 11:6). The gospel merely reveals justification (Rom 1:17; II Cor 5:18-21; 2nd Timothy 1:9-10).

Faith is our means of identification with Jesus Christ, whereby we know we have eternal life, are justified, and shall be justified in the sight of God in the great day to come.

Faith proves eternal life to oneself and others, so we preach faith in Christ (Ist Jn 5:13). To make our calling and election sure, we must believe … and more (2nd Peter 1:5-11). Paul taught conduct to lay hold on eternal life no different than faith (I Tim 6:12,19).

Faith will be set forth here and throughout Romans as a new principle, economy, system, “law,” basis, or so forth for hope of justification under the new covenant. Compare how works were the principle, economy, system, “law,” and basis for the old covenant.

Please consider: Paul used Romans for the nature of New Testament religion (faith vs. old covenant works), not the condition or means of regeneration or the ordo salutis of theologians. This same line of reasoning must be used to contrast the two covenants.
 
Red Baker said:
No problem, let us consider this phrase carefully.

"Unto all and upon all them that believe~

We agree the faith here is clearly our faith, as Paul returned to his introductory summary (1:16-17).

Our faith is the identifying and evidentiary mark that shows God’s righteousness upon us.

God’s righteousness is formally and forensically declared for believers (see 3:25-26).

The key point here is the repetitive use of all to classify all Jews and Gentiles together. The value is not on the two prepositions – unto and upon – but rather on the repeated all.
Click to expand...
Again, the verse says "upon all them that believe". It doesn't say upon his elect.
Red Baker said:
The message of the gospel and Scripture commands faith in Jesus Christ (Mark 1:15; Acts 8:37; 15:11; 16:31; 20:21; Gal 3:22; Ist John 3:23; etc., etc.).
Click to expand...
No kidding.
Red Baker said:
The knowledge of and the assurance of eternal life begins with faith in Christ (John 20:31; Ist Jn 5:13; 2nd Peter 1:5). The very reason we have the written word of God, apart from God's testimony of spiritual truths we would never know, unless he had chosen another method to convey these truths to us, but he chose his written word preserved for us.

The scriptures are clear~Faith in Jesus Christ is the evidence of eternal life (John 5:24; 6:47; I John 5:4-5) ~not a condition on man's part.
Click to expand...
If you understand conditional statements then you will understand that salvation is conditional on our belief. See Rom 10:9.

(Rom 10:9) that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Red Baker said:
There is no message of hope in Scripture to be held out for unbelievers (II Thess 1:8).
Click to expand...
No kidding.
Red Baker said:
Again, faith is fruit of the Spirit, not a condition for the Spirit (Galatians 5:22; Luke 1:15; Isr Peer 1:21). Faith is the result of eternal and legal justification, rather than the condition or means.

Otherwise, the natural man who is at enmity against God and a condemned rebel must exercise faith as the condition!

We only obtain our faith through the righteousness of Jesus Christ who had perfect faith, and that's the very faith we live by in the flesh (2nd Peter 1:1; Galatians 2:20; etc.)
Click to expand...
All verses prove that belief comes before Salvation ( Righteousness and Regeneration).
Red Baker said:
Faith follows regeneration, and regeneration must follow justification (Ist John 5:1). Those that believe are justified (passive, perfect), rather than shall be (Acts 13:39). Faith is an act of righteousness, and it must follow from righteousness (Ist John 3:7). We believe because Jesus Christ has already redeemed us from the law (Gal 4:4-6). Cornelius was accepted with God before he exercised faith in Christ (Acts 10:34-35).
Click to expand...
1 John 5:1 is already covered grammatically in the link below. Please stop regurgitating your poor grammatical claims.


In fact, I'll stop here until you do.stop your regurgitating of that which has been proven false already.
 
synergy said:
You and Red Baker failed miserably with Gal 6:12-14 and Rom 3:21-25 and now you want to go gallavanting across the entire Bible? Acts 13:48 has already been answered for. Search for it according to what @civic wrote about it. Which verse will you choose after that? Gen 1:1? And then each verse until the end of Revelations? Give me a break. :rolleyes:
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Just understand when you see believe in salvific contexts its serving as an evidence of having been elected and regenerated, never asacondition.
 
Johann said:
Did He made the whole kosmos alive?

Is faith a gift or not?


What kind of faith?


By saying THEY are TOTALLY blind [at the moment] you don't err and have the truth-Who gives us understanding re the Scriptures?
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You asked a number of questions but failed to address the point

Even in Ephesians 2 faith is shown to precede regeneration

but no the whole kosmos was not made alive

No faith is not the gift of Ephesians 2

Faith in Christ

The word of God gives us understanding
 
brightfame52 said:
@TomL

The word of God Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
Gift or not, faith without works is dead.
One's Calvinist presuppositions are exterminated when one reads and believes James 2.
I challenge you to read it and to comment about it.
 
synergy said:
Gift or not, faith without works is dead.
One's Calvinist presuppositions are exterminated when one reads and believes James 2.
I challenge you to read it and to comment about it.
Click to expand...
yes down goes their doctrine in James- no wonder Luther despised the book of James rofl- he knew it flew in the face of his heretical doctrines.
 
civic said:
yes down goes their doctrine in James- no wonder Luther despised the book of James rofl- he knew it flew in the face of his heretical doctrines.
Click to expand...
Kinda something like we Moderns do in real time-hey @civic?


Martin Luther, the seminal figure of the Protestant Reformation, did indeed have a complex and often critical view of the Book of James. His opinion is best understood within the context of his theological struggles and the development of his doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide).

Luther's Criticism of James​

  1. Perceived Contradiction with Paul:
    • Luther's primary concern was that James seemed to contradict the Apostle Paul's teachings on justification by faith alone. In particular, James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." Luther saw this as conflicting with Paul's assertion in Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
  2. "Epistle of Straw":
    • In his preface to the New Testament, Luther famously referred to James as an "epistle of straw" (German: "stroherne Epistel"), implying that it lacked the "gospel character" he found in Paul's letters. He wrote, "In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially those to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle, are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James's Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it."
  3. Lack of Explicit Gospel Content:
    • Luther also criticized James for what he perceived as a lack of explicit focus on Christ and the gospel. He felt that the letter did not present the gospel message clearly enough and focused too much on moral exhortation and ethical teachings.

Luther's Perspective in Context​

  • Historical and Theological Context:
    • Luther's views must be seen against the backdrop of his intense opposition to the Catholic Church's teachings on merit and works righteousness. He was fighting against what he saw as a system that relied on human works for salvation, which he believed undermined the sufficiency of faith in Christ.
  • Luther's Evolving View:
    • It is worth noting that Luther's views on James were not entirely static. While he maintained his critical stance, he did not remove James from his translation of the Bible. He included it in the New Testament, albeit with reservations about its theological emphasis.

Modern Protestant Views​

Many modern Protestant theologians and scholars have re-evaluated Luther's critique of James and have sought to understand the epistle within the broader context of the New Testament. They argue that James and Paul are not contradictory but complementary, addressing different aspects of the Christian life. Paul emphasizes the basis of justification (faith), while James emphasizes the evidence of that justification (works).

Conclusion​

Luther's critique of James was rooted in his theological battles and his quest to clarify the doctrine of justification by faith alone. While he saw James as less useful for his theological purposes, he did not exclude it from the canon, reflecting his complex relationship with the text. Over time, Protestant interpretation has sought to reconcile James with the broader New Testament message, recognizing the complementary nature of faith and works in the Christian life.

We are all battling I would say.
Johann.
 
brightfame52 said:
@TomL




The word of God Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
salvation is the gift

It is the only thing consistent with verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
 
Johann said:
Kinda something like we Moderns do in real time-hey @civic?


Martin Luther, the seminal figure of the Protestant Reformation, did indeed have a complex and often critical view of the Book of James. His opinion is best understood within the context of his theological struggles and the development of his doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide).

Luther's Criticism of James​

  1. Perceived Contradiction with Paul:
    • Luther's primary concern was that James seemed to contradict the Apostle Paul's teachings on justification by faith alone. In particular, James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." Luther saw this as conflicting with Paul's assertion in Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
  2. "Epistle of Straw":
    • In his preface to the New Testament, Luther famously referred to James as an "epistle of straw" (German: "stroherne Epistel"), implying that it lacked the "gospel character" he found in Paul's letters. He wrote, "In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially those to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle, are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James's Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it."
  3. Lack of Explicit Gospel Content:
    • Luther also criticized James for what he perceived as a lack of explicit focus on Christ and the gospel. He felt that the letter did not present the gospel message clearly enough and focused too much on moral exhortation and ethical teachings.

Luther's Perspective in Context​

  • Historical and Theological Context:
    • Luther's views must be seen against the backdrop of his intense opposition to the Catholic Church's teachings on merit and works righteousness. He was fighting against what he saw as a system that relied on human works for salvation, which he believed undermined the sufficiency of faith in Christ.
  • Luther's Evolving View:
    • It is worth noting that Luther's views on James were not entirely static. While he maintained his critical stance, he did not remove James from his translation of the Bible. He included it in the New Testament, albeit with reservations about its theological emphasis.

Modern Protestant Views​

Many modern Protestant theologians and scholars have re-evaluated Luther's critique of James and have sought to understand the epistle within the broader context of the New Testament. They argue that James and Paul are not contradictory but complementary, addressing different aspects of the Christian life. Paul emphasizes the basis of justification (faith), while James emphasizes the evidence of that justification (works).

Conclusion​

Luther's critique of James was rooted in his theological battles and his quest to clarify the doctrine of justification by faith alone. While he saw James as less useful for his theological purposes, he did not exclude it from the canon, reflecting his complex relationship with the text. Over time, Protestant interpretation has sought to reconcile James with the broader New Testament message, recognizing the complementary nature of faith and works in the Christian life.

We are all battling I would say.
Johann.
Click to expand...
Yes Paul and James are in perfect harmony and agreement with the teaching of Jesus.

If James should be removed so should Jesus teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. :) James got his teaching from Jesus.
 
TomL said:
salvation is the gift

It is the only thing consistent with verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
Click to expand...
The word of God Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
brightfame52 said:
The word of God Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
salvation is the gift

It is the only thing consistent with verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
 
Johann said:
Kinda something like we Moderns do in real time-hey @civic?


Martin Luther, the seminal figure of the Protestant Reformation, did indeed have a complex and often critical view of the Book of James. His opinion is best understood within the context of his theological struggles and the development of his doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide).

Luther's Criticism of James​

  1. Perceived Contradiction with Paul:
    • Luther's primary concern was that James seemed to contradict the Apostle Paul's teachings on justification by faith alone. In particular, James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." Luther saw this as conflicting with Paul's assertion in Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
  2. "Epistle of Straw":
    • In his preface to the New Testament, Luther famously referred to James as an "epistle of straw" (German: "stroherne Epistel"), implying that it lacked the "gospel character" he found in Paul's letters. He wrote, "In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially those to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle, are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James's Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it."
  3. Lack of Explicit Gospel Content:
    • Luther also criticized James for what he perceived as a lack of explicit focus on Christ and the gospel. He felt that the letter did not present the gospel message clearly enough and focused too much on moral exhortation and ethical teachings.

Luther's Perspective in Context​

  • Historical and Theological Context:
    • Luther's views must be seen against the backdrop of his intense opposition to the Catholic Church's teachings on merit and works righteousness. He was fighting against what he saw as a system that relied on human works for salvation, which he believed undermined the sufficiency of faith in Christ.
  • Luther's Evolving View:
    • It is worth noting that Luther's views on James were not entirely static. While he maintained his critical stance, he did not remove James from his translation of the Bible. He included it in the New Testament, albeit with reservations about its theological emphasis.

Modern Protestant Views​

Many modern Protestant theologians and scholars have re-evaluated Luther's critique of James and have sought to understand the epistle within the broader context of the New Testament. They argue that James and Paul are not contradictory but complementary, addressing different aspects of the Christian life. Paul emphasizes the basis of justification (faith), while James emphasizes the evidence of that justification (works).

Conclusion​

Luther's critique of James was rooted in his theological battles and his quest to clarify the doctrine of justification by faith alone. While he saw James as less useful for his theological purposes, he did not exclude it from the canon, reflecting his complex relationship with the text. Over time, Protestant interpretation has sought to reconcile James with the broader New Testament message, recognizing the complementary nature of faith and works in the Christian life.

We are all battling I would say.
Johann.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, Luther also didn't like Revelation. I don't remember why he didn't. I love Revelation, myself.
 
brightfame52 said:
Faith is the Gift of God, not of ourselves, its plain as day stated Eph 2:8
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment that faith is a gift, just for argument's sake.
Faith without works is still dead.
One's Calvinist presuppositions are exterminated when one reads and believes James 2.
I challenge you to read it and to comment about it.
 
synergy said:
Let's imagine for a moment that faith is a gift, just for argument's sake.
Faith without works is still dead.
One's Calvinist presuppositions are exterminated when one reads and believes James 2.
I challenge you to read it and to comment about it.
Click to expand...
down goes fraizer
 

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