You're forgetting about faith. Tell us in your words how faith factors into God's Grace. Also, take into account that faith without good works is dead.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Rockson
Well-known member
So you're using that verse to support your believe that one does not have eternal LIFE but they have LIFE enough to get them to receive full eternal life? False and contrived outside of the Biblical text.
The phrases, "the savour of death unto death" and "life unto life" are very similar to Paul's use of "faith unto faith" in Rm 17:1. It meant when one choses to embrace a life of faith it will lead you progressively into different levels of faith achievements. Now if you look at "death to death" the same basic thing. If it's like you say one is dead meaning to you no spiritual consciousness or awareness then there would be no such thing as death to death. So if one chooses to reject life it will lead them progressively into a life of pain sorrow and grief. Life to life means when one chooses to embrace LIFE it will lead them progressively to walking in the full blessings of God or to see the exceeding great and precious promises of God to become manifested.
To be very clear, here's how I understand 2nd Corinthians 2:15,16~maybe I did not make myself clear, if not, then I apologize.
2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
God’ s true ministers, preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, are a sweet savour to God in all hearers. The savour is not to the saved or perishing, but rather it is to God because of the saved or perishing. Gospel preachers are a sweet aroma to God of Jesus Christ, for they preach Him to all kinds of men. The savour “in them that are saved” is a not savour of them that are saved by our teaching/ preaching; but it is a savour of them that are already saved by the power of God (John 8:47; Acts 13:48; Ist Cor 1:18,24) God is honored by the smoke of the torment of his enemies arising from the lake of fire (Rev 14:10; 19:3).2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient/or these things?
Many judge themselves unworthy of eternal life: only the elect believe the gospel (Acts 13:46-48). God’s ministers labor with the gospel; but God must give the increase (I Cor 3:5-9). The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost (Ist Cor 1:18,22-24; 2:14-15; 2nd Cor 4:3-4). Until a man is born of God, he cannot hear the gospel (John 3:3; 8:47; 10:26). The gospel only saves in a practical way of imparting knowledge to the saved man (I Cor 1:21).No man will ever perish without having had opportunities to recognize God (Rom 1:20). We are bound to give thanks always for the Spirit and the truth of the gospel (2nd Thess 2:13). Until God grants repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, men cannot and will repent (2nd Tim 2:24-26). Paul's greatly desire was to preach the gospel to saved saints, for they only could truly benefit by it (Rom 1:8-17).
The gospel is never the savour to God of death unto life, as 99% of people think and preach today. It is the savour of life unto life in them that are saved, because they manifest they were already alive. It is the savour of death unto death in the lost, because they manifest they were already lost. The savour of “death unto death” is the revealing of a dead soul by a dead reaction of a rebel. The Jews preferred a sign; the Greeks preferred wisdom; but the called Jesus Christ (Ist Cor 1:22-24). Just as I said above~The gospel brings life and immortality to light; it does not bring life and immortality (2nd Tim 1:9-10).
The sufficiency is the comprehension or ability of God that makes the difference in a man’s ministerial labors, which Paul teaches elsewhere and in the following context (Ist Cor 1:22-24; 2:14-15; 2nd Cor 3:1-6; 4:3-4; 2md Tim 2:24-26). The Corinthians were proof of God’s sufficiency in writing in their hearts and making Paul an able minister.
It's all about grace and faith, not about calvinist presuppositions.
The Calvinist interpretation of golden chain of salvation is horribly skewed
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I agree with how you explained "foreknew". It's not "what He foreknew", it's "whom He foreknew". And there are those whom He foreknew as opposed to those whom He did not foreknow, that is, "I never knew you". So, as I said, those whom He foreknew would be called, justified, and glorified. So it was as good as done in distant past, from God's perspective.
Sorry that is a fabrication. All those verses show faith precedes being given spiritual life
you simply ignore that
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
which requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
you simply deny the evidence and reverse what it shows
You totally ignored this p;oint
We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you."
Tom, you are not interesting in knowing truth, you just ignore everything others say, and then like a dumb parrot, just repeat the same words over and over again, for that's all you are capable of doing, it seems thus far with me.
Amazing you can quote from such scriptures as Ephesians 2 and truly believe that man's faith is the means of his regeneration, and his faith precedes his spiritual birth.
Let me once more look at Ephesians 2 for the last time with you to prove how deep your blindness truly is.
Before I start, you never said if you believe that man's in not in bondage to sin and the devil, I asked you directly, but no response, maybe you forgot, but I would like to hear your position, pro or against, from you or some of your friends, or both would even be better.
I am starting back at Ephesians 1:19 where I must start to understand the full impact of Paul's teaching concerning the new birth.
Ephesians 1:19-2:8,9~And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."Tom, you and your friends (the ones always amending you and you them) are totally at the moment blinded to the truths taught in these scriptures. Now, if you believe otherwise, then let me wait on expounding these scriptures and let you or them go first, then I'll prove (maybe not to you, but those who are a lover of God's truths) your errors. Go ahead give your understanding of these few verses in you own words.
You folks keep using the word Calvinist, when I'm not a Calvinist in the true meaning of Calvinism, I have made that very clear. Neither do I defend Calvinism, but the scriptures and when Calvinism has truth then I in my course of action defend them. Arminianism I will never defend since it is 100% another gospel, not even close.
Also, I very seldom have ever used the word Arminianism in a negative connotation, because if one preaches the truth all "ism" will fall before the truth just as Dagon fell before the ark of God. 1st Samuel 5:1-4. I do not need to used Arminianism to give any support to the truth, the scriptures will provide all the support we shall ever need.
Prove you gospel with the word of God, which you can never do. The gospel of Jesus Christ, is a gospel of pure grace toward unworthy sinner who could not help themselves.
Hebrews 8:6-13~"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
The New Covenant is a covenant enforced by two immutable acts of God: His promises of grace and his oath to bring it to fruition. The same promise and oath given to Abraham concerning Isaac.
Let us talk about this New Covenant~you folks are still trying to keep the old covenant alive by your work gospel.
Wrong, it is all about Jesus Christ, and the redemption that he secured for God's elect by himself~his faith, obedience and righteousness.
Galatians 6:12-14~"As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."
Romans 3:21-25~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Lets see (Red Baker repeat with name change)Tom, you are not interesting in knowing truth, you just ignore everything others say, and then like a dumb parrot, just repeat the same words over and over again, for that's all you are capable of doing, it seems thus far with me.
Amazing you can quote from such scriptures as Ephesians 2 and truly believe that man's faith is the means of his regeneration, and his faith precedes his spiritual birth.
Let me once more look at Ephesians 2 for the last time with you to prove how deep your blindness truly is.
Before I start, you never said if you believe that man's in not in bondage to sin and the devil, I asked you directly, but no response, maybe you forgot, but I would like to hear your position, pro or against, from you or some of your friends, or both would even be better.
I am starting back at Ephesians 1:19 where I must start to understand the full impact of Paul's teaching concerning the new birth.
Ephesians 1:19-2:8,9~And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Tom, you and your friends (the ones always amending you and you them) are totally at the moment blinded to the truths taught in these scriptures. Now, if you believe otherwise, then let me wait on expounding these scriptures and let you or them go first, then I'll prove (maybe not to you, but those who are a lover of God's truths) your errors. Go ahead give your understanding of these few verses in you own words.
Red Baker you are not interesting in knowing truth, you just ignore everything others say, and then like a dumb parrot, just repeat the same words over and over again, for that's all you are capable of doing, it seems thus far with me.
Let us begin by noting you failed to address any of the verses posted
You simply run elsewhere and indulge in Ad Hominem. (I repeated using your name to show how senseless it is)
. Unlike you however I will deal with your single passages
Ephesians 1:19-2:8,9~And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."Though I quoted it myself to show it does not support your view
Yes he made us alive when we were dead in trespasses and Sin and he calls it salvation
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
but the passage does not end there
rather we see
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
it is through faith
Therefore we are not made alive (regenerated) - saved without faith
Even if you want to argue about how faith comes you still have to admit faith precedes regeneration
So Red Baker (Red Baker repeat with name change)
you and your friends (the ones always amending you and you them) are totally at the moment blinded to the truths taught in these scriptures. Now, if you believe otherwise, then let me wait on expounding these scriptures and let you or them go first, then I'll prove (maybe not to you, but those who are a lover of God's truths) your errors. Go ahead give your understanding of these few verses in you own words.
PS why don't you actually address the verses I posted. Your single passage failed to establish your view
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Whether you want to be known as a Calvinist or not is irrelevant
The fact is the topic being addressed is the Calvinist viewpoint
Can you tell me what is the Middle Voice?
Did He made the whole kosmos alive?
Is faith a gift or not?
What kind of faith?
By saying THEY are TOTALLY blind [at the moment] you don't err and have the truth-Who gives us understanding re the Scriptures?
The only Judaizer I know of us is our friend Jer15 who is an Ethnic Cleaner Judaizer. If you're surrounded by Judaizers in your congregation then you need to talk to them.
Notice the verse says "upon all them that believe". It doesn't say upon his elect. Therefore Belief comes before Righteousness and Regeneration.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Believing is an evidence of election not a requirement. The ones believing had been previously in the eternal election of God ordained to eternal life Acts13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
You and Red Baker failed miserably with Gal 6:12-14 and Rom 3:21-25 and now you want to go gallavanting across the entire Bible? Acts 13:48 has already been answered for. Search for it according to what @civic wrote about it. Which verse will you choose after that? Gen 1:1? And then each verse until the end of Revelations? Give me a break.
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What needs to be done is someone needs to collate all anti-heretical explanations of every calvinist proof text. And send a gift copy to the Calvinist False Prophets James White and Matt Slick.You and Red Baker failed miserably with Gal 6:12-14 and Rom 3:21-25 and now you want to go gallavanting across the entire Bible? Acts 13:48 has already been answered for. Search for it according to what @civic wrote about it. Which verse will you choose after that? Gen 1:1? And then each verse until the end of Revelations? Give me a break.
civic
Well-known member
dittoYou and Red Baker failed miserably with Gal 6:12-14 and Rom 3:21-25 and now you want to go gallavanting across the entire Bible? Acts 13:48 has already been answered for. Search for it according to what @civic wrote about it. Which verse will you choose after that? Gen 1:1? And then each verse until the end of Revelations? Give me a break.
