Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[brightfame52]

Faith without works is dead.

Next

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[brightfame52]

you continue ignoring this

you ignored this

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

Sorry no according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

your views are simply unbiblical

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Sorry that is heresy

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sorry that is heresy

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But if election is to those whom He foreknew, then it was as good as done from the perspective of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry no according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

your views are simply unbiblical

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

Nope not in Christ

according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

your views are simply unbiblical

 

[TomL]

But if election is to those whom He foreknew, then it was as good as done from the perspective of God.

But it would not be unconditional

and it would become real only in time

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

But it would not be unconditional

and it would become real only in time

28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; 29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

"Whom He did foreknow" or "Whom He foreknew" is a subset of all mankind. If one has to specify "whom He foreknew", there must be those "whom He did not foreknow". So it is a done deal in the past from the perspective of God. It cannot change in real time.

In addition, the following can only be true if God is sovereign over everything that happens on earth: "And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;" or "28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

God can't cause all things to work together for good to those who love God unless God is in control over all things.

 

[TomL]

28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; 29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

"Whom He did foreknow" or "Whom He foreknew" is a subset of all mankind. If one has to specify "whom He foreknew", there must be those "whom He did not foreknow". So it is a done deal in the past from the perspective of God. It cannot change in real time.

In addition, the following can only be true if God is sovereign over everything that happens on earth: "And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;" or "28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

God can't cause all things to work together for good to those who love God unless God is in control over all things.

Lets not ignore the point. This is a promise to those who love God. If you read the passage it is those God knew formerly
We can see this by all the past tense verbs especially their glorification. They have since died and been glorified

Romans 8:28–30 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Cor 8:3). The word implies a love relationship between one person and another.

1 Corinthians 8:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

see can see a further use of the term foreknow

Romans 11 (KJV 1900) — 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

it is a reference to those known by God previously.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope not in Christ

according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

your views are simply unbiblical

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

Nope not in Christ

according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

they were without Christ

your views are simply unbiblical and contrary to the word of God

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry that is heresy

Amazing~all he did was quote 2nd Timothy 1:9 and a couple of more scriptures, and you called that heresy.

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

It is impossible to reason with men of this nature, impossible.

 

[Red Baker]

Nope not in Christ

according to scripture

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

your views are simply unbiblical

When will you ever learn to at least attempt to give scriptures their proper sense? Never? Have you never read Nehemiah 8:8 and labor to practice as holy men of God of old did?

Paul is speaking about the Gentiles as a nation, not as individuals, of which many of them were indeed chosen in Christ, placed in Christ for him to secured their eternal redemption, which he perfectly fulfilled.

 

[Red Baker]

Lets not ignore the point. This is a promise to those who love God. If you read the passage it is those God knew formerly
We can see this by all the past tense verbs especially their glorification. They have since died and been glorified

Romans 8:28–30 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Cor 8:3). The word implies a love relationship between one person and another.

1 Corinthians 8:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

see can see a further use of the term foreknow

Romans 11 (KJV 1900) — 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

it is a reference to those known by God previously.

Without going into depth concerning your post, I will only say this: I do not disagree with you on your definition of foreknew~and believe the scriptures will support it~nevertheless, you still missed the truth of Romans 8:28-29, your emphasis on them loving God, as though it was in their power to do so, is false.

We love him because he first loved us in Christ!

1st John 4:10-19~"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us."

We did not chose him, but he chose us to love!

John 15:16~"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

To even think we chose to love him, would go against hundreds of scriptures that said otherwise.

 

[Red Baker]

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

Again, this has been addressed, but it went into one ear and right out the other.

I agree, that regeneration is given life where there is death! It is a spiritual resurrection, called in the word of God the first resurrection upon which the second death has no power over.

John 5:24,25~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

So, by definition, life means you now have power to see, hear, and believe, but not until spiritual life is imparted by the life given voice of the Son of God.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

So wrong~the will of God and his free grace is the only source of the new birth, based on the redemption secured by Jesus Christ...his faith and obedience/righteousness; etc. Regenation is bringing elect sons of God into the visible family of God on earth~it is the manifestation of God's secret will being unfolded before our eyes, one member at a time being revealed, in due time as God's eternal purposes are unfolded before our eyes.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

So wrong again. The gospel does not bring spiritual life, it only manifest where there is spiritual life.

2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

Do you hear what Paul is saying? I think not. The gospel brings life and immortality to light through the preaching of the gospel! It can cannot give life to dead sinner, only the power of God can, but, it does two things, it will manifest where there is both death and spiritual life!

Some will cleave and others will resist its truths.

2nd Corinthians 2:16,17~"To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

I have an appointment this morning later....

 

[synergy]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

BTW thats also why Election is unconditional, Eph 2:11-12 describes the elect in their depravity, so faith wasn't a condition !

Our vocation is unconditionally chosen from the beginning, not our salvation. Read 2 Th 2:13.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

 

[brightfame52]

Our vocation is unconditionally chosen from the beginning, not our salvation. Read 2 Th 2:13.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[civic]

Lets not ignore the point. This is a promise to those who love God. If you read the passage it is those God knew formerly
We can see this by all the past tense verbs especially their glorification. They have since died and been glorified

Romans 8:28–30 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Cor 8:3). The word implies a love relationship between one person and another.

1 Corinthians 8:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

see can see a further use of the term foreknow

Romans 11 (KJV 1900) — 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

it is a reference to those known by God previously.

Exactly !!!

Foreknowledge is a stumbling block for the calvinist. So is faith is salvation. For that matter we can add the gospel too.

 

[synergy]

duplicate